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Jeremy09
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Charging problem

Postby Jeremy09 » February 17th, 2019, 9:03 pm

Fellas good day.
Not sure if i have a current issue but i have a system of roughly 3000rms total and it was tuned with a dd1 meter. My stock alternator was a 90amp reading 14.4v in a toyota hatchback, i got a single xs power xp3000 in the back and when playing my voltage reads 10.9v so on. I swapped to a tida alternator 140amp, same battery and system but the voltage reads 13.9 instead of 14.4 and still goes down to 10.9v when playing the same sounds. I also have nvx ofc 0 gauge for my runs with big 3 if this info helps and i am going to get another battery for the front but is there a problem with the car electrical itself?
Thanks in advance

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nervewrecker
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Re: Charging problem

Postby nervewrecker » February 17th, 2019, 9:35 pm

Lol at tiida 190amp max alternator keeping up with 3kw.
Fuzz has a nice entry level alternator. I suggest you invest in one.

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Re: Charging problem

Postby stark_007 » February 17th, 2019, 10:09 pm

So I just looked at Fuzz alternators as you recommended to OP. It starts at $2400 for a 160A alternator. I don't think this would make any significant difference as his alt isn't far from that amperage. OP try placing an AGM battery infront then see how the voltage is co-operating. Plus ONLY in Trinidad there is an Alternator name 2lo2flo, if you really need an alternator, stick to reputable brands such as Mechman(Rodney Audio), Iraggi, Stinger(Steves Electronics) etc.

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Re: Charging problem

Postby nervewrecker » February 17th, 2019, 10:14 pm

The tiida is 190A max.
Fuzz alternator is rated for 1500rpm or 2000rpm. Cant remember.

Only in trinidad we have peake ac units as well. Is peake a leading brand here? Do they work as they should?

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Re: Charging problem

Postby stark_007 » February 17th, 2019, 10:23 pm

nervewrecker wrote:The tiida is 190A max.
Fuzz alternator is rated for 1500rpm or 2000rpm. Cant remember.

Only in trinidad we have peake ac units as well. Is peake a leading brand here? Do they work as they should?

So you basically advising OP to spend $2400 to get 40/50 amps difference?

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Re: Charging problem

Postby Ted_v2 » February 17th, 2019, 10:33 pm

the tiida doesnt put out anything close to that rated power on idle.

buy something else purpose built.

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Re: Charging problem

Postby nervewrecker » February 17th, 2019, 10:34 pm

stark_007 wrote:
nervewrecker wrote:The tiida is 190A max.
Fuzz alternator is rated for 1500rpm or 2000rpm. Cant remember.

Only in trinidad we have peake ac units as well. Is peake a leading brand here? Do they work as they should?

So you basically advising OP to spend $2400 to get 40/50 amps difference?
No, advising him on a better charging system from a reputable person that has great customer service for pre sale and post sale.

Would actually revommend another battery as well for lower drawdown.

What kinda current the tiida alternator even puts out? Do you know?

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Re: Charging problem

Postby stark_007 » February 17th, 2019, 10:35 pm

Ted_v2 wrote:the tiida doesnt put out anything close to that rated power on idle.

buy something else purpose built.

Did you clamp to verify this?

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Re: Charging problem

Postby nervewrecker » February 17th, 2019, 10:39 pm

stark_007 wrote:
Ted_v2 wrote:the tiida doesnt put out anything close to that rated power on idle.

buy something else purpose built.

Did you clamp to verify this?
If it was, why people still buying alternator for music?

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Re: Charging problem

Postby stark_007 » February 17th, 2019, 10:54 pm

nervewrecker wrote:
stark_007 wrote:
nervewrecker wrote:The tiida is 190A max.
Fuzz alternator is rated for 1500rpm or 2000rpm. Cant remember.

Only in trinidad we have peake ac units as well. Is peake a leading brand here? Do they work as they should?

So you basically advising OP to spend $2400 to get 40/50 amps difference?
No, advising him on a better charging system from a reputable person that has great customer service for pre sale and post sale.

Would actually revommend another battery as well for lower drawdown.

What kinda current the tiida alternator even puts out? Do you know?


So are you implying Rodney Audio & Steves Electronics don't have " great customer service for pre sale and post sale" or are you a sales person for 2lo2flo cause I find your opinions heavily based around that company. :lol:

As for the rated amps the Tiida alt outputs I need to figure out an accurate way to clamp it because there is too much gossip and i'd really like to see what the output current is.

Well OP you can start with the battery upfront, that's my 2 cents for now.
Xs power - Fuzz
Northstar - Rodney audio
Stinger - Steves Electronics
Optima - JdmMaster ( also has Xs power and other brands)

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nervewrecker
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Re: Charging problem

Postby nervewrecker » February 17th, 2019, 10:57 pm

stark_007 wrote:
nervewrecker wrote:
stark_007 wrote:
nervewrecker wrote:The tiida is 190A max.
Fuzz alternator is rated for 1500rpm or 2000rpm. Cant remember.

Only in trinidad we have peake ac units as well. Is peake a leading brand here? Do they work as they should?

So you basically advising OP to spend $2400 to get 40/50 amps difference?
No, advising him on a better charging system from a reputable person that has great customer service for pre sale and post sale.

Would actually revommend another battery as well for lower drawdown.

What kinda current the tiida alternator even puts out? Do you know?


So are you implying Rodney Audio & Steves Electronics don't have " great customer service for pre sale and post sale" or are you a sales person for 2lo2flo cause I find your opinions heavily based around that company.

As for the rated amps the Tiida alt outputs I need to figure out an accurate way to clamp it because there is too much gossip and i'd really like to see what the output current is.

Well OP you can start with the battery upfront, that's my 2 cents for now.
Xs power - Fuzz
Northstar - Rodney audio
Stinger - Steves Electronics
Optima - JdmMaster ( also has Xs power and other brands)
I never implied that.
But I did get some questionable service at steves. Cant make a judgement based on a one day experience though. Maybe was a busy day or people were under stress.
I think the owner son came and handle me up and was extremely professional.

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Jeremy09
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Re: Charging problem

Postby Jeremy09 » February 17th, 2019, 11:03 pm

Ok sooo.... back to the post right, obviously the tida suppose to put out more as its a 140 and my stock was a 90amp. Am asking about the voltage issue explained in the post. And i did buy my xp3000 from fuzz and i personally fine his post sale customer service is crap because i did contact him more than once, he replies then seen you

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Re: Charging problem

Postby SR » February 18th, 2019, 6:23 am

You shouldnt be having those issues on a 3000 rms system even with a 90amp alt and supplimentary battery.
Not sure on the accuracy of a tiida 140amp alt. Depends on which tiida it came out from. The models with the e drive should have the higher rated alt as opposed to the regular tiida. Check the plate on the alt first.

Suggest checking over all wiring connections especially grounding both aftermarket as well as upgrading the oem ground wires.

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Re: Charging problem

Postby Jeremy09 » February 18th, 2019, 7:41 am

SR wrote:You shouldnt be having those issues on a 3000 rms system even with a 90amp alt and supplimentary battery.
Not sure on the accuracy of a tiida 140amp alt. Depends on which tiida it came out from. The models with the e drive should have the higher rated alt as opposed to the regular tiida. Check the plate on the alt first.

Suggest checking over all wiring connections especially grounding both aftermarket as well as upgrading the oem ground wires.
Thanks.. i checked the grounds, they were all sanded and the nvx wire was used for that. Could there be anything else?

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Re: Charging problem

Postby SR » February 18th, 2019, 7:48 am

Have your batteries load tested to ensure they are good

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Re: Charging problem

Postby Jeremy09 » February 18th, 2019, 9:17 am

I brought the xp3000 approximately a year ago, load tested twice and fuzz said its good

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Re: Charging problem

Postby adnj » February 18th, 2019, 9:39 am

It may help to start looking at the alternator output curves. Different models within the same brand have different outputs based on the alternator shaft speed.

Shaft speed will be the FEAD drive ratio multiplied by engine RPM.

Low RPM/high output alternators may have a lower maximum output but provide more current across the usable range.

High output alternator are nearly always more expensive to manufacture.Image

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Re: Charging problem

Postby Jeremy09 » February 18th, 2019, 10:00 am

adnj wrote:It may help to start looking at the alternator output curves. Different models within the same brand have different outputs based on the alternator shaft speed.

Shaft speed will be the FEAD drive ratio multiplied by engine RPM.

Low RPM/high output alternators may have a lower maximum output but provide more current across the usable range.

High output alternator are nearly always more expensive to manufacture.Image
Thanks. Another strange thing i noticed is a friend of mine with literally the same amps i got, same wire,around 3000rms, same alternator we purchased at the same time, everything same including both of us tuning with the dd1, else i have an xp3000 which is 120ah and he got a single northstar which is 76ah and his voltage reads better. We play the same sound and the notes i go down to 10.9 he is on 12.4 and so on with the same notes

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Re: Charging problem

Postby adnj » February 18th, 2019, 12:50 pm

The battery voltage drops while the battery provides power to the amplifier instead of the alternator.

Power dissipation differences could be due to ancillary loads, power cable length, speaker wire size and length, termination resistance, speaker impedance, pulley ratio differences, battery efficiency, and voltage regulator differences.

The easiest way to increase low engine RPM alternator output is to use a smaller alternator pulley to increase to drive ratio and alternator shaft speed. The down side is decreased belt and alternator life for cars driven at high RPMs.

Also, turn off everything that you possibly can while operating the amp at high power output levels.

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Re: Charging problem

Postby Jeremy09 » February 18th, 2019, 2:55 pm

adnj wrote:The battery voltage drops while the battery provides power to the amplifier instead of the alternator.

Power dissipation differences could be due to ancillary loads, power cable length, speaker wire size and length, termination resistance, speaker impedance, pulley ratio differences, battery efficiency, and voltage regulator differences.

The easiest way to increase low engine RPM alternator output is to use a smaller alternator pulley to increase to drive ratio and alternator shaft speed. The down side is decreased belt and alternator life for cars driven at high RPMs.

Also, turn off everything that you possibly can while operating the amp at high power output levels.
All this was done, my vehicle actually smaller than the 1 am comparing it to so the cable is possibly shorter in mine. The two alternator in both vehicles are the same including pully size, what is strange is that he has a smaller battery and everything else same and his voltage is better when under a load, am hitting 10s and he is on 12s playing same sound. He even sound a bit louder than me.

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Re: Charging problem

Postby adnj » February 18th, 2019, 4:51 pm

Jeremy09 wrote:
adnj wrote:The battery voltage drops while the battery provides power to the amplifier instead of the alternator.

Power dissipation differences could be due to ancillary loads, power cable length, speaker wire size and length, termination resistance, speaker impedance, pulley ratio differences, battery efficiency, and voltage regulator differences.

The easiest way to increase low engine RPM alternator output is to use a smaller alternator pulley to increase to drive ratio and alternator shaft speed. The down side is decreased belt and alternator life for cars driven at high RPMs.

Also, turn off everything that you possibly can while operating the amp at high power output levels.
All this was done, my vehicle actually smaller than the 1 am comparing it to so the cable is possibly shorter in mine. The two alternator in both vehicles are the same including pully size, what is strange is that he has a smaller battery and everything else same and his voltage is better when under a load, am hitting 10s and he is on 12s playing same sound. He even sound a bit louder than me.


You are comparing two different vehicles (you stated that they are of different sizes).

You will want to find these for both to compare:

The engine idle speed
The engine pulley size
The quiescent or resting voltages of the battery
The load voltage of each battery
The idle and running load current with the audio system fuse pulled
The load current with audio on.

One of you may have a lower vehicle load, more efficient speakers, better terminations or ground points, lower internal resistance battery, etc.

Thebfact that your battery is dropping below 11 volts points to possible cell damage of your battery also.

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Re: Charging problem

Postby Jeremy09 » February 18th, 2019, 10:28 pm

adnj wrote:
Jeremy09 wrote:
adnj wrote:The battery voltage drops while the battery provides power to the amplifier instead of the alternator.

Power dissipation differences could be due to ancillary loads, power cable length, speaker wire size and length, termination resistance, speaker impedance, pulley ratio differences, battery efficiency, and voltage regulator differences.

The easiest way to increase low engine RPM alternator output is to use a smaller alternator pulley to increase to drive ratio and alternator shaft speed. The down side is decreased belt and alternator life for cars driven at high RPMs.

Also, turn off everything that you possibly can while operating the amp at high power output levels.
All this was done, my vehicle actually smaller than the 1 am comparing it to so the cable is possibly shorter in mine. The two alternator in both vehicles are the same including pully size, what is strange is that he has a smaller battery and everything else same and his voltage is better when under a load, am hitting 10s and he is on 12s playing same sound. He even sound a bit louder than me.


You are comparing two different vehicles (you stated that they are of different sizes).

You will want to find these for both to compare:

The engine idle speed
The engine pulley size
The quiescent or resting voltages of the battery
The load voltage of each battery
The idle and running load current with the audio system fuse pulled
The load current with audio on.

One of you may have a lower vehicle load, more efficient speakers, better terminations or ground points, lower internal resistance battery, etc.

Thebfact that your battery is dropping below 11 volts points to possible cell damage of your battery also.
It rests at 12.7v but when i go full tilt on really bass sounds it hits 10.9..that was the lowest i saw it hit...he has a toyota fielder and mine is the toyota hatchback but the engine was changed to the 4e engine, not sure if it could be a wiring or regulator issue with the car?

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Re: Charging problem

Postby Rage Warrior » February 19th, 2019, 12:58 am

you two may have same 3000rms system but what amps you running and are you speakers impedance matching your amps? If you running your amp at lower impedance than specified it will pull lots of current when on full load. check your amp specs and amperage pull. New to car audio so I might be way off.

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Re: Charging problem

Postby Jeremy09 » February 19th, 2019, 8:48 am

We both have the same mono wired to 1ohm. Both our mids amp are 800.4. Basically they same

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Re: Charging problem

Postby adnj » February 19th, 2019, 11:05 am

I would suggest using a shunt tester or an AC/DC clamp meter to check the actual outputs and loads and work your back from there before you are forced to buy another battery.

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Re: Charging problem

Postby 88sins » February 19th, 2019, 2:36 pm

this sounding more and more like a regulator problem, or possibly a battery condition issue.

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Jeremy09
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Re: Charging problem

Postby Jeremy09 » February 19th, 2019, 3:24 pm

adnj wrote:I would suggest using a shunt tester or an AC/DC clamp meter to check the actual outputs and loads and work your back from there before you are forced to buy another battery.
We did a clamp... both off us used a 40hz tone at -10db...he got roughly 1100watts and i got around 900watts...

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Re: Charging problem

Postby Jeremy09 » February 19th, 2019, 3:25 pm

88sins wrote:this sounding more and more like a regulator problem, or possibly a battery condition issue.
He has a single northstar 76ah battery. I got a single xp3000 120ah battery..both bats rest at 12.8v

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Re: Charging problem

Postby adnj » February 19th, 2019, 7:26 pm

Jeremy09 wrote:
adnj wrote:I would suggest using a shunt tester or an AC/DC clamp meter to check the actual outputs and loads and work your back from there before you are forced to buy another battery.
We did a clamp... both off us used a 40hz tone at -10db...he got roughly 1100watts and i got around 900watts...
You may want to look at the current flow at the B+ terminal and the alternator output with no audio, when the audio is switched on with no tone and then with tone.

The lower power output from your system is likely due to the lower voltage.

At the power outputs you gave along with the earlier battery voltages gives about an 85 amp draw for both systems.

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Re: Charging problem

Postby 88sins » February 19th, 2019, 7:47 pm

Jeremy09 wrote:
88sins wrote:this sounding more and more like a regulator problem, or possibly a battery condition issue.
He has a single northstar 76ah battery. I got a single xp3000 120ah battery..both bats rest at 12.8v

both at rest showing 12.8v is one thing. a battery with a defective cell under zero load will show proper voltage when it's just got some charge from the alternator.

as a q&d test of the alternator and regulator.
start the vehicle, and disconnect the + terminal. if the car continues to idle and you hear the idle speed go up slightly alt & reg working fine.

to test if it's the battery that has a weak or defective cell
if you can get your hands on another battery with similar capacity that you know is in good condition, switch them and see what happens
or
disconnect that and yours from the terminal, and note the resting voltage of both. add a high draw load for 2 minutes on each battery, checking and taking note of how long each battery takes to drop down to 12v. if yours drops down to 12v significantly faster than the other, and when the load is removed it takes longer to get back up to 12v, you can safely assume its discharging too quickly, probably because of a single cell being defective for some reason.

hope you gt.

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