APR Tuned

[dale]

We sent our ECU off to APR, LLC this week for 91 Octane chipping. This chipping promises 209hp/242lb-ft on my 06A906032DL ECU. So by Monday I should have my ECU installed and ready to run. A previous mod was also the Spec stage 1 with Eurospec G60 lightened flywheel.

[Monk BANzai]

good stuff....interesting setup you hvave there....

[thegtiman]

We sent our ECU off to APR, LLC this week for 91 Octane chipping. This chipping promises 209hp/242lb-ft on my 06A906032DL ECU. So by Monday I should have my ECU installed and ready to run. A previous mod was also the Spec stage 1 with Eurospec G60 lightened flywheel.

Sounds about right. I guess the peak BHP occured at 5800ish (190lbft) rpm and the torque at around 4000rpm. Typical for KO3 huffer.
Should make for a nicer daily drive.

[dale]

good stuff....interesting setup you hvave there....

Thanks! My next performance modification is to upgrade is the 3" DP and Magnaflow 2.5" catback exhaust system

[TriniVdub]

all those mods are fine however ur still on that K03 which is the main drawback to the 1.8t

[dale]

I agree, I'm shopping around for the Garrett GT28RS for next year. Because that's another BIG upgrade, and I still have a few other items to upgrade along with my BT setup that can wait for now.

Garrett GT28RS
APR Stage 3 upgrade
Front Mount Intercooler w/ piping
Silicone Hoses (TIP and Coolant)

[TriniVdub]

yea APR is nice but for the money i dont think its worth it...they're jus way to expensive, have u tried contacting arnold from pagparts. Top notch kits on par with APR if not better, plus its cheaper with potential for more power gains. Message me if u want details of the kit he quoted me with price. This is probably the kit i'm leaning too, or maybe i'll just go with the ATP eliminator GT2871R and not have to worry about upgrading my rods.

[thegtiman]

yea APR is nice but for the money i dont think its worth it...they're jus way to expensive, have u tried contacting arnold from pagparts. Top notch kits on par with APR if not better, plus its cheaper with potential for more power gains. Message me if u want details of the kit he quoted me with price. This is probably the kit i'm leaning too, or maybe i'll just go with the ATP eliminator GT2871R and not have to worry about upgrading my rods.

Eliminators are shite as the the exhaust housings crack. Also huffer fouls block Best to buy regular 2871R and replace the exhaust system. The turbo is fully "on" by 4000rpm. You would find if you are not running the stronger BAM (TT) motor your engine hardware will limit you. We have seen STD BAM rods fail, bend, at around just around 300lbft and 5K r/min.

[TriniVdub]

^^^^ U have a point however the ATP turbo kit is decent, its just that the hot side of the turbo aka turbine side has a very small exit restricting the flow. This can somewhat be helped by changing the manifold and upgrading the exhaust system. Many people have made well over 300bhp on the GT28rs elim. kits and the longitudinal motors have made well over 330whp with the 2871. However the difference is that they don't have the same hot side like the transverse motors.

[TriniVdub]

And jus so u know unitronic > APR

[thegtiman]

...^^^^ U have a point however the ATP turbo kit is decent, its just that the hot side of the turbo aka turbine side has a very small exit restricting the flow. This can somewhat be helped by changing the manifold and upgrading the exhaust system...

I take it you are talking about the ATPs eliminator kit. These modifications are what I was alluding to in the my previous thread. Having done it myself on first a MK4 GOLF with a base ARZ engine then converting this vehicle to a TT 225ps BAM engine with a GT2871R and GOLF 4 air path system alonge with downpipe, "high flow exhaust manifoild" matching TIP, injectors and ECU recalibration. At the same time a Seat Lean with a 180ps AUQ was converted to a have a KO4 turbo as an inexpensive alternative. The Seat feels quicker ( around town and from traffic light to traffic light where as the Golf very good when on long straights where speeds can reach in excess 150mph.
The characteristic of the Garret GT2860 (28RS) unit changes the way the engine makes torque. I can record a smilar headline figure if a K04 turbo is fitted to a later 150ps/180ps engine but the torque curve will be more dieselike in feel and apperance and the engine urgency will be all over at 5500rpm. With the Garrett turbo it would not spike like the KKK units but will more consistant in holding torque longer to 6300rpm into the rpm range of the base engine. This is why the engines in general will measures a higher headline figure with this hardware.

[TriniVdub]

With the Garrett turbo it would not spike like the KKK units but will more consistant in holding torque longer to 6300rpm into the rpm range of the base engine. This is why the engines in general will measures a higher headline figure with this hardware.

And this is precisely why i would quicker lean towards the GT28RS rather than a k04, those torque spikes at low RPM's from the K04 is what breaks things, when compared to a gradual rise in torque. However anything over 300 ftlbs i would def. recommend replacing the rods.

[thegtiman]

The KO4 is designed to be a turbo that could reach full efficient operation at 2400rpm when fitted to APY, BAM and other 225 and 237ps engines of the VW/Audi/Seat group. The problem arises from aggressive adjustments to boost control vent duty as some tuners or customers chase headline figures. This not only causes spikes in pressure ratio but also excess heat, rapid cylinder pressure rises, detonation and ultimatley engine distruction.
You would also find in addition to "H" sectioned rods that your 2 piece exhaust valves will require replacement if engine torque or the accompanying cylinder pressure is at a 300lbft level.
You talk about a lesser engine hitting "more than 300bhp" with a GT28RS. Well,
This picture shows what happened to a BAM code 225ps engine that was installed in a MK2 Golf and fitted with GT2871R and a DTA engine control unit. This failure occured after testing the motor to 320lbft@4800-5200. The turbo pressure was 210kPa. He soon updated the hardware to the shiny bits to the right.

This car originally had the OEM K04 but on DTA and had the same torque but occuring at 3800-4000 rpm then rapidly decreasing. To achieve that airflow the turbo was boosed to 240kPa.
A GT28RS unit will produce a similar airlflow but at a higher pressure ratio and peak at a rpm point/s betweem a KO4 and 2871R assuming its the same engine.
On a 9.5: 1 engine and GT28RS you can to flow the same air but you will be limited by a lower det limit threshold and weaker engine components so even less torque pending a really good engine calibration.

[TriniVdub]

Some really nice pics and info, thanks. If i'm not mistaken those look like Pauter rods and a GT2871R in a KK housing aka eliminator?
The thing is i'm not looking to go anywhere near 240kpa (aprx 24psi) i'm looking more on the lines of 18-20 psi for now with the stock internals, my main concern with going for this setup ie the eliminator is because i know it would fit with minor modifications. Also cause i'm getting a really good deal. I dont expect crazy power after all how much power do u really want in a fwd!! so i think for the money its a good deal when compared to other kits.
The good thing with a 9.5:1 compression ratio is that once the internals are strengthened, u can run much less boost and make the same hp than on a low compression motor running more boost. This can significantly improve engine life.

[thegtiman]

The good thing with a 9.5:1 compression ratio is that once the internals are strengthened, u can run much less boost and make the same hp than on a low compression motor running more boost. This can significantly improve engine life.

Not really as your detonation threshold is lowered so your torque per rpm reduces at full load. This is one of ohe reasons for lowering static compression. With the 9.5:1 engine (AGU) your dynamic compression is less too as the cam combination are not as aggressive as the high powered vesions.

How much "power" in a FWD? Lots currently finishing a ABV 2.9 VR6 T.

240kPa = 20psi
210kPa = 15.9psi.
The turbo is from a ATP GT2871 eliminator kit.
The OEM rods were updated to Pauter jobs after failure.

[TriniVdub]

^^^^Actually 240Kpa = 34.8psi, no wonder he bent a rod. With that amount of boost on the stock internals it was only inevitable.
And for the prics of those pauters i would much rather go with IE's and have money left back. Don't get me wrong the pauters are amazing but for 300-400hp it doesn't make sense when u can go for either IE's or SCAT's for cheaper and are also very high quality high-tensile 4340 forged material.

[thegtiman]

Please do not confuse the terms.
240kPa = 20.3psi. It is absoulte pressure not gauge. Let me remind you that 240kPa was the boost pressure set on the k04 set up not Garrett. The rod bent when the running the Garrett unit.
It is a known fact that rods and valves give up on these engines when their robustness is exceeded.
The owner on this Mark 2 does not skimp on materials and he is very meticulous being a VW service adviser at the time. You could choose to use cheaper items for the same reliablity.
Discussions like these are very well covered on CGTI.

[TriniVdub]

Please do not confuse the terms.
240kPa = 20.3psi. It is absoulte pressure not gauge.

ah now it makes sense yes, u have to deduct 101.3kpa then convert to psi. So in regards to ur opinion what would u think about a atp GT28RS eliminator, KM manifold, VR6 3"MAF housing, 415cc genesis injectors, 3' DP and 3" TIP and a unitronic file running on stock internals and with an EBC to lower the boost to around 16psi? Until i upgrade the internals. Do u think i would c much with that particular setup and how safe would that be?

[thegtiman]

GT28RS - improved spread of air flow into higher rpm ranges of the engine, which means increased need for more accurate Mass Air Flow mesurements or MAF to Voltage ECU calibration.
KM manifold - increased energy distribution to turbine nozzle. Reduction in exhaust reversion
415cc injectors - more fuel flow to hit target AFRs for optimum torque with increased air mass at higher rpm. Hopefully in mutispray pattern
* need to make sure your fuel pump is able to meet increased fuel demand*
2.75-3" downpipe for the first 50cm.
Turbo Intake Pipe- Intake pipe needs to match turbo compressor inlet and is larger than OEM (see picture in previous thread)
Unitronic - I am not into flie flashing or downloading unless I know what is done to the calibration and have validatated myself so cannot say.
EBC - a 1.8T engine will come with a "N75" valve and is ECU controlled something that should be included in the ecu calibration.
Running on OEM internals - to optimise is subject to custom tuning on a dyno or other validation device and including road tuning. Updating to another file in this case may work but is not ideal for optimisation neither can anybody ensure that your engine will not grenade except the Unitronic supplier.

In summary -
All things being equal the G28RS hardware, run at most efficient set points will be capabable of a larger spread of torque from 3000-6000rpm when compared to a K03 turbo when typically overboosted to 18psi of airflow has torque ranging from 1800-5000rpm in a TDI shape. The Garrett huffer will make the car feel like a drivers car.
I am not really into the numbers hype as dynos and hype vary wildy.

[TriniVdub]

Ah thanks for all the info, The unitronic is suited for the N75 valve in which case i have already changed my valve to the N75J, but it can also be bypassed with this particular file to include an ebc. And i will be using Vag-com on a regular basis recording logs etc to make sure everything is within the safe limits.

[dale]

Gone for a couple of days a look how much I missed, well the plan is to get the GT28RS BT upgrade but right now I really need to work on my exhaust system so I'm looking at a 3" DP and 2.5 catback. I have heard mixed reviews with the N75J but I think I'm still going to give it a go.

Regarding my chip, I had actually spoken to Unitronic before I had purchased the APR, however I thought that APR had a better head start at perfecting the tuning. I had also looked at GIAC and REVO and pretty much they all promised around the same HP increase the only deference was the upgrades from stage 1, support, tuning accessories and seniority.

Right now I think either APT or APR would be my choice for BT upgrade.

[dale]

And jus so u know unitronic > APR

Just to elaborate on this Unitronic promises 45HP increase with their chip while APR promised 59HP.

HP/ft-lb Software Upgrade for 2001 VW with 06A906032DL ECM

Unitronic Specifications
APR Specifications
Revo Technik Specification
GIAC Specifications

All the chip tunings are priced around the same USD$499

[TriniVdub]

^^^^ I was actually talking about there BT software ...APR is known to be more reserved whereas the unitronic squeezes out every inch of power that can be made out of a specific kit, safely that is. There 630cc file is amazing its been known to give great reliability while also giving over 380whp and more on the GT30's.

Question why would u upgrade ur chip for the KO3 when u have plans to upgrade the turbo? That means u gonna have to resend ur ecu to be retuned again once u do the upgrades.

[dale]

There is some history behind me doing this, when we initially did the engine and transmission swap we hadn't planned for it at that time, but had to because the automatic transmission went. This being a daily driver, we opt to just go ahead and do it. We had the requested that the dealer recode the keys to the new engine and instrument cluster, they did a half baked job.

Having had the problem once again as a result of the battery going dead, we went with an immo-defeat and in order to have that done we had to get the ECM upgrade/chipped. So we did that in that go on the setup we currently have. The BT setup we are definitely planning on which also requires some additional items, such as the FMIC w/ piping, hoses (Samco), exhaust upgrade, then have the ECM chipped for that.

[TriniVdub]

dale, have u done ur exhaust system as yet? Still went with the 2.5" cat back with the 3" DP?

Reason i'm asking is because i went with a 3" DP and lookiin now to get a 3" cat-back...so still contemplating on whether or not i want to go with the 2.5" or the 3"