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**Clarity vs "LOUD"**

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C33_RB20DET
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Re: **Clarity vs "LOUD"**

Postby C33_RB20DET » May 24th, 2014, 1:56 pm

I understand what you are saying however it is my belief that it is not how many competitions one enters that dictates ones understanding of musical and audio harmony be itby ear or electronic devices. as for measuring distortion frequency to frequency you are speaking about a class sound quality system. that is part of my point that maby installers dont go through that or don't even know how in the first place.

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Re: **Clarity vs "LOUD"**

Postby Sully » May 27th, 2014, 6:28 am

C33_RB20DET wrote:Now I am aware that many car audio tuners do this by ear and some more than others have it pretty close. However with electronics there is nothing like pretty close, it is DEAD ON EXACT.


This is your first mistake right there. You can tune a system with a scope, and an RTA, but it will ALWAYS require adjustment by listening to it and tuning by ear.

It doesn't take an audiophile to hear the difference with poorly recorded formats. You just need to be willing to accept what you hear, and discern the differences albeit subtle. Going in with a bias of "this is an expensive system so it must sound good" is your biggest pitfall.

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Re: **Clarity vs "LOUD"**

Postby C33_RB20DET » May 27th, 2014, 10:43 pm

Sully wrote:
C33_RB20DET wrote:Now I am aware that many car audio tuners do this by ear and some more than others have it pretty close. However with electronics there is nothing like pretty close, it is DEAD ON EXACT.


This is your first mistake right there. You can tune a system with a scope, and an RTA, but it will ALWAYS require adjustment by listening to it and tuning by ear.

It doesn't take an audiophile to hear the difference with poorly recorded formats. You just need to be willing to accept what you hear, and discern the differences albeit subtle. Going in with a bias of "this is an expensive system so it must sound good" is your biggest pitfall.



I totally agree with you because no matter how much expensive equipment you have or use to tune you are correct to say that you still have to tune by ear but this tuning by ear differs from person to person as to what exactly they like to hear eg. someone may like more highs and another may like less highs but more bass etc.. However an O-Scope and other instrument help the installer to tune the physics of the system better pertaining to distortion, gains clipping etc.

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Re: **Clarity vs "LOUD"**

Postby meccalli » May 28th, 2014, 2:21 am

I dunno about that one, its about reproducing audio as accurately as possible to the original as it was meant to be heard and created to sound. I can't say they mix that hi hat too low so lemme pump 15k to the point where everything is blissfully lispy because it appeals to me. referencing source material on a nice pair of cans or accurate house monitors is gold when it comes to getting that myriad of components and factors to come together in harmony.

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Re: **Clarity vs "LOUD"**

Postby Firewall » May 28th, 2014, 7:15 am

meccalli wrote:I can't say they mix that hi hat too low so lemme pump 15k to the point where everything is blissfully lispy because it appeals to me.


Who do you build your system for if you not tuning to how YOU like the sound?

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Re: **Clarity vs

Postby C33_RB20DET » May 28th, 2014, 8:42 am

Firewall wrote:
meccalli wrote:I can't say they mix that hi hat too low so lemme pump 15k to the point where everything is blissfully lispy because it appeals to me.


Who do you build your system for if you not tuning to how YOU like the sound?


agreed. ...

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Re: **Clarity vs "LOUD"**

Postby Fearless » May 28th, 2014, 8:50 am

So how would you know what judges like to hear? In terms of competition?
I asking this because i fed up hear installers say "they know what the judges looking for" and would tune your system accordingly

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Re: **Clarity vs "LOUD"**

Postby Fearless » May 28th, 2014, 8:51 am

sorry about the double post

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Re: **Clarity vs "LOUD"**

Postby - Rovin's car audio - » May 28th, 2014, 11:14 am

topic going all over d place

clarity , loudness , cleanness , sq , box on hood , sq carshow competition , gallery carshow competition , carshow judging , tuning to one's personal taste , tuning to type of music , tuning by mp3 or original cds , tuning by ears , tuning by scope\rta , in car listening : outside car listening etc


ppl wanting to learn by reading here their faces must be like this : :? :? :? :? :?


... :lol:

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Re: **Clarity vs "LOUD"**

Postby nervewrecker » May 28th, 2014, 3:45 pm

I used the competition sq systems as a gauge and tweaked mine to suit.
I understand some if not all of them have competition settings and daily. Both are a bit different.

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Re: **Clarity vs

Postby meccalli » May 28th, 2014, 3:52 pm

Firewall wrote:
meccalli wrote:I can't say they mix that hi hat too low so lemme pump 15k to the point where everything is blissfully lispy because it appeals to me.


Who do you build your system for if you not tuning to how YOU like the sound?



Why do people buy top end studio monitors and headphones? Do they have to tune it to get more bass or some tonal aspect excluding inherent flaws with the actual performance or product. You gotta build it yourself in the auto world and get it to reproduce music true to its intended sound,true transparency- that's just my personal opinion.... after all the goal is listening to music not to audio equipment that can modify music and be a hindrance, that's what the studio is for.

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Re: **Clarity vs "LOUD"**

Postby Firewall » May 28th, 2014, 11:18 pm

meccalli wrote:
Firewall wrote:
meccalli wrote:I can't say they mix that hi hat too low so lemme pump 15k to the point where everything is blissfully lispy because it appeals to me.


Who do you build your system for if you not tuning to how YOU like the sound?



Why do people buy top end studio monitors and headphones? Do they have to tune it to get more bass or some tonal aspect excluding inherent flaws with the actual performance or product. You gotta build it yourself in the auto world and get it to reproduce music true to its intended sound,true transparency- that's just my personal opinion.... after all the goal is listening to music not to audio equipment that can modify music and be a hindrance, that's what the studio is for.


I'm honestly still trying to figure out what exactly you're saying in that post......

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Re: **Clarity vs

Postby Sully » May 29th, 2014, 6:14 am

nervewrecker wrote:I used the competition sq systems as a gauge and tweaked mine to suit.
I understand some if not all of them have competition settings and daily. Both are a bit different.


Not all SQ competition systems are good systems. You should (if the owner allows) take a look at their score sheet to see what areas of the system were good and bad. And ask the owner if the tune that you're listening to is the same as what the car was judged with. I've heard my fair share of vehicles in the competition lanes that doesn't quite make the grade.

As for what you should listen to as a reference, any performance that doesn't go through any sort of amplification or processing. e.g. if you want to know what a guitar sound like, don't listen to a CD, or a concert where it goes though a mixing board. Go listen to a person playing a guitar.

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Re: **Clarity vs "LOUD"**

Postby SR » May 29th, 2014, 7:26 am

Many people dont know how instruments and vocals sound naturaly. As most thri no fault of thiers only source of sound have already been processed be it cd mp3 radio etc

Having an understanding of natural sound would give the listener a better perspective of the "coloration" thats added due to processing amplifiers and drivers weak points

Iasca uses a standard refference cd specifically created based on high end recording process to capture the best quality of the sound being recorded.
This sets the benchmark standard that systems are refferenced to. There is also a standard model headphone that judges use for referencing music. When listening to systems one can determine if its better or worse than the refference point.

This cannot be measured by an electronic instrument.

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Re: **Clarity vs "LOUD"**

Postby nervewrecker » May 30th, 2014, 10:45 am

Sully wrote:
nervewrecker wrote:I used the competition sq systems as a gauge and tweaked mine to suit.
I understand some if not all of them have competition settings and daily. Both are a bit different.


Not all SQ competition systems are good systems. You should (if the owner allows) take a look at their score sheet to see what areas of the system were good and bad. And ask the owner if the tune that you're listening to is the same as what the car was judged with. I've heard my fair share of vehicles in the competition lanes that doesn't quite make the grade.

As for what you should listen to as a reference, any performance that doesn't go through any sort of amplification or processing. e.g. if you want to know what a guitar sound like, don't listen to a CD, or a concert where it goes though a mixing board. Go listen to a person playing a guitar.


I agree that all don't sound the same but when you working with a budget you have constraints.

I'd love to have something like Nigel own but damn.....yours looks impressive too. Maybe next show I attend I can score a demo?

Benchmark wise I think its safe to say I'm willing to go as far as Dobson own. I demoed it at the show in Rik car park with the ice t-shirts and its was simple and impressive.

Vintagestyles, evolution7tt, soundstream626, silent riot and Jeff have some pretty impressive ones also.

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Re: **Clarity vs "LOUD"**

Postby nigel1977 » June 2nd, 2014, 7:22 am

^^^Pm me with Vintagestyles info

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Re: **Clarity vs "LOUD"**

Postby nervewrecker » June 4th, 2014, 10:30 pm

Dont have the guy personal info.

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Re: **Clarity vs "LOUD"**

Postby C33_RB20DET » August 5th, 2014, 9:20 pm

Anyone wanting to hear how little can sound clean and loud at the same time can check me for a demo of the Suzuki Jimney clean install and all it is, is 2 6.5" and 1 12" you would doubt it if you heard it.

All frequency ranges covered no holes in the system.

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Re: **Clarity vs "LOUD"**

Postby nervewrecker » August 6th, 2014, 11:16 pm

Actually it does not take much to get loud. 300 watts on bass and 50 watts on each mid and high driver is pretty loud and clean.
Takes ten times the power to get twice as loud.

ie 3000 watts on bass and 500 watts a driver for mid and high to be twice as loud.

When you check up the expenses and upgrades to be twice as loud I'd settle for something decent like 1000 watts on bass and about 50 x 4 for mid and high. Very little modifications needed to accommodate such.

To be quite honest I loved my smaller system a lot.

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Re: **Clarity vs "LOUD"**

Postby C33_RB20DET » August 7th, 2014, 1:17 am

Keeping the install looking stock as possible is always a positive for me and yes small systems tend to sound clean as it involves much less equipment. However You can't just drive more power to a speaker and expect it to be twice as loud. To achieve this the only real thing that you can do with that power is to add more speakers to get the system louder. So you could have 2000RMS to 2 6.5" with 2 8" and drivers and still will not sound as loud or as clean as someone say running the same power with 8 6.5" and maybe 2 or 4 8".

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Re: **Clarity vs

Postby Brian Steele » August 7th, 2014, 7:36 pm

SR wrote:Electronic equipment sucjlh as the industry standard audio control 3056 rta can only go so far as to measuring actual bandwidth of the system but it cant detect distortion. Distortion measurements can be done freq by freq with a scope however its different when reproducing multiple frequencies at the same time


Distortion measurement (well, except perhaps for IMD) is pretty easy to measure these days. HolmImpulse is free - all you need to do is provide the PC and mic. In fact, I'd say that it should be a requirement to measure distortion when choosing x-over points for your drivers (e.g. a tweeter with too low an x-over point will show a lot more measurable distortion than one with the x-over properly set to match its characteristics. Distortion measurements are also a great way to quantify the impact things like panel flex have on the overall sound quality of your system.

Some images for you as these speak louder than words

20130405-carresponse.png
Distortion curve - car response

1. Distortion measurement done on my vehicle while I was still tuning it. See that peak @ 200Hz? Combination of panel flex and severe resonance at that point. Subsequently tracked down and eliminated. Of interest here is that the measured distortion at bass frequencies is less than or equal to the rest of the spectrum


20130404-carsubs.png
Distortion curves - subwoofers
20130404-carsubs.png (11.68 KiB) Viewed 4041 times

2. Distortion comparison between two subwoofers. In red is the response of the Alpine Type-R 12". Guess which one sounded cleaner?

20120118-2x5piezo.png
Distortion curves - tweeters

3. Distortion measurements on a cheap 2x5 Goldwood piezo tweeter, before (blue) and after (red) the use of a shaping filter. It should be easy to deduce from the graph why these cheap piezos sound like ass if run anywhere below 4.5kHz or thereabouts. So much for the talk that you can "run them without a crossover"!

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Re: **Clarity vs "LOUD"**

Postby C33_RB20DET » February 16th, 2015, 7:45 pm

to my surprise if you use enough of the FaitalPros they actually sound pretty loud and clean. Have used B&C before and have to say the Faitals are not that way off for the price.

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Re: **Clarity vs "LOUD"**

Postby Sully » February 26th, 2015, 4:31 pm

C33_RB20DET wrote:to my surprise if you use enough of the FaitalPros they actually sound pretty loud and clean. Have used B&C before and have to say the Faitals are not that way off for the price.


With enough EQ you can make anything have a flat response at a set volume level. Doesn't mean that it's going to be linear though.

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Re: **Clarity vs "LOUD"**

Postby C33_RB20DET » February 26th, 2015, 5:49 pm

Sully wrote:
C33_RB20DET wrote:to my surprise if you use enough of the FaitalPros they actually sound pretty loud and clean. Have used B&C before and have to say the Faitals are not that way off for the price.


With enough EQ you can make anything have a flat response at a set volume level. Doesn't mean that it's going to be linear though.




Depends on the individual and what they want... When you start speaking about linear, you are entering a whole different level of SQ.

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Re: **Clarity vs "LOUD"**

Postby Rovin » January 26th, 2022, 11:53 am

while doing a search for something i came upon this old topic, look at how discussions were a few yrs ago & tuners who used to be a here that probably dont post anymore, gone to fb, life\family, maybe out of d hobby etc .... d good ol days of d ICE section

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Re: **Clarity vs "LOUD"**

Postby ruffneck_12 » April 20th, 2023, 12:39 pm

Rovin wrote:while doing a search for something i came upon this old topic, look at how discussions were a few yrs ago & tuners who used to be a here that probably dont post anymore, gone to fb, life\family, maybe out of d hobby etc .... d good ol days of d ICE section



And Brian carrying the whole forum on he back as usual :lol

We really need to revamp this place. Get some build threads going again.

I sticking too. but yeah is time dread. When you get older you have more money to play with, but less time to play.

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Re: **Clarity vs "LOUD"**

Postby Rovin » April 20th, 2023, 3:21 pm

alot of ppl [if they still in d hobby] have moved on from being on these older format forums, crowd is split 50\50 into fb\instagram & WA

fb crowd local & foreign can be very uncivilized & brutal with critics nit picking at everything u type,post,pics\vids like some feel they wrote a book on car audio & know everything or wont be gentle on words with their opinions, so that kinda behavior discourages ppl from posting stuff up, luckily on here never really had those types of idiots

ppl might say oh here dead so what i coming on here or posting stuff for - but if everybody thinks like that waiting for others to liven it up well then nothing will be posted

speaking for myself anytime i do any system for my own ride i usually keep it at least 5yrs, my current system is about 8yrs so nothing to post about... A few yrs ago i posted a fb link to a customer install i did & only 1 person on here cared to make a comment while it got thousands of views & dozens of support on fb - same with a box i did last year ... sad to say posting here is not too encouraging anymore :|

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Re: **Clarity vs "LOUD"**

Postby ruffneck_12 » April 21st, 2023, 11:52 am

Here really not too good for real yes.

But I prefer here for the technical aspect. FB is for pips/likes/advertisement

The OG's from here still lurking and hoping for a gold nugget to comment on, I see yall. We gonna revamp it soon :evilbat:

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