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What's going on in the Middle East?

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sMASH
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Re: What's going on in the Middle East?

Postby sMASH » May 22nd, 2024, 5:59 pm

Before that last rounds of negotiations Qatar was feddup of Israel. Every time they spoke to Israel, Israel changed their mind on points and kept drawing out the process.

They didn't even send a team initially

In the lead up, hamas would have wanted a permanent cease fire for all hostages returned. And Israel wanted all hostages returned with the ability to resume action in gaza to eradicate hamas.

Hence was surprising that hamas agree to terms Israel set out as Israel would not propose any permanent ceasefire.


If Egypt actually gave different terms than Israel proposed, then that kinda bonkers.


But Israel with every single negotiation, would be tweaking conditions repeatedly, making every ting go in circles.



If I was hamas I get rid of all the hostages. Some released to the aid agencies and the rest let go on gaza to find their way.


Lets see if Israel is really protecting civilians.

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Re: What's going on in the Middle East?

Postby adnj » May 22nd, 2024, 6:45 pm

Fewer than 300 IDF soldiers killed in Gaza. What's Hamas doing other than hiding?

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Re: What's going on in the Middle East?

Postby zoom rader » May 22nd, 2024, 8:56 pm

adnj wrote:Fewer than 300 IDF soldiers killed in Gaza. What's Hamas doing other than hiding?

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There was never any Hamas

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Re: What's going on in the Middle East?

Postby sMASH » May 23rd, 2024, 8:20 am

adnj wrote:Fewer than 300 IDF soldiers killed in Gaza. What's Hamas doing other than hiding?

Image
That is why yoav gallant saying he pulling out all his troops?
That is why us sending replacement vehicles?

Idf is suffering unacceptable high numbers of losses and don't want to physically be there fighting. Yes, they may not be high numbers compared to other conflicts, but it's higher than Israel is comfortable with. They much prefer bombing from a distance.

Palestinians have resistsnce movements, not an army, not a country, not a state.
Indigenous people resisting occupation 75years and counting.

God bless them, God bless hesbolah, God bless yemen, God bless Iran.

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Re: What's going on in the Middle East?

Postby sMASH » May 23rd, 2024, 8:22 am

Hamas has entered the high schools now...
Hamas may be hiding in gaza, but is spreading around the world.

Justice to the oppressors!
IMG_20240523_081258.jpg

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Re: What's going on in the Middle East?

Postby adnj » May 23rd, 2024, 8:41 am

Duane 3NE 2NR wrote:
adnj wrote:Egypt changed terms of Gaza ceasefire deal presented to Hamas, surprising negotiators, sources say

Egyptian intelligence quietly changed the terms of a ceasefire proposal that Israel had already signed off on earlier this month, ultimately scuttling a deal that could have released Israeli hostages and Palestinian prisoners, and set a pathway to temporarily end the fighting in Gaza, according to three people familiar with the discussions.

The ceasefire agreement that Hamas ended up announcing on May 6 was not what the Qataris or the Americans believed had been submitted to Hamas for a potential final review, the sources said.

The changes made by Egyptian intelligence, the details of which have not been previously reported, led to a wave of anger and recrimination among officials from the US, Qatar and Israel, and left ceasefire talks at an impasse.

“We were all duped,” one of those sources told CNN.

CIA Director Bill Burns, who has spearheaded the American efforts to broker a ceasefire agreement, was in the region when word reached him that the Egyptians had changed the terms of the deal. Burns was angry and embarrassed, the same person said, believing it made him look like he wasn’t in the loop or hadn’t informed the Israelis of the changes.

The soft-spoken and mild-mannered Burns “almost blew a gasket,” said the source.

A CIA spokesperson declined to comment.

The three sources familiar with the matter told CNN that a senior Egyptian intelligence official named Ahmed Abdel Khalek was responsible for making the changes. Abdel Khalek is a senior deputy to the Egyptian intelligence chief Abbas Kamel, who has been Burns’ counterpart in leading Egypt’s mediation in the ceasefire talks. ...

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/05/21/poli ... index.html

What was Khalek thinking?

From the same article:
"After the Egyptians came back from Israel and conferred with Hamas, it became clear the group wouldn’t go along with what Israel was agreeing to, one of the sources said. So the Egyptian official made significant changes to get Hamas to agree.

“Several alternatives and scenarios were proposed to overcome the main point of contention related to ending the war,” said the source.

If talks resume, it’s expected that the Qataris would play a bigger role in the next round, the second source familiar with the negotiations said. A re-launch of the negotiations does not appear imminent but if it were to happen Egypt would still be expected to be central given their essential proximity to Hamas, as well as Israel’s preference of Egypt to Qatar."


You consistently seem to miss what the salient point is (from the very same article):

“All sides were under the assumption the Egyptians provided the same document” that Israel had signed off on and the other mediators, the US and Qatar, were aware of, the person said.

Instead, the second source said, the Egyptians sought to blur the lines between the original framework and Hamas’s response.

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Re: What's going on in the Middle East?

Postby adnj » May 23rd, 2024, 8:45 am

When "Keepin' it Real goes wrong":

Drone war continues in southern Lebanon, Burkan missiles target Israeli sites

Hezbollah mourned two of its members on Wednesday, the 228th day of confrontations between the group and the Israeli army in southern Lebanon. The total number of Hezbollah fatalities, along with its affiliated medics and members of its ally, the Anal Movement, has reached 330.

Confrontations continued between the two sides through airstrikes, with both sides employing combat drones in addition to conventional warfare methods.

The two Hezbollah members were killed on Tuesday night in an airstrike by an Israeli drone that targeted the town of Odaisseh; Mohammed Ali Bou Taam (born in 2000) from the town of Taybeh in southern Lebanon, and Ali Hassan Sultan (born in 1991) from the town of Souaneh in southern Lebanon.

Hezbollah targeted several Israeli military sites, including the Ramim barracks, with Burkan missiles, and the Al-Sadah site, and said in a statement that it “directly hit it with artillery shells.”

https://www.arabnews.com/node/2515091/middle-east

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Re: What's going on in the Middle East?

Postby zoom rader » May 23rd, 2024, 9:05 am

sMASH wrote:Hamas has entered the high schools now...
Hamas may be hiding in gaza, but is spreading around the world.

Justice to the oppressors!
IMG_20240523_081258.jpg
Just think , not one hamas found .

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Re: What's going on in the Middle East?

Postby Dizzy28 » May 23rd, 2024, 9:13 am

adnj wrote:When "Keepin' it Real goes wrong":

Drone war continues in southern Lebanon, Burkan missiles target Israeli sites

Hezbollah mourned two of its members on Wednesday, the 228th day of confrontations between the group and the Israeli army in southern Lebanon. The total number of Hezbollah fatalities, along with its affiliated medics and members of its ally, the Anal Movement, has reached 330.

Confrontations continued between the two sides through airstrikes, with both sides employing combat drones in addition to conventional warfare methods.

The two Hezbollah members were killed on Tuesday night in an airstrike by an Israeli drone that targeted the town of Odaisseh; Mohammed Ali Bou Taam (born in 2000) from the town of Taybeh in southern Lebanon, and Ali Hassan Sultan (born in 1991) from the town of Souaneh in southern Lebanon.

Hezbollah targeted several Israeli military sites, including the Ramim barracks, with Burkan missiles, and the Al-Sadah site, and said in a statement that it “directly hit it with artillery shells.”

https://www.arabnews.com/node/2515091/middle-east


Yesterday several Twittter Israeli news sources have said that a ground campaign into South Lebanon is planned by the IDF for September.
Was supposed to be later on but has been pulled up.

Inevitably Beirut would probably be targeted as well given the entrenchment of Hesbollah there as well.

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Re: What's going on in the Middle East?

Postby sMASH » May 23rd, 2024, 9:37 am

zoom rader wrote:
sMASH wrote:Hamas has entered the high schools now...
Hamas may be hiding in gaza, but is spreading around the world.

Justice to the oppressors!
IMG_20240523_081258.jpg
Just think , not one hamas found .
Neither hostages.

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Re: What's going on in the Middle East?

Postby mkhitaryan888 » May 23rd, 2024, 9:39 am

Yesterday several Twittter Israeli news sources have said that a ground campaign into South Lebanon is planned by the IDF for September.
Was supposed to be later on but has been pulled up.

Inevitably Beirut would probably be targeted as well given the entrenchment of Hesbollah there as well.


Saw the news back in february, would be a big mistake. Iran wont sit back.

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Re: What's going on in the Middle East?

Postby Dizzy28 » May 23rd, 2024, 9:55 am

mkhitaryan888 wrote:
Yesterday several Twittter Israeli news sources have said that a ground campaign into South Lebanon is planned by the IDF for September.
Was supposed to be later on but has been pulled up.

Inevitably Beirut would probably be targeted as well given the entrenchment of Hesbollah there as well.


Saw the news back in february, would be a big mistake. Iran wont sit back.


Iran been warning since Oct.
They will continue warning after Lebanon is in ruins

Capture.JPG

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Re: What's going on in the Middle East?

Postby zoom rader » May 23rd, 2024, 2:49 pm

sMASH wrote:
zoom rader wrote:
sMASH wrote:Hamas has entered the high schools now...
Hamas may be hiding in gaza, but is spreading around the world.

Justice to the oppressors!
IMG_20240523_081258.jpg
Just think , not one hamas found .
Neither hostages.
I still awaiting the proof on Rapes and killing of babies.

Zionists mouths does smell stink of lies.

But dis no joke, in Europe Zionists is like they don't shower. They really smell bad, they need some hygiene training. Most are also very rude to non Zionists.

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Re: What's going on in the Middle East?

Postby adnj » May 23rd, 2024, 2:57 pm

zoom rader wrote:
sMASH wrote:
zoom rader wrote:
sMASH wrote:Hamas has entered the high schools now...
Hamas may be hiding in gaza, but is spreading around the world.

Justice to the oppressors! IMG_20240523_081258.jpg
Just think , not one hamas found .
Neither hostages.
I still awaiting the proof on Rapes and killing of babies.

Zionists months does smell stink of lies.

But dis no joke, in Europe Zionists is like they don't shower. They really smell bad, they need some hygiene training. Most are also very rude to non Zionists.


Yahya Sinwar, Mohammed Diab Ibrahim Al-Masri (Deif), Ismail Haniyeh

On the basis of evidence collected and examined by my Office, I have reasonable grounds to believe that Yahya SINWAR (Head of the Islamic Resistance Movement (“Hamas”) in the Gaza Strip), Mohammed Diab Ibrahim AL-MASRI, more commonly known as DEIF (Commander-in-Chief of the military wing of Hamas, known as the Al-Qassam Brigades), and Ismail HANIYEH (Head of Hamas Political Bureau) bear criminal responsibility for the following war crimes and crimes against humanity committed on the territory of Israel and the State of Palestine (in the Gaza strip) from at least 7 October 2023:

Extermination as a crime against humanity, contrary to article 7(1)(b) of the Rome Statute;
Murder as a crime against humanity, contrary to article 7(1)(a), and as a war crime, contrary to article 8(2)(c)(i);
Taking hostages as a war crime, contrary to article 8(2)(c)(iii);
Rape and other acts of sexual violence as crimes against humanity, contrary to article 7(1)(g), and also as war crimes pursuant to article 8(2)(e)(vi) in the context of captivity;
Torture as a crime against humanity, contrary to article 7(1)(f), and also as a war crime, contrary to article 8(2)(c)(i), in the context of captivity;
Other inhumane acts as a crime against humanity, contrary to article 7(l)(k), in the context of captivity;
Cruel treatment as a war crime contrary to article 8(2)(c)(i), in the context of captivity; and
Outrages upon personal dignity as a war crime, contrary to article 8(2)(c)(ii), in the context of captivity.

https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/statement- ... tion-state


Rape, hostage taking, raping and torturing of hostages, and murder of non-combatants.

Benjamin Netanyahu, Yoav Gallant

On the basis of evidence collected and examined by my Office, I have reasonable grounds to believe that Benjamin NETANYAHU, the Prime Minister of Israel, and Yoav GALLANT, the Minister of Defence of Israel, bear criminal responsibility for the following war crimes and crimes against humanity committed on the territory of the State of Palestine (in the Gaza strip) from at least 8 October 2023:

Starvation of civilians as a method of warfare as a war crime contrary to article 8(2)(b)(xxv) of the Statute;
Wilfully causing great suffering, or serious injury to body or health contrary to article 8(2)(a)(iii), or cruel treatment as a war crime contrary to article 8(2)(c)(i);
Wilful killing contrary to article 8(2)(a)(i), or Murder as a war crime contrary to article 8(2)(c)(i);
Intentionally directing attacks against a civilian population as a war crime contrary to articles 8(2)(b)(i), or 8(2)(e)(i);
Extermination and/or murder contrary to articles 7(1)(b) and 7(1)(a), including in the context of deaths caused by starvation, as a crime against humanity;
Persecution as a crime against humanity contrary to article 7(1)(h);
Other inhumane acts as crimes against humanity contrary to article 7(1)(k).

https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/statement- ... tion-state


Genocide didn't make the cut. ICC isn't really pro-Palestinian.

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Re: What's going on in the Middle East?

Postby zoom rader » May 23rd, 2024, 3:17 pm

adnj wrote:
zoom rader wrote:
sMASH wrote:
zoom rader wrote:
sMASH wrote:Hamas has entered the high schools now...
Hamas may be hiding in gaza, but is spreading around the world.

Justice to the oppressors! IMG_20240523_081258.jpg
Just think , not one hamas found .
Neither hostages.
I still awaiting the proof on Rapes and killing of babies.

Zionists months does smell stink of lies.

But dis no joke, in Europe Zionists is like they don't shower. They really smell bad, they need some hygiene training. Most are also very rude to non Zionists.


Yahya Sinwar, Mohammed Diab Ibrahim Al-Masri (Deif), Ismail Haniyeh

On the basis of evidence collected and examined by my Office, I have reasonable grounds to believe that Yahya SINWAR (Head of the Islamic Resistance Movement (“Hamas”) in the Gaza Strip), Mohammed Diab Ibrahim AL-MASRI, more commonly known as DEIF (Commander-in-Chief of the military wing of Hamas, known as the Al-Qassam Brigades), and Ismail HANIYEH (Head of Hamas Political Bureau) bear criminal responsibility for the following war crimes and crimes against humanity committed on the territory of Israel and the State of Palestine (in the Gaza strip) from at least 7 October 2023:

Extermination as a crime against humanity, contrary to article 7(1)(b) of the Rome Statute;
Murder as a crime against humanity, contrary to article 7(1)(a), and as a war crime, contrary to article 8(2)(c)(i);
Taking hostages as a war crime, contrary to article 8(2)(c)(iii);
Rape and other acts of sexual violence as crimes against humanity, contrary to article 7(1)(g), and also as war crimes pursuant to article 8(2)(e)(vi) in the context of captivity;
Torture as a crime against humanity, contrary to article 7(1)(f), and also as a war crime, contrary to article 8(2)(c)(i), in the context of captivity;
Other inhumane acts as a crime against humanity, contrary to article 7(l)(k), in the context of captivity;
Cruel treatment as a war crime contrary to article 8(2)(c)(i), in the context of captivity; and
Outrages upon personal dignity as a war crime, contrary to article 8(2)(c)(ii), in the context of captivity.

https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/statement- ... tion-state


Rape, hostage taking, raping and torturing of hostages, and murder of non-combatants.

Benjamin Netanyahu, Yoav Gallant

On the basis of evidence collected and examined by my Office, I have reasonable grounds to believe that Benjamin NETANYAHU, the Prime Minister of Israel, and Yoav GALLANT, the Minister of Defence of Israel, bear criminal responsibility for the following war crimes and crimes against humanity committed on the territory of the State of Palestine (in the Gaza strip) from at least 8 October 2023:

Starvation of civilians as a method of warfare as a war crime contrary to article 8(2)(b)(xxv) of the Statute;
Wilfully causing great suffering, or serious injury to body or health contrary to article 8(2)(a)(iii), or cruel treatment as a war crime contrary to article 8(2)(c)(i);
Wilful killing contrary to article 8(2)(a)(i), or Murder as a war crime contrary to article 8(2)(c)(i);
Intentionally directing attacks against a civilian population as a war crime contrary to articles 8(2)(b)(i), or 8(2)(e)(i);
Extermination and/or murder contrary to articles 7(1)(b) and 7(1)(a), including in the context of deaths caused by starvation, as a crime against humanity;
Persecution as a crime against humanity contrary to article 7(1)(h);
Other inhumane acts as crimes against humanity contrary to article 7(1)(k).

https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/statement- ... tion-state


Genocide didn't make the cut. ICC isn't really pro-Palestinian.
Still no concrete proof

All hearsay and , "I have reasonable grounds to believe "

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Re: What's going on in the Middle East?

Postby Duane 3NE 2NR » May 23rd, 2024, 4:42 pm

adnj wrote:
Duane 3NE 2NR wrote:
adnj wrote:Egypt changed terms of Gaza ceasefire deal presented to Hamas, surprising negotiators, sources say

Egyptian intelligence quietly changed the terms of a ceasefire proposal that Israel had already signed off on earlier this month, ultimately scuttling a deal that could have released Israeli hostages and Palestinian prisoners, and set a pathway to temporarily end the fighting in Gaza, according to three people familiar with the discussions.

The ceasefire agreement that Hamas ended up announcing on May 6 was not what the Qataris or the Americans believed had been submitted to Hamas for a potential final review, the sources said.

The changes made by Egyptian intelligence, the details of which have not been previously reported, led to a wave of anger and recrimination among officials from the US, Qatar and Israel, and left ceasefire talks at an impasse.

“We were all duped,” one of those sources told CNN.

CIA Director Bill Burns, who has spearheaded the American efforts to broker a ceasefire agreement, was in the region when word reached him that the Egyptians had changed the terms of the deal. Burns was angry and embarrassed, the same person said, believing it made him look like he wasn’t in the loop or hadn’t informed the Israelis of the changes.

The soft-spoken and mild-mannered Burns “almost blew a gasket,” said the source.

A CIA spokesperson declined to comment.

The three sources familiar with the matter told CNN that a senior Egyptian intelligence official named Ahmed Abdel Khalek was responsible for making the changes. Abdel Khalek is a senior deputy to the Egyptian intelligence chief Abbas Kamel, who has been Burns’ counterpart in leading Egypt’s mediation in the ceasefire talks. ...

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/05/21/poli ... index.html

What was Khalek thinking?

From the same article:
"After the Egyptians came back from Israel and conferred with Hamas, it became clear the group wouldn’t go along with what Israel was agreeing to, one of the sources said. So the Egyptian official made significant changes to get Hamas to agree.

“Several alternatives and scenarios were proposed to overcome the main point of contention related to ending the war,” said the source.

If talks resume, it’s expected that the Qataris would play a bigger role in the next round, the second source familiar with the negotiations said. A re-launch of the negotiations does not appear imminent but if it were to happen Egypt would still be expected to be central given their essential proximity to Hamas, as well as Israel’s preference of Egypt to Qatar."


You consistently seem to miss what the salient point is (from the very same article):

“All sides were under the assumption the Egyptians provided the same document” that Israel had signed off on and the other mediators, the US and Qatar, were aware of, the person said.

Instead, the second source said, the Egyptians sought to blur the lines between the original framework and Hamas’s response.

I got that part

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Re: What's going on in the Middle East?

Postby sMASH » May 24th, 2024, 6:16 am

A video meme say Iran president raisi went to buss files on Boeing.

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Re: What's going on in the Middle East?

Postby adnj » May 24th, 2024, 6:17 am

Image


A group of highly respected academics and public health officials who authored a working paper on the amount of food entering the Gaza Strip during the war have concluded that the supply from January through April is sufficient for the population’s daily energy and protein needs.

Analyzing data from the Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories (COGAT) agency of the Defense Ministry, which includes the weight of consignments of specific food commodities and standardized food parcels delivered to Gaza, the authors found that the mean energy availability across four months was 3,163 kcal per person, per day.

This significantly exceeds the widely accepted standard of 2,100 kcals per person, per day established by the Sphere humanitarian organization, for the minimum amount of food aid required in response to a crisis.

The new study comes following a bombshell announcement by International Criminal Court Prosecutor Karim Khan on Monday that he is seeking to charge Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Defense Minister Yoav Gallant with crimes against humanity and war crimes for allegedly using deliberate starvation as a method of war against Palestinians in Gaza.

“This in-depth analysis highlights the fact that the amount of food delivered per capita should be sufficient for the entire Gazan population, and meets Sphere humanitarian recommendations for food aid delivery to conflict-affected populations, during the period examined,” the new study found. ...

The authors also found that the amount of food entering Gaza was “significantly greater” in the January-April period under review than in the pre-October 7 period.

The study was authored by Dr. Naomi Fliss Isakov, head of research at the Department of Nutrition of the Israeli Ministry of Health (MOH); Dr. Dorit Nitzan of Tel Aviv University’s School of Public Health and Coordinator for the World Health Organization’s Europe emergency program; Moran Blaychfeld Magnazi, the deputy director of the Nutrition Division at the Health Ministry; Prof. Aron Troen of Hebrew University’s School of Nutrition Science; Dr. Sharon Alroy-Preis, head of the Public Health Directorate at the Health Ministry; and Prof. Ronit Endevelt (PhD) of Haifa University and director of the nutrition division at the Health Ministry.

The paper is currently in the peer-review process in the Israel Journal of Health Policy Research so the findings are provisional and the conclusions may change, the authors noted.

In another important finding, the study found that only 54 percent of the pallets transferred into Gaza were dispatched by UN and humanitarian agencies operating in the territory. ...

https://www.timesofisrael.com/new-study ... ons-needs/

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Re: What's going on in the Middle East?

Postby adnj » May 24th, 2024, 7:03 am

sMASH wrote:https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-sexual-violence-zaka-ca7905bf9520b1e646f86d72cdf03244

How 2 debunked accounts of sexual violence on Oct. 7 fueled a global dispute over Israel-Hamas war

By  TIA GOLDENBERG and JULIA FRANKEL

Updated 3:20 AM AST, May 22, 2024

JERUSALEM (AP) — Chaim Otmazgin had tended to dozens of shot, burned or mutilated bodies before he reached the home that would put him at the center of a global clash.

Working in a kibbutz that was ravaged by Hamas’ Oct. 7 attack, Otmazgin — a volunteer commander with ZAKA, an Israeli search and rescue organization — saw the body of a teenager, shot dead and separated from her family in a different room. Her pants had been pulled down below her waist. He thought that was evidence of sexual violence.

[https://dims]

Volunteers from the ZAKA rescue service remove blood stains from a public bomb shelter on a road near the Israeli-Gaza border in the aftermath of the Oct. 7 Hamas attack, Nov. 20, 2023. (AP Photo/Ohad Zwigenberg, File)

He alerted journalists to what he’d seen. He tearfully recounted the details in a nationally televised appearance in the Israeli Parliament. In the frantic hours, days and weeks that followed the Hamas attack, his testimony ricocheted across the world.

But it turns out that what Otmazgin thought had occurred in the home at the kibbutz hadn’t happened.

___

Beyond the numerous and well-documented atrocities committed by Hamas militants on Oct. 7, some accounts from that day, like Otmazgin’s, proved untrue.

“It’s not that I invented a story,” Otmazgin told The Associated Press in an interview, detailing the origins of his initial explosive claim — one of two by ZAKA volunteers about sexual violence that turned out to be unfounded.

“I couldn’t think of any other option” other than the teen having been sexually assaulted, he said. “At the end, it turned out to be different, so I corrected myself.”

But it was too late.

ISRAEL-HAMAS WAR

[https://dims]

Takeaways from AP examination of how 2 debunked accounts of sexual violence on Oct. 7 originated

[https://dims]

Israel’s block of AP transmission shows how ambiguity in law could restrict war coverage

[https://dims]

UN halts all food distribution in Rafah after running out of supplies in the southern Gaza city

The United Nations and other organizations have presented credible evidence that Hamas militants committed sexual assault during their rampage. The prosecutor for the International Criminal Court, Karim Khan, said Monday he had reason to believe that three key Hamas leaders bore responsibility for “rape and other acts of sexual violence as crimes against humanity.”

Though the number of assaults is unclear, photo and video from the attack’s aftermath have shown bodies with legs splayed, clothes torn and blood near their genitals.

However, debunked accounts like Otmazgin’s have encouraged skepticism and fueled a highly charged debate about the scope of what occurred on Oct. 7 — one that is still playing out on social media and in college campus protests.

Some allege the accounts of sexual assault were purposely concocted. ZAKA officials and others dispute that. Regardless, AP’s examination of ZAKA’s handling of the now debunked stories shows how information can be clouded and distorted in the chaos of the conflict.

[https://dims]

Israeli soldiers inspect the site of the Nova music festival where at least 260 Israeli festival-goers were killed during the attack by Hamas militants on Oct 7, near the border with the Gaza Strip in southern Israel. Oct. 13, 2023.(AP Photo/Ariel Schalit, File)

As some of the first people on the scene, ZAKA volunteers offered testimony of what they saw that day. Those words have helped journalists, Israeli lawmakers and U.N. investigators paint a picture of what occurred during Hamas’ attack. (ZAKA, a volunteer-based group, does not do forensic work. The organization has been a fixture at Israeli disaster sites and scenes of attacks since it was founded in 1995. Its specific job is to collect bodies in keeping with Jewish law.)

Still, it took ZAKA months to acknowledge the accounts were wrong, allowing them to proliferate. And the fallout from the debunked accounts shows how the topic of sexual violence has been used to further political agendas.

Israel points to sexual violence on Oct. 7 to highlight what it says is Hamas’ savagery and to justify its wartime goal of neutralizing any repeated threat coming from Gaza. It has accused the international community of ignoring or playing down evidence of sexual violence claims, alleging anti-Israel bias. It says any untrue stories were an anomaly in the face of the many documented atrocities.

In turn, some of Israel’s critics have seized on the ZAKA accounts, along with others shown to be untrue, to allege that the Israeli government has distorted the facts to prosecute a war — one in which more than 35,000 Palestinians have been killed, many of them women and children, according to Gaza health officials.

A U.N. fact-finding team found “reasonable grounds” to believe that some of those who stormed southern Israel on Oct. 7 had committed sexual violence, including rape and gang rape. But the U.N. investigators also said that in the absence of forensic evidence and survivor testimony, it would be impossible to determine the scope of such violence. Hamas has denied its forces committed sexual violence.

BODY BAGS AND ROCKET FIRE

Israel was caught off guard by the ferocity of the Oct. 7 assault, the deadliest in the nation’s history. About 1,200 people were killed and 250 taken hostage. It took days for the military to clear the area of militants.

There were hundreds of bodies scattered across southern Israel, bearing various signs of abuse: burns, bullet holes, signs of mutilation, marks indicating bodies were bound. ZAKA volunteers weren’t used to dealing with so many bodies.

“You get dizzy at some point,” said Moti Bukjin, ZAKA’s spokesperson. “Some of the bodies are burned. Some are mutilated. Some of the bodies are decapitated. Every house has a story.”

Standard protocols for dealing with attacks, which Israel encountered frequently on a far smaller scale in the early 2000s, collapsed. There was confusion over who was dead and who was taken captive, especially in the hard-hit communal farming villages and in the aftermath of the outdoor Nova music festival.

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The site of the Nova music festival where at least 260 Israeli festival-goers were killed during the attack by Hamas militants on Oct 7, near the border with the Gaza Strip in southern Israel, Oct. 12, 2023. (AP Photo/Ohad Zwigenberg, File)

Authorities were concerned that remaining militants might snatch more bodies. ZAKA says it was instructed to gather the dead as swiftly as possible and send them for identification and quick burial, according to Jewish custom. ZAKA said it sent some 800 volunteers to southern Israel, arriving at the music festival late on Oct. 7 and entering the kibbutzim two days later, according to Otmazgin.

For the first three days, many hardly slept at all. Accompanied by military escorts, volunteers went house to house, wrapping the bodies in white plastic bags on which they wrote the person’s gender, the house number where they were found and any other identifying details. Then they’d say the Jewish mourning prayer and load them into a truck, according to Tomer Peretz, who volunteered for the first time with ZAKA in the days following the attack.

As first responders worked, rocket fire from Gaza boomed overhead. Volunteers paused and crouched when air raid sirens blared. They used anything they could find to move bodies — even shopping carts. “We worked a minute and a half per body, from the moment we touch it to the moment it is on the truck,” said Otmazgin, commander of special units with ZAKA.

Peretz, a U.S.-based artist, said the volunteers weren’t there to do forensic work; he thought the soldiers who cleared the houses of explosives beforehand were handling that process. But the Israeli military told the AP that the army did not do any forensic work in the wake of Oct. 7.

Bukjin said police forensics teams were mostly focused on the southern cities of Sderot and Ofakim. Otmazgin said forensics workers were present in the kibbutzim but spread thin and could not follow standard — and painstaking — protocols because of the scale of the attack. He said forensics teams in the area mostly instructed ZAKA on how to help identify the bodies.

That means that bodies which might have shown signs of sexual assault could have eluded examination. Instead, they were loaded into body bags, sent to a facility to be identified and dispatched for quick burial.

“People seem to have expected that the aftermath of the attack would be like a movie, that immediately the police would come, that everything would be very sterile and very clean. People who don’t live in a war zone do not understand the horrific chaos that took place that day,” said Orit Sulitzeanu, the executive director of The Association of Rape Crisis Centers in Israel.

The group has spent months gathering evidence of sexual violence that occurred that day, sifting through many accounts emerging from the chaotic early days just after the attack. “Some of those stories that turned out not to be true were not lies,” she said. They were, she said, “mistakes.”

FIRST ACCOUNT: PANTS PULLED DOWN

Otmazgin said he was the origin of one of two debunked stories by ZAKA volunteers about sexual assault.

He said he entered a home in Kibbutz Be’eri, one of the hardest-hit communities, where nearly a tenth of the population of roughly 1,000 was killed, and found the body of a teenage girl separated from two of her relatives. Her pants, he said, were pulled down. He assumed that meant she had been sexually assaulted.

“They slaughtered her. They shot her in the head and her pants are pulled down to here. I put that out there. Have someone give me a different interpretation,” he said then, showing an AP reporter a photo he took of the scene, which he had altered by pulling up the teenager’s pants.

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Israeli soldiers inspect the site of the Nova music festival where at least 260 Israeli festival-goers were killed during the attack by Hamas militants on Oct 7, near the border with the Gaza Strip in southern Israel. Oct. 13, 2023. (AP Photo/Ariel Schalit, File)

Today, he maintains that he never said outright that the girl whose body he saw had been sexually assaulted. But his telling strongly suggested that was the case. Otmazgin says he told journalists and lawmakers details of what he’d seen and asked if they might have some other interpretation.

Nearly three months later, ZAKA found out his interpretation was wrong. After cross-checking with military contacts, ZAKA found that a group of soldiers had dragged the girl’s body across the room to make sure it wasn’t booby-trapped. During the procedure, her pants had come down.

Otmazgin said it took time to learn the truth because the soldiers who moved the body had been deployed to Gaza for weeks and were not reachable. He said he recognized that such accounts can cause damage, but he believes he rectified it by correcting his account months later.

A military spokesperson said he had no way of knowing what had happened to every body in the assault’s immediate aftermath. He spoke on condition of anonymity in line with military regulations.

Another account with details similar to Otmazgin’s but attributed to an anonymous combat medic has also come under scrutiny after emerging in international media, including in a story by the AP. But the medic did not disclose where he saw the scene.

The military would not make the medic available for further interviews, so it was not possible to reconcile the two accounts or verify the medic’s.

SECOND ACCOUNT: EVERYTHING WAS CHARRED

Yossi Landau, a longtime ZAKA volunteer, was also working in Be’eri when he entered a home that would produce the second debunked story. Landau would recount to global media what he thought he saw: a pregnant woman lying on the floor, her fetus still attached to the umbilical cord wrenched from her body.

Otmazgin was overseeing the other ZAKA workers when he said Landau frantically called him and others into the home. But Otmazgin did not see what Landau described. Instead, he saw the body of a heavy-set woman and an unidentifiable hunk attached to an electric cable. Everything was charred.

Otmazgin said he told Landau that his interpretation was wrong — this wasn’t a pregnant woman. Still, Landau believed his version, went on to tell the story to journalists and was cited in outlets around the world. Landau, along with other first responders, also told journalists he had seen beheaded children and babies. No convincing evidence had been publicized to back up that claim, and it was debunked by Haaretz and other major media outlets.

Bukjin said it took some time for ZAKA to understand that the story was not true, then asked Landau to stop telling it. Otmazgin also told Landau to stop telling the story, but that wasn’t until about three months after the attack when ZAKA was wrapping up its work in the field. The United Nations said Landau’s claim was unfounded.

Otmazgin said it has been difficult to rein Landau in, both because he vehemently believes in his version and because there is no way to stop journalists from engaging with him directly. Both Otmazgin and Bukjin attributed Landau’s continued belief in the false account to him having been deeply traumatized by what he saw in the aftermath of Oct. 7.

AP journalists attempted to reach Landau multiple times. While he answered initial inquiries, he was ultimately unreachable.

’WE’RE NOT FORENSICS WORKERS’

Almost immediately after Oct. 7, Israel began allowing groups of journalists to visit the ravaged kibbutzim. On the trips, journalists found ZAKA volunteers onsite to be some of the most accessible sources of information and some shared what they thought they saw, even though, as Bukjin notes, “we are not forensics workers.”

“They pretend to know, sometimes very naively, what happened to the bodies they are dealing with,” said Gideon Aran, a sociologist at Jerusalem’s Hebrew University who wrote a recent book on the organization.

Bukjin said that the group’s usual media protocols faltered and that volunteers, who he said typically were vetted by him before being interviewed, were speaking to journalists directly. “The information is wild, is not controlled right,” said Peretz, the first-time volunteer. He said he took photos and video of what he saw even though he was told not to and was interviewed repeatedly about what he witnessed.

Other first responders also offered accounts — of babies beheaded, or hung from a clothesline, or killed together in a nursery, or placed in an oven – which were later debunked by Israeli reporters.

ZAKA is a private civilian body made up of 3,000 mostly Orthodox Jewish volunteer workers. Beyond its work in Israel, the group has also sent teams to international incidents, including the 2011 earthquake and tsunami in Japan and the 2002 attacks in Mombasa, Kenya. As part of its role to ensure burial according to Jewish law, its volunteers scour crime scenes for remains in order to bury each body as completely as possible.

Aran, the sociologist, said Oct. 7 was unlike anything the organization had previously witnessed. ZAKA’s main experience with victim identification before Oct. 7 was limited to distinguishing militant attackers from their victims, not determining who was a victim of sexual assault, Aran said.

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Israelis killed by Hamas militants lie on the road near Sderot, Israel, Oct. 7, 2023. (AP Photo/Ohad Zwigenberg, File)

DEBUNKED ACCOUNTS VS. THE EVIDENCE

After untrue accounts of sexual assault filtered into international media, the process of debunking them appeared, at times, to take center stage in the global dispute over the facts of Oct. 7. On social media, accounts with hundreds of thousands of followers question the very occurrence of sexual violence.

The loud debate belies a growing body of evidence supporting the claim that sexual assault took place that day, even as its scope remains difficult to ascertain.

The U.N. team investigating sexual violence said it saw “credible circumstantial information which may be indicative of some forms of sexual violence, including genital mutilation, sexualized torture or cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment.”

That included photos and videos showing a minimum of 20 corpses with clothes that had been torn, revealing private body parts, and 10 bodies with indications of bound wrists and or tied legs. No digital materials showed sexual violence in real time, the report said.

The investigators described the accounts that originated with Otmazgin and Landau to be “unfounded.” Regarding Otmazgin’s original account, they said the “crime scene had been altered by a bomb squad and the bodies moved, explaining the separation of the body of the girl from the rest of her family.”

Otmazgin said he publicly corrected himself after discovering what had transpired, including to the U.N. investigators he met. He showed the investigators — and later an AP reporter — photos and video, including one of a deceased woman who had a blood-speckled, flesh-colored bulb in her genital area, as well as several bodies of women with blood near their genitals and another who appeared to have small sharp objects protruding from her upper thigh and above her genitals.

More evidence is emerging as time goes by. A released hostage has described facing sexual violence in captivity in an account to The New York Times, and a man at the music festival said he heard a woman screaming she was being raped.

On Monday, releasing arrest warrants for top Hamas and Israeli officials, ICC Chief Prosecutor Karim Khan said that “there are reasonable grounds to believe that hostages taken from Israel have been kept in inhumane conditions, and that some have been subject to sexual violence, including rape, while being held in captivity.”

The U.N. report shines a light on the issues that have contributed to the skepticism over sexual violence. It said there was “limited crime scene processing” and that some evidence of sexual assault may have been lost due to “the interventions of some inadequately trained volunteer first responders.” It also said global scrutiny of the accounts emerging from Oct. 7 may have deterred survivors from coming forward.

PULLING FOCUS FROM THE VICTIMS

In the fraught global discourse surrounding Oct. 7 and the war it sparked, sexual violence has been a particular point of tension.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, as well as prominent figures such as former U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and top technology executive Sheryl Sandberg, have called out what they saw as global indifference toward Israeli women who were sexually assaulted in the attack.

Some critics of Israel’s war, meanwhile, have raised questions about the weight of the evidence, using debunked testimonies, including from ZAKA volunteers, to do so. The site oct7factcheck.com, which says its aim is to combat “atrocity propaganda” that could “justify military or political actions,” has repeatedly challenged investigations in mainstream media about sexual violence.

The site, which is run by a loose coalition of tech industry employees supporting Palestinian rights, says it has not yet reached a conclusion on the occurrence of gender-based violence. It has alleged that ZAKA members are “behind many of the Oct. 7 fabrications.” The site has also highlighted other debunked accounts, including about a baby found in an oven and a hostage giving birth in captivity.

Tariq Kenney-Shawa, a U.S. policy fellow at Al-Shabaka, a Palestinian think tank, said a long history of what he calls Israeli disinformation and propaganda has fueled global skepticism over the claims. The debunked ZAKA stories, he said, contributed to the sense that Israel exaggerated accounts of atrocities committed by Hamas to dehumanize Palestinians as its military continues its deadly offensive.

“Skepticism of all claims made by the Israeli military, a military that is being investigated for genocide at The Hague, are not only justified but should be encouraged,” he said. “That’s why Palestinians, and much of the international community, are asking for thorough scrutiny.”

Dahlia Scheindlin, a commentator on Israeli affairs, said those downplaying the atrocities committed by Hamas have seized on the debunked ZAKA accounts as “ammunition” to show that Israel fabricates or that Oct. 7 wasn’t so bad, rather than examining all the available evidence to build a more comprehensive picture of what happened.

At the same time, any false accounts, even if produced without malice, lead to further polarization and pulls the focus away from victims, she argues. “Every bit of misinformation, disinformation — good faith or bad faith, mistakes or lies — is extremely destructive.”

Read More

TIA GOLDENBERG

Goldenberg is an Associated Press reporter and producer covering Israel and the Palestinian territories. She previously reported on East and West Africa from Nairobi.

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JULIA FRANKEL

Frankel is an Associated Press reporter in Jerusalem.
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sMASH
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Re: What's going on in the Middle East?

Postby sMASH » May 24th, 2024, 7:40 am



US and support for ICC warrants

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Re: What's going on in the Middle East?

Postby adnj » May 24th, 2024, 9:32 am

Image

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Re: What's going on in the Middle East?

Postby sMASH » May 24th, 2024, 9:46 am

adnj wrote:Image

Smells anti Semitic

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Re: What's going on in the Middle East?

Postby sMASH » May 24th, 2024, 9:47 am

https://youtu.be/mn5yYAAn4oM?si=fZAOi_oA2K5TM1Ri


J dore covering Norway Ireland spain recognizing Palestine. And Israel recalling ambassadors.

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Re: What's going on in the Middle East?

Postby Dizzy28 » May 24th, 2024, 12:12 pm

GOWrppmW0AABN6i.jpg


6th Highest ranking Hamas officer taken out in Rafah today
Muhammad Shabana Head of the Rafah Brigade

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Re: What's going on in the Middle East?

Postby sMASH » May 24th, 2024, 3:22 pm

39,999 more to go.

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Re: What's going on in the Middle East?

Postby sMASH » May 24th, 2024, 3:23 pm

Oxygen is anti semite
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Re: What's going on in the Middle East?

Postby Dizzy28 » May 24th, 2024, 4:03 pm

sMASH wrote:39,999 more to go.

39,099!!!

Capture.JPG
Capture.JPG (25.71 KiB) Viewed 353 times

900 Hamas members surrender to the IDF in central Rafah

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Re: What's going on in the Middle East?

Postby Dizzy28 » May 24th, 2024, 6:02 pm

adnj wrote:Image
What BBC has is not what the ICJ said though.
Screenshot_20240524-180119.jpg


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Re: What's going on in the Middle East?

Postby sMASH » May 24th, 2024, 9:36 pm

How is that different?

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Re: What's going on in the Middle East?

Postby sMASH » May 24th, 2024, 9:38 pm

Dizzy28 wrote:
sMASH wrote:39,999 more to go.

39,099!!!

Capture.JPG

900 Hamas members surrender to the IDF in central Rafah
U will see is taxi driver, baker, farmer, teacher etc.

Israel determines a hamas fighter is any male of fightjng age.

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