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Remember the Evo vs STI article

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Remember the Evo vs STI article

Postby Greypatch » February 16th, 2005, 10:35 am

here is a part that was not posted...

from Car & Driver .com

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp ... le_id=9043
Why Do These Similar Cars Feel So Different?

BY LARRY WEBSTER
February 2005


The Evo MR and the WRX STi feel very different when evaluated one against the other on the track, so we did a few more handling tests to see if we could gather some data that would shed light on our seat-of-the-pants assessment.

First off, although these cars appear to be quite similar (turbocharged four-cylinder engines, four-door bodies, four-wheel drive, limited-slip front and rear differentials, etc.), there is a major difference in the way the four-wheel-drive systems distribute engine torque.


The Subaru employs an electromagnetic clutch on the center differential. Under normal driving conditions, say you're just cruising down the interstate, the diff clutch is disengaged, and 65 percent of the engine power is routed to the rear wheels, with the remaining 35 to the front (a 35/65 front-to-rear split). The car's engine computer adjusts that center-diff clutch, based on information from the yaw-rate and throttle-position sensors, and can send as much as 50 percent of engine torque to the front wheels. So the Subaru varies the torque split between 50/50 and 35/65. The driver can also manually select the torque split via a center-console switch.

The Mitsubishi, on the other hand, never sends the majority of engine torque to the rear axle. Instead, it can send all the engine torque to the front wheels or 50 percent of it (using an electrohydraulic clutch on the center diff). So the Evo varies the front-to-rear torque split between 100/0 and 50/50. In addition to the yaw-rate and throttle-position sensors, the Evo has a steering-wheel-angle sensor that also provides the computer with information.
Now, we're simplifying things a little because it would take pages to describe exactly when those center-diff clutches operate, but basically, the aim of these systems is to make the car go where the driver wants. For sporty cars like these, four-wheel drive can simply be another tool in the engineer's box that improves handling, and the computer algorithm that controls these center diffs is tuned in much the same way as the car's suspension. Four-wheel drive is another interconnected variable—like shocks, springs, anti-roll bars, and tires—that affects vehicle handling.

Judging by the Subaru's four-wheel-drive system, we initially figured the STi would be better at the racetrack simply because putting more torque to the rear wheels frees the front tires to do their main job, which is turning the car. The Subaru also has better weight distribution (58.2/41.8 versus 60.7/39.3 for the Evo), which should improve its handling.

But despite the STi's power-to-weight advantage, it wasn't the faster car at GingerMan, as Swan reports. The STi's best lap time was 1:39.15 and the Evo's was 1:38.88.

To dig a little deeper, we decided to perform some tests that go beyond our usual procedures, but before we went back to the track, we put both cars on Kumho Ecsta MX tires to remove that variable from our results. And even though these cars have driver-operated switches that can alter the function of the center diffs, we did all our testing in the automatic mode.


First, let's talk about the split-traction-surface test. We used Bosch's proving ground in nearby Flat Rock, Michigan. That facility has lanes of pavement running side by side with tiled surfaces, ideal for measuring varying traction levels. For this test, we put the left-side tires on a tiled lane that simulates driving on packed snow and the right-side tires on dry concrete. Then we accelerated from 5 to 50 mph. We also performed the same test with all four tires on dry concrete.

The Subaru accelerated at the same rate on both the dry section and the split-traction surface, whereas the Mitsubishi was 0.4 second slower on the slippery section than it was on the dry.

That test tells us the Subaru's four-wheel-drive system is a little better at sending torque to the wheels with traction.


Next we ran increasing and decreasing slaloms. Here, the cars were close, but the STi had a significant 2.2-mph-faster run through the decreasing slalom. So far, the Subaru was looking pretty good, and we were starting to wonder if perhaps GingerMan was a track that suited the Evolution but not the STi.

That thinking led us to DaimlerChrysler's 1.7-mile evaluation and handling loop in Chelsea, Michigan. It's a little like GingerMan in that it has a few long, constant-radius turns, but it also has a high-speed sweeper that can be taken at more than 100 mph.

We did two four-lap sessions in each car, and the STi was always quicker. The margin, however, was a scant 0.15 second. We also timed the cars over the tightest and slowest half of the track and found that both went through that section at an identical 52.80 seconds.

The numbers don't tell half the story, and this extra testing only reinforced what we learned during the comparo. The Subaru understeers more than the Evo, and that hurts its corner-entry and midcorner speeds. But the STi is extremely good at accelerating out of turns. And in some situations where stability was the name of the game, as in the decreasing-slalom exercise and on high-speed turns, the Subaru had the advantage.

The Evo felt quite a bit livelier, and drivers could rotate the car easier, which meant getting on the gas sooner than in the Subaru.

The Mitsu's neutral handling, however, was only able to overcome the Subaru's gutsy motor at one track. And we think some subtle chassis tuning on the STi would likely make it quicker everywhere. The tuning may be something as easy as an air-pressure adjustment. But that's tough to say without testing, so maybe we'll have to borrow these cars again and head back to the track.



Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution MR Subaru Impreza WRX STi

street start, 5-50 mph, dry pavement 5.0 4.7
street start, 5-50 mph, split-traction surfaces 5.4 4.7
roadholding 300-ft skidpad, g 0.92 0.90
increasing slalom*, mph 60.9 60.4
decreasing slalom*, mph 57.2 59.4
lap time, sec/mph 75.20/81.4 75.05/81.5
autocross time, sec 52.8 52.8
*This 938-foot slalom consists of 10 gates, each of which is six feet longer and spaced three feet farther apart so that it becomes two different courses when run in two directions. In the increasing direction, the car is accelerating, so there is weight transfer to the rear axle. Conversely, in the decreasing direction, the car is slowing and loading the front-tire contact patch.

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Postby Duane 3NE 2NR » February 16th, 2005, 11:34 am

interesting that the Suby can split more power to the rear wheels and it still has all that understeer

I would love to try driving the increasing/decreasing slalom though!!!!

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Postby Greypatch » February 16th, 2005, 11:50 am

interesting aint it...

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Postby cheese pie » February 16th, 2005, 12:21 pm

intresting

now which will be better for trini roads :?:

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Postby InDeForest » February 16th, 2005, 12:39 pm

Strange, MOST subarus have a torque distribution thats closer to the Evo, with a 50/50 to 90/10 front/rear, I guess that 35/65 is just that 6 speed with the DCCD

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Postby Yeo » February 16th, 2005, 12:42 pm

now which will be better for trini roads

The Evo felt quite a bit livelier, and drivers could rotate the car easier

:mrgreen:

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Postby Sanctifier » February 16th, 2005, 12:52 pm

patch remember that the Car & Driver article (Feb '05) was on the US spec Sti & Evo 8.

The Sport Compact Car (Jan '05) article was on the UK spec Evo 8 MR FQ300, and the JDM STi Spec C. This Spec C has a 3" longer wheel-base (making it easier to rotate), lower front roll centre (reduced understeer), revised spring rates & shocks, DCCD centre diff with up to 65% rear torque bias (better than Evo's ACD, which only allows a max of 50% torque split to rear wheels).. and the most important... a front SureTrac (gearless LSD) differential.
Similar to the Evo front helical (TorSen style) LSD that I always talk about.

This last one is what puts it over the top (together with all the other mods) and allows it to out-handle the UK Evo.
My 1 1/2 cents. :D

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Postby Tsuchiya » February 16th, 2005, 1:36 pm

Yeo wrote:
now which will be better for trini roads

The Evo felt quite a bit livelier, and drivers could rotate the car easier

:mrgreen:


...funny thing is the more livelier,is the more you'll see them on the back of a flatbed lookng like a rally Monte Carlo parts car...

ppl tend to lose control of the evo more than the sube :roll: better drivers needed :wink:

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Postby R. Mutt » February 16th, 2005, 2:24 pm

I disagree...every one who has driven an evo can tell you that it is easy to drive...you point and go...simple as that. Look at how Jeremy Clarkson drifted the car with one finger. But you're right about one thing...better drivers needed..because you have to really be pushing the limit and/or can't drive to crash an evo...it's one of the easiest cars to drive...the electronics handle everything and make you look like you actually know how to drive.

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Postby Sanctifier » February 16th, 2005, 2:54 pm

Post the Clarkson url (FQ400 against the Lambo) for him to see. :shock:
That and the other one (with Tiff in the Evo 6 TME) should make him a believer. :lol: :D

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Postby R. Mutt » February 16th, 2005, 2:55 pm

Tsuchiya downloads alot of videos I believe...u should have seen it already...but let him reply first.

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Postby wagon r » February 16th, 2005, 6:27 pm

^i'll call him and tell him to post it here later.

.....just called him and he said he have to look for it.

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Postby Tsuchiya » February 16th, 2005, 10:38 pm

R. Mutt wrote:I disagree...every one who has driven an evo can tell you that it is easy to drive...you point and go...simple as that. Look at how Jeremy Clarkson drifted the car with one finger. But you're right about one thing...better drivers needed..because you have to really be pushing the limit and/or can't drive to crash an evo...it's one of the easiest cars to drive...the electronics handle everything and make you look like you actually know how to drive.


why always fightin ah negro down :?: :roll: :wink:
i meant it as alot of the ppl are not 'drivers'...for example; you driving ur evo7 with AYC,you hustle into a decreasing radius corner,which is also fairly blind.at the last moment sumthin causes you to hit the brakes.its understood that the tail would get loose right? a person wit some gas in dey blood would countersteer and probably ease off,then tap the brakes not only to slow the car but also maintain control... a non-'driver' would panic and just standup on the brakes and the car would slide out of control,maybe even spin out...
And alot of ppl who feel they can drive go out and buy these cars,have a moment and then we see their car on a flatbed.

the scoobies induce understeer to make the line of out-of-control that much harder to cross,thats why i said that you'd see more evos wrecked than subarus..........

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Postby Sanctifier » February 16th, 2005, 11:20 pm

Tsuchiya wrote:...for example; you driving ur evo7 with AYC,you hustle into a decreasing radius corner,which is also fairly blind.at the last moment sumthin causes you to hit the brakes.its understood that the tail would get loose right? a person wit some gas in dey blood would countersteer and probably ease off,then tap the brakes not only to slow the car but also maintain control... a non-'driver' would panic and just standup on the brakes and the car would slide out of control,maybe even spin out...
And alot of ppl who feel they can drive go out and buy these cars,have a moment and then we see their car on a flatbed.
the scoobies induce understeer to make the line of out-of-control that much harder to cross,thats why i said that you'd see more evos wrecked than subarus..........

Ahm Tsuchiya that theory sounds allright as a basic generalisation, but there's a flaw in it.
First understeer is not the stable "safety feature" that you believe, even for the inexperienced driver IMO.
In extremis
(at the limit) all it encourages is a serious front end collision, when the front widens the desired line; causing very expensive damage to A/C evaperator, intercooler, radiator, turbo & manifold, etc. etc. :roll:
It's far better IMHO to "dial out" most of the brain-dead understeer, and replace it with some good old fashioned improved suspension geometry, and better rims & tyres.
Something that promotes higher levels of adhesion, quicker more balanced braking, higher cornering speeds (at the limit) etc.
Then your motoring public will be safer all the time; even the inexperienced ones :!:

In any case Subaru themselves have taken that very course of action :!:
The new JDM Spec C chassis seems to be the forerunner for bigger and better things for models based on the new chassis.
Wheelbase 3" longer (easier to rotate), lower front roll-centre (reduced understeer), revise spring and damper rates (better adhesion), front SureTrac LSD, DCCD, rear LSD, (all reducing understeer, promoting quicker turn-in, etc. etc.)
This now significantly reduces the dreaded understeer, and even more important, now gives the Spec C a handling advantage over the UK Evo FQ300. (Sport Compact Car - Page 82.)

Somehow I don't think that this will lead to "plenty Subbies ending up on flatbed tow trucks" either. :wink:
My 2 cents. :D

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Postby scientist » February 16th, 2005, 11:27 pm

1. the Spec C is 340 HP....compared to the 300 of the FQ300. Ever notice the subies always have more power when bein compared to the evos?

Tsuchiya wrote:
Yeo wrote:
now which will be better for trini roads

The Evo felt quite a bit livelier, and drivers could rotate the car easier

:mrgreen:


...funny thing is the more livelier,is the more you'll see them on the back of a flatbed lookng like a rally Monte Carlo parts car...

ppl tend to lose control of the evo more than the sube :roll: better drivers needed :wink:


Suprisingly u more find STi's being crashed...u must look out for insurance salvages...u find tons of WRXs and STis compared to evos.

Each magazine reviewing those cars give broadly different oppinions...the american magazines are the worst

Eg. They said the STi is by far the better handling car and the evo exhibits understeer?... :shock:

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Postby R. Mutt » February 16th, 2005, 11:49 pm

Is the hot blood ones that tend to not know what they are doing...calm people tend to drive performance cars well because they are sensitive to feedback and are willing to adjust their style to suit...

You ever notce the men that drive those cars are real mellow people.
I agree with you on the inexperienced drivers tendancey to react to a blind decreasing radius corner

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Postby WadadliX » February 17th, 2005, 12:19 am

i dunno what to believe :| ...but thinkin about it i have seen more written off evo's in Antigua than sti's...comin to think about it i cannot recall ever seein a damaged impreza. maybe the they r jus better drivers :D

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Postby Tsuchiya » February 17th, 2005, 4:29 am

First understeer is not the stable "safety feature" that you believe, even for the inexperienced driver IMO.

let say for example a woman driving...when she take the corner with an understeer-inducing car,to me,the first thing she'll do is panic and just turn the steering more.
for an oversteering car,she'd panic and slam the brakes,and not come off til the car stops,probably causing the car to spin.

allyuh understand :?: :| its just that alot of ppl,most ppl rather,cannot properly handle those kinds of situations.

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Postby Sanctifier » February 17th, 2005, 9:35 am

Tsuchiya wrote:...she'd panic and slam the brakes,and not come off til the car stops,probably causing the car to spin.
allyuh understand :?: :| its just that alot of ppl,most ppl rather,cannot properly handle those kinds of situations.

Exactly... so if all cars had better handling, less understeer, etc., then instead of running off the road (understeer) or spinning (oversteer) the better balance would allow the inexperienced driver to apply brakes and come to a safe stop.

Also the better handling will instil more confidence in all drivers, reducing the tendancy to panic in the first place. Let's face it, everyone makes mistakes when driving, but better handling cars will reduce the accidents they cause.
Applying the understeer blanket is not the answer; it's just an economical alternative to doing it right in the first place.
(Better handling is safer, but more expen$ive for the OEM...
But both excessive understeer and oversteer can kill you. How much is your life worth :?:
My 1 1/2 cents. :D

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Postby wagon r » February 17th, 2005, 10:04 am

^^i understand where yuh coming from but at the end of the day i still boils down to the driver.

you, me and most of the gear heads in here would know what to do, but the "jump in the car and bounce starter" driver is where the problem lies.

that's why all the major car makers develop systems to "protect" these drivers, and switches to take them off for our kinda driving. :P

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Postby Greypatch » February 17th, 2005, 10:17 am

as usual sanctifier your comments are most informative

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Postby Greypatch » February 17th, 2005, 10:22 am


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Postby Sanctifier » May 28th, 2005, 12:19 pm

Bump, especially for the driving techniques. Thanks patch :D

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Postby MadCrix » May 28th, 2005, 4:11 pm

the electronics handle everything and make you look like you actually know how to drive.



now finally that explains it

duane boy yuh drop a couple of points dey man :lol: :lol:

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