The Religion Discussion

[AdamB]

they only allowing that blind buffoon to suck from their soul in the ultimate troll. there are some ppl u have to realize ull never get anywhere with. and noone is ever going to get anywhere with adamb. let him live what he believes.. two things happen in this world with ones life..

they either find truth while theyre alive or they find it when they die. i prefer the former.. but some ppl must wait till the last second before they allow their illusion to be shattered.

he is not here to learn anything. it seems he is here more on a recruitment drive. to show how his deluded powerful faith comes from islam making it the supreme religion. but all i see is brainwashed misconceptions drowned in a phallacy for a dream that will never come true.

Was not the same said about the first of the messengers, prophet Noah?

Allah / GOD is the Truth. You will not see HIM or find HIM in this life. However, the believers will see their LORD in the next life, their faces will be shining like the full moon.

This world is a paradise for the disbelievers and a prison for the believers.

The life of this world is but play and amusement.

The life of the Hereafter is better and Everlasting.

So, LIVE IT UP NOW! ENJOY!

[AdamB]

The preceding paragraph

The Gospels comprise brief, self-contained passages, or pericopēs (from the Greek word meaning “cut around”), relating to Jesus. Further study reveals that the authors of the Synoptic Gospels moved these pericopes around, altering their contexts to suit their own editorial policies—for example, by arranging the pericopes according to subject matter. In chapters 8 and 9, Matthew collects 10 healing pericopes, with a few other passages interspersed. Mark and Luke contain most of these passages, but their arrangements are different. Matthew put all of these healings in one place; Mark and Luke scattered them, but in different ways. Since the authors of the Gospels rearranged the material to suit their own needs, it must be assumed that earlier Christian teachers had also organized stories about Jesus didactically. This means that the sequence of events in Jesus’ ministry is unknown.

it continues

Moreover, the Evangelists and other early Christian teachers also shaped the material about Jesus. During the course of transmission, the factual narrative elements that surrounded each saying or event were stripped away, leaving only a central unit, which was applied to various situations by the addition of new introductions and conclusions.

The first paragraph talks about the authors of the Synoptic Gospels not be chronological but didactic. The second paragraph (yours) speaks about how some early Christians taught the Synoptic Gospels. This in no way says that the Synoptic Gospels were changed or altered in any way

Since both the original context of Jesus’ sayings and deeds and those passages in the Gospels that go back to the historical Jesus are unknown, there are substantial difficulties in attempting to reconstruct the Jesus of history. Of these two difficulties, the lack of immediate context is the more serious. It must be admitted that, on many points, precision and nuance in describing the teaching and ministry of Jesus cannot be achieved.

it continues:

There are, however, tests of authenticity that make it possible to acquire good general information about Jesus’ teachings. One of the most important of these is “multiple attestation”: a passage that appears in two or more independent sources is likely to be authentic. A prime example is the prohibition of divorce, which appears in the letters of Paul and in two different forms in the Synoptic Gospels. The short form, which is focused on remarriage after divorce, is found in Matthew 5:31–32 and Luke 16:18. The long form, which is more absolute in prohibiting divorce, appears in Matthew 19:1–12 and Mark 10:1–12. Paul’s version (1 Corinthians 7:10–11) agrees most closely with the short form. Because of this excellent attestation, it is almost indisputable that Jesus opposed divorce and especially remarriage after divorce, though study of the five passages does not reveal precisely what he said.

A second test is “against the grain of the Gospels”: a passage that seems to be contrary to one of the main themes or views expressed in one or more Gospels is likely to be authentic because the early Christians were not likely to have created material with which they disagreed. Matthew’s depiction of John the Baptist is a good example. The author apparently found it to be embarrassing that Jesus received John’s baptism of repentance (why would Jesus have needed it?). Thus, he has John protest against the baptism and claim that Jesus should instead baptize him (Matthew 3:13–17; this objection is not in Mark or Luke). These verses in Matthew assume that John recognized Jesus as being greater than he, but Matthew later shows John, in prison, sending a message to ask Jesus whether he was “the one who is to come” (Matthew 11:2–6). These passages make it virtually certain that John baptized Jesus and highly probable that John asked Jesus who he was. John’s protest against baptizing Jesus appears to be Matthew’s creation. In keeping these passages while, in effect, arguing against them, Matthew validates the authenticity of the tradition that John baptized Jesus and later enquired about his true identity.

These are only a few examples of tests that may confirm the authenticity of passages in the Gospels. In many cases, however, the criteria do not apply: many passages neither meet nor fail the tests. Grouping passages into categories—probable, improbable, possible but unconfirmed—is a useful exercise but does not go very far toward determining a realistic portrayal of Jesus as a historical figure. More is needed than just the minute study of the Gospels, though that is an essential task.

This is what I mentioned before called textual criticism where Christians allow scholars from outside their worldview to attempt to poke holes at our faith (how about you let a non-Muslim touch or even interpret the Quran). There is nothing here that proves the Gospels were redacted, or even further that historical Jesus preached a message synchronistic with Islam. There are liberal and conservative scholars who have a view about Christianity. But to claim that the Scriptures have been redacted you need to show disparity with the manuscripts, the NT manuscripts are the most plentiful and synchronistic of all of antiquity.

Denial is a hell of a thing, literally!!

The glaring proof right in front of you, yet you deny!!

Whoever desires to worship a man, let him do so. GOD is not in need of his worship for his survival. HE is free of all wants and needs, including the need to have a son or the need to have help to manage the affairs of HIS creation.

But whoever desires to worship the ONE TRUE GOD, let him seek guidance. It is only in Islam that this concept has been kept intact.

[AdamB]

Though we may not all share the same religious beliefs or be religious at all, this is a very good discussion going here. It forces us to ponder some very profound ideas and questions. At the end of it all (if the discussion ever ends) some of us will continue to believe what we have always believed while some will begin to question the things we believe. Despite whichever side of the fence we stand on, we are forced to provide most importantly to ourselves a reason for our beliefs.

But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect... 1 Peter 3:15

You obviously know on which side I stand. Let me begin by saying that I do not profess to know everything nor am I closed to any other opinion. I believe that God is real. I can think of many everyday personal experiences that prove to me that God exists but none of my testimonies would prove anything those of us who already believe otherwise. The Psalmist says O taste and see that the Lord is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him. Psalms 34:8. I think that each of us needs to search out God for ourselves. I cannot merely tell you that He exists nor can you tell me that He doesn't if I know to myself that I have a personal relationship with him. I do not think that we can ever prove that God exists by scientific means or believe that he does without a reliance on some measure of faith.

"There are enough evidences for God's existence to convince anyone who seriously tries to discover the truth about Him. Faith in God, however, is not blind. It is based on sufficient evidence found both in God's revelations through the Scriptures and through nature".

Nature testifies to God's existence. There is precision and order everywhere that points to intelligent design. The distance of the Moon from the Earth, The size of the earth, The angle of the Earth, The speed of the Earths rotation etc. all these factors working together to sustain life. When we consider the 'miracle' of birth and look at the animals all around instinctively caring for their young, birds building their nests, hibernation, migration how can we not believe in the Bible account of creation and the existence of God.

The Bible, God's holy word also attests to the existence of God, it doesn't attempt to prove that he exists but just assumes that he does from the very start. It reveals God's character, His love, His mercy, His justice, the origin and the eventual destruction of the Earth, the reward of Christians and Sinners alike. I have never come across any other 'book' with such power that has positively transformed the lives of men and women from age to age no matter their circumstances. If we would read the Bible prayerfully and with an attitude of humility we would find the answers we seek.


Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. Matthew 7:7

Thanks for sharing Nemo,

All religions teach good manners, etiquettes and conduct. THE ONE TRUE GOD commands that you worship none but HIM. Search between the heavens and the Earth, you will find that all rules / statements have exceptions except this one.

Satan is clever, he has played on the weaknesses of man to distract them from the true worship directed to the One True GOD ONLY.

Ask GOD to show you TRUTH as TRUTH and FALSEHOOD as FALSEHOOD.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

you forgot one:

Since you believe empirical science is the arbiter of truth, use it to prove Caesar Augustus existed.

Or do you even believe he existed?

I am more familiar with Julius Caesar

but a quick search brings up:
"Augustus, also called Augustus Caesar or (until 27 bce) Octavian, original name Gaius Octavius, adopted name Gaius Julius Caesar Octavianus (born Sept. 23, 63 bce—died Aug. 19, 14 ce, Nola, near Naples [Italy]), first Roman emperor, following the republic, which had been finally destroyed by the dictatorship of Julius Caesar, his great-uncle and adoptive father."

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/top ... 7/Augustus

There seems to be empirical evidence from multiple sources that he existed - so to answer you directly, after reading these, yes I believe he existed.

Duane...this not empirical evidence, this is historical evidence.


I'll give you another chance, remember, empirical evidence only.

can you tell me what is the difference between empirical and historical evidence?

I am not so sure what you want it to mean.
so here are some artifacts from the time of Augustus Caesar with his name and likeness displayed.

[MG Man]

AdamB how can you say believers will see their lord in the next life when all along, you have been proclaiming your god has no form?

[Habit7]

Empirical Evidence is evidence based on observation and experimentation
Historical Evidence is evidence based on primary sources (when it happen) of secondary sources (after it happen)

The historical evidence we have for Caesar Augustus on primary sources are coins and busts (like what you posted), legal documents etc. then we have secondary sources like ancient historians.

Empirical evidence would be a body that we could subject to observation and experimentation.

[AdamB]

AdamB how can you say believers will see their lord in the next life when all along, you have been proclaiming your god has no form?

MGMan,
There is hope for you yet!

Where have I said that GOD has no form? We muslims affirm for GOD what HE affirms for HIMSELF in the Quran and Sunnah. HE said HE has 2 hands, feet, a face, eyes, fingers.

1. We don't add to this.
2. We don't say that it resembles that which exists in the Creation.
3. We don't say that the physical attributes of the Creation resembles the attributes of Allah.
4. WE DON'T SAY THAT HE HAS A BODY / FORM!! HE DID NOT SAY THAT (this is the point of evidence in response to your post).
5. We don't say how are HIS attributes, we were not informed.
6. WE SAY HIS ATTRIBUTES, HOWEVER IT IS, IT IS BEFITTING TO HIS MAJESTY, AND ALLAH KNOWS BEST!!

7. We were informed with authentic evidence that believers will see HIM (well specifically HIS face) on the Day of Judgment. We believe that there is nothing better or more pleasurable for man than to see the Face of Allah, not even the pleasures of Paradise.

May Allah guide you all to the Truth and to HIS good pleasure.

[16 cycles]

"People live their lives bound by what they accept as correct and true. That's how they define "reality". But what does it mean to be "correct" or "true"? Merely vague concepts ... their "reality" may all be a mirage. Can we consider them to simply be living in their own world, shaped by their beliefs?"

Itachi

[AdamB]

"People live their lives bound by what they accept as correct and true. That's how they define "reality". But what does it mean to be "correct" or "true"? Merely vague concepts ... their "reality" may all be a mirage. Can we consider them to simply be living in their own world, shaped by their beliefs?"

Itachi

And some use "philosophy" to shape their world, their reality.

The irony: Is philosophy merely vague concepts?

[16 cycles]

^careful you make a case for scientific concepts being used to shape the world....

[AdamB]

Adamb preparing a loong copy and paste from his online jihad manifesto, and then gonna blue text and big font it, without answering your question.

I'm sure its not me alone notice this.

There is much you don't notice despite the blue text and big fonting!

When Allah wills that you pass away and if what I say is true, then the evidence has been established against you in bold, blue, big font text!

[AdamB]

they only allowing that blind buffoon to suck from their soul in the ultimate troll. there are some ppl u have to realize ull never get anywhere with. and noone is ever going to get anywhere with adamb. let him live what he believes.. two things happen in this world with ones life..

they either find truth while theyre alive or they find it when they die. i prefer the former.. but some ppl must wait till the last second before they allow their illusion to be shattered.

he is not here to learn anything. it seems he is here more on a recruitment drive. to show how his deluded powerful faith comes from islam making it the supreme religion. but all i see is brainwashed misconceptions drowned in a phallacy for a dream that will never come true.

Was not the same said about the first of the messengers, prophet Noah?

Allah / GOD is the Truth. You will not see HIM or find HIM in this life. However, the believers will see their LORD in the next life, their faces will be shining like the full moon.

This world is a paradise for the disbelievers and a prison for the believers.

The life of this world is but play and amusement.

The life of the Hereafter is better and Everlasting.

So, LIVE IT UP NOW! ENJOY!

Why did you choose the brainwashed misconceptions of Christianity?

When the disbeliever is being questioned in the grave, he will will only be able to say "Ahh ahh, I don't know, I only said what the people said."

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Empirical Evidence is evidence based on observation and experimentation
Historical Evidence is evidence based on primary sources (when it happen) of secondary sources (after it happen)

The historical evidence we have for Caesar Augustus on primary sources are coins and busts (like what you posted), legal documents etc. then we have secondary sources like ancient historians.

Empirical evidence would be a body that we could subject to observation and experimentation.

ok I'm waiting for you to make a point

[Habit7]

Empirical evidence is not the only way to prove some thing is true.

[JohnR]

Worship the Creator not the creation...don't be deceived. What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.

[Kasey]

Worship the Creator not the creation...don't be deceived. What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.

Why does the creator need worshipping? And has he spoken to you to know this?

[rocknrolla]

Worship the Creator not the creation...don't be deceived. What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.

Why does the creator need worshipping? And has he spoken to you to know this?

"need" im not sure.. but there is this little thing called gratitude.

the proposition.. is the God who's essence has no form and is central light of divinity.. gave us a spark from his light to nurture and grow for ourselves. one day we can be like him.. but by then he'd probably be eooonnss further than he was when we started.

he didnt have to give us our own life force. he didnt have to give us any free will. the least we can do is give jack his jacket.. this creation is the accomplishment of a most marvellous feat. and because of him.. u are here to partake in it.

and think about it.. if u take him for a friend, and ur heart is loyal and true and he sees into ur heart to verify this.. dont friends look out for onr another? how jealously would he guard his friends?

[MG Man]

Pretty sure starving kids in africa are full of gratitude

[rocknrolla]

Pretty sure starving kids in africa are full of gratitude

the reason they are suffering is all attributed to man.

since u dont believe in God. u shouldnt have any problem accepting the blame. since it is fault of science and capitalism exploiting the mineral resources in their countries whilst giving them nothing in return.

noone is teaching them how the system works, they dont even have school. capitalism just plundered the continent, killed and exploited the ppl. they have yet to receive anything in return for what their land has given to the entire world!

the american indians got casino lands after what was done to their ppl in driving them out of their lands.

the indos in trinidad got land for working the fields. black ppl havent gotten anything.. in any country.

yet, they are the original possessors of the riches that fill this world. their blood and sweat slaved over lands across the globe as slaves. yet.. they are yet to receive any form of reparations.. none.

so in this Godless world.. who's fault is that?


such is the evils of logic only driven individuals and society. they see the world in a set of unconscious protocols that are followed. this logic only mentality is akin to a machine. a robot. rules define its behaviour and it can never break those rules. it has no free will of its own. it has no emotion. it is.. inhumane!

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Empirical evidence is not the only way to prove some thing is true.

I never said it was.

there are many forms of evidence, even circumstantial evidence. Then there is testing of evidence.

the issue here is that you have a claim and the only evidence you have is from a book that claims the book is true. There are also conflicting accounts from other Holy Books and there is also conflicting evidence. You cannot prove the other books are wrong and your book is right and you cannot deny the evidence, all you can do is ignore it and tell yourself it's a conspiracy.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

the reason they are suffering is all attributed to man.

since u dont believe in God. u shouldnt have any problem accepting the blame. since it is fault of science and capitalism exploiting the mineral resources in their countries whilst giving them nothing in return.

noone is teaching them how the system works, they dont even have school. capitalism just plundered the continent, killed and exploited the ppl. they have yet to receive anything in return for what their land has given to the entire world!

and what was the reason for drought, famine and disease before there was capitalism?

What is the reason for thousands of people dying from earthquakes or hurricanes or even the more than 1,000 people who were injured, including more than 200 children from meteors? is that Capitalism too?

Are you saying God allows a baby in Africa to suffer because of capitalism that happened on Wall Street. Did that baby deserve that?

[rocknrolla]

or u can do ur 'testing' on the book. follow it's instructions and see where it leads. did u complete the experiment and discover that it was a bum experiment?

id also like to add that even tho it is common consensus that the books contradict each other. my view is that they all compliment eachother.

however, the books are meant to cover both sides of the spectrum. there is the logical element, and there is the creative element. this is the whole picture. taking one or the other will leave u with an incomplete picture.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ how do you know which parts are logical and which parts are creative? Which parts are to be taken literally and which parts are not?

[rocknrolla]

the reason they are suffering is all attributed to man.

since u dont believe in God. u shouldnt have any problem accepting the blame. since it is fault of science and capitalism exploiting the mineral resources in their countries whilst giving them nothing in return.

noone is teaching them how the system works, they dont even have school. capitalism just plundered the continent, killed and exploited the ppl. they have yet to receive anything in return for what their land has given to the entire world!

and what was the reason for drought, famine and disease before there was capitalism?

What is the reason for thousands of people dying from earthquakes or hurricanes or even the more than 1,000 people who were injured, including more than 200 children from meteors? is that Capitalism too?

Are you saying God allows a baby in Africa to suffer because of capitalism that happened on Wall Street. Did that baby deserve that?

at one time God lived among the people. but the people turned away from their creator and worshipped other Gods for their 'magic'. so God left.

this is what the bible says.. meaning God is no longer here. we didnt care for him so now if we want him we have to go to him ourselves.

that is the story and may well be just a story. but the point is, You have to seek God. and if u werent sure that was the message.. they say it later on more plainly.. "seek ye the kingdom of Heaven."

sounds like a mission to undertake. have u been seeking? or did u just give it fantasy status which places it in the category.. too ridiculously fantastic to take seriously. but look around u and the being u are. isnt God a ridiculously fantastic being?

[rocknrolla]

^ how do you know which parts are logical and which parts are creative? Which parts are to be taken literally and which parts are not?

searching far and wide will take u down the yellow brick road. a trail of breadcrumbs u must follow. until it all culminates in a revelation of truth.

the above statement is true.. both logically and metaphorically.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ how do you know which parts are logical and which parts are creative? Which parts are to be taken literally and which parts are not?

searching far and wide will take u down the yellow brick road. a trail of breadcrumbs u must follow. until it all culminates in a revelation of truth.

the above statement is true.. both logically and metaphorically.

so are you saying that the book "The Wonderful Wizard of Oz" by L. Frank Baum is comparable to the Bible?

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

the reason they are suffering is all attributed to man.

since u dont believe in God. u shouldnt have any problem accepting the blame. since it is fault of science and capitalism exploiting the mineral resources in their countries whilst giving them nothing in return.

noone is teaching them how the system works, they dont even have school. capitalism just plundered the continent, killed and exploited the ppl. they have yet to receive anything in return for what their land has given to the entire world!

and what was the reason for drought, famine and disease before there was capitalism?

What is the reason for thousands of people dying from earthquakes or hurricanes or even the more than 1,000 people who were injured, including more than 200 children from meteors? is that Capitalism too?

Are you saying God allows a baby in Africa to suffer because of capitalism that happened on Wall Street. Did that baby deserve that?

at one time God lived among the people. but the people turned away from their creator and worshipped other Gods for their 'magic'. so God left.

this is what the bible says.. meaning God is no longer here. we didnt care for him so now if we want him we have to go to him ourselves.

that is the story and may well be just a story. but the point is, You have to seek God. and if u werent sure that was the message.. they say it later on more plainly.. "seek ye the kingdom of Heaven."

sounds like a mission to undertake. have u been seeking? or did u just give it fantasy status which places it in the category.. too ridiculously fantastic to take seriously. but look around u and the being u are. isnt God a ridiculously fantastic being?

yes he is, given the claims made

but what i am trying to figure out is which account is correct.

What makes the Bible right and the Qur'an wrong? or are you just basing your belief that the Bible is truth on your preconceptions and faith?

[marlener]

I`ve been reading for quite a while with no comment,just out of curiousity seeing that nareshsheep and a couple other don`t believe in God,whose fault do they think it is? What is your take on it Duane,what do you think is the cause?

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

I`ve been reading for quite a while with no comment,just out of curiousity seeing that nareshsheep and a couple other don`t believe in God,whose fault do they think it is? What is your take on it Duane,what do you think is the cause?

well whose fault is it that you don't believe Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are God?

[marlener]

It`s no one fault it was my choice,that was the answer to which question by the way??