The Religion Discussion

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

you forgot one:

Since you believe empirical science is the arbiter of truth, use it to prove Caesar Augustus existed.

Or do you even believe he existed?

I am more familiar with Julius Caesar

but a quick search brings up:
"Augustus, also called Augustus Caesar or (until 27 bce) Octavian, original name Gaius Octavius, adopted name Gaius Julius Caesar Octavianus (born Sept. 23, 63 bce—died Aug. 19, 14 ce, Nola, near Naples [Italy]), first Roman emperor, following the republic, which had been finally destroyed by the dictatorship of Julius Caesar, his great-uncle and adoptive father."

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/top ... 7/Augustus

There seems to be empirical evidence from multiple sources that he existed - so to answer you directly, after reading these, yes I believe he existed.

[AdamB]

you forgot one:

Since you believe empirical science is the arbiter of truth, use it to prove Caesar Augustus existed.

Or do you even believe he existed?

I am more familiar with Julius Caesar

but a quick search brings up:
"Augustus, also called Augustus Caesar or (until 27 bce) Octavian, original name Gaius Octavius, adopted name Gaius Julius Caesar Octavianus (born Sept. 23, 63 bce—died Aug. 19, 14 ce, Nola, near Naples [Italy]), first Roman emperor, following the republic, which had been finally destroyed by the dictatorship of Julius Caesar, his great-uncle and adoptive father."

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/top ... 7/Augustus

There seems to be empirical evidence from multiple sources that he existed - so to answer you directly, after reading these, yes I believe he existed.

Duane,
Could you comment (for the benefit of Habit7) on whether there is sufficient "empirical evidence" of the "historical Jesus"?
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/top ... e-of-Jesus

Jesus Christ, also called Jesus of Galilee or Jesus of Nazareth (born c. 6–4 bc, Bethlehem—died c. ad 30, Jerusalem), founder of Christianity, one of the world’s largest religions, and the incarnation of God according to most Christians. His teachings and deeds are recorded in the New Testament, which is essentially a theological document that makes discovery of the “historical Jesus” difficult.
The only substantial sources for the life and message of Jesus are the Gospels of the New Testament, the earliest of which was Mark (written ad 60–80), followed by Matthew, Luke, and John (ad 75–90). Some additional evidence can be found in the letters of Paul, which were written beginning in ad 50 and are the earliest surviving Christian texts.

The letters of Paul contain reliable but meagre evidence.

Josephus wrote a paragraph about Jesus (The Antiquities of the Jews 18.63ff.), as he did about Theudas, the Egyptian, and other charismatic leaders (History of the Jewish War 2.258–263; The Antiquities of the Jews 20.97–99, 167–172), but it has been heavily revised by Christian scribes, and Josephus’s original remarks cannot be discerned.

Since the authors of the Gospels rearranged the material to suit their own needs, it must be assumed that earlier Christian teachers had also organized stories about Jesus didactically. This means that the sequence of events in Jesus’ ministry is unknown.

Moreover, the Evangelists and other early Christian teachers also shaped the material about Jesus. During the course of transmission, the factual narrative elements that surrounded each saying or event were stripped away, leaving only a central unit, which was applied to various situations by the addition of new introductions and conclusions.
And you guys want evidence of when the bible was changed!!

Since both the original context of Jesus’ sayings and deeds and those passages in the Gospels that go back to the historical Jesus are unknown, there are substantial difficulties in attempting to reconstruct the Jesus of history. Of these two difficulties, the lack of immediate context is the more serious. It must be admitted that, on many points, precision and nuance in describing the teaching and ministry of Jesus cannot be achieved.

The above is from Encyclopaedia Britannica.

[AdamB]

Interesting discussion going here. Good question bluefete especially in these times we living in. More and more you wonder what going on in this world. Are we just here to have a grand old time, just live it up, dead and done or is there some purpose to our existence.

What is your take / opinion....and why?

[AdamB]

the evidence was never new to begin with as we already settled as well. it was always their.. but science just didnt have the eyes to see it. and the same will come of the human soul. they dont know how to detect it yet.. but it is there.

They can't prove that it doesn't exist and we can't prove that it does. So how can we affirm what we can't prove?

Back to the burden of proof argument!

[DFC]

Adamb can you provide empirical evidence that Muhammed split the moon in halves?

[AdamB]

Adamb can you provide empirical evidence that Muhammed split the moon in halves?

If there is a GOD the creator of everything...could HE split the moon and put it back together...and leave evidence that it was split in REALITY?

[Habit7]

you forgot one:

Since you believe empirical science is the arbiter of truth, use it to prove Caesar Augustus existed.

Or do you even believe he existed?

I am more familiar with Julius Caesar

but a quick search brings up:
"Augustus, also called Augustus Caesar or (until 27 bce) Octavian, original name Gaius Octavius, adopted name Gaius Julius Caesar Octavianus (born Sept. 23, 63 bce—died Aug. 19, 14 ce, Nola, near Naples [Italy]), first Roman emperor, following the republic, which had been finally destroyed by the dictatorship of Julius Caesar, his great-uncle and adoptive father."

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/top ... 7/Augustus

There seems to be empirical evidence from multiple sources that he existed - so to answer you directly, after reading these, yes I believe he existed.

Duane...this not empirical evidence, this is historical evidence.


I'll give you another chance, remember, empirical evidence only.

[bluefete]

and can you please show me where these cave drawings of dinosaurs were found?

Take a read Duane! It's too long to copy.

http://www.genesispark.com/exhibits/evi ... /dinosaur/

What is interesting here is how ancient civilizations knew what dinosaurs looked like to draw them if they did not exist at the same time as humans.

Remember that modern man only started putting dinosaur fossils togeter in the last 150-200 years.

Go figure.

alot of those have been debunked

http://www.livescience.com/13448-dinosa ... unked.html

if there was real empirical evidence that dinosaurs and man lived together on earth at the same time it would make major international news and it would be taught in schools.

the scientific method is unbiased. It has no reason to hold on to a lie.

Duane - Please!! That lady is stating an opinion NOT fact.

There are many dinosaurs that we have no idea what they looked like. We can only speculate. So for this scientist to debunk based on eye observation and "possibilities" makes a mockery of your science as fact.

I fully agree with this commentator below:

Mark Markavelli Denis · Works at Self Employed Entrepreneur
This article is RUBBISH! LOL! There are THOUSANDS of sculptures and pictures from ancient, DEVELOPED civilizations that accurately depict dinosaurs down to the texture of their skin. What this article claims as definite "proof that dinosaurs and man did not live together" is utter crap. And its not really the average student's fault that they believe this either... *sigh* so sad. But that's the Western World for you.

[Habit7]

It is amazing that AdamB posted a redacted version of the Encyclopaedia Britannica article on Jesus to convince us that redacted passages should not be trusted.

But AdamB, read Encyclopaedia Britannica articles on the Quran or Muhammad and see if it is all consistent with Islam

[MG Man]

it doesn't mesh well with theories such as an asteroid hitting Earth and surgically killing off all the dinosaurs while leaving other reptiles and mammals, .

this alone shows the depth of your ignorance
arguing or debating with you makes as much sense as peeing on a car tyre and expecting it to get up and roll away

[AdamB]

When Jesus returns, what will be the signs? Did you (habit7) accept Sai Baba as GOD and why/why not?

Why would a Christian accept sai baba? Where do you get these dotish questions?

Sent from my LG-P880 using TriniTuner mobile app

If he claimed to be the reincarnation/resurrection of Christ.

When Jesus returns, wouldn't he have to say that he is "the Christ"? How would you know the TRUE Jesus from the FALSE Jesus? What are the signs?

If he is a man / prophet as Islam says he is, then how would you know the difference? How would you know man from "son of GOD"?

[Habit7]

it doesn't mesh well with theories such as an asteroid hitting Earth and surgically killing off all the dinosaurs while leaving other reptiles and mammals, .

this alone shows the depth of your ignorance

Please be more specific, I promise not to respond with posts of swathes of scriptural text along with big fonting and use of every spectrum of font colour.

[rocknrolla]

some ppl seem to think sai baba performed real miracles... pleeaase! ppl like him are the reason ppl wont believe jesus if he does return.

[AdamB]

REMINDER FOR HABIT7:

He has sent down upon you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel. (3:3)

2 Allah! La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), Al-Hayyul-Qayyum (the Ever Living, the One Who sustains and protects all that exists).

3 It is He Who has sent down the Book (the Qur'an) to you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) with truth, confirming what came before it. And He sent down the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel),

4 Aforetime, as a guidance to mankind. And He sent down the criterion [of judgement between right and wrong (this Qur'an)]. Truly, those who disbelieve in the Ayat (proofs, evidence, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah, for them there is a severe torment; and Allah is All-Mighty, All-Able of Retribution.

5 Truly, nothing is hidden from Allah, in the earth or in the heaven.

These verses don't say that the previous scriptures have been preserved.

And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming that which came before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel, in which was guidance and light and confirming that which preceded it of the Torah as guidance and instruction for the righteous. (5:46)

Neither does this one...
and...


And certainly were messengers denied before you, but they were patient over [the effects of] denial, and they were harmed until Our victory came to them. And none can alter the words of Allah . And there has certainly come to you some information about the [previous] messengers. (6:34)

34 Verily, (many) Messengers were denied before you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم), but with patience they bore the denial, and they were hurt; till Our Help reached them, and none can alter the Words (Decisions) of Allah. Surely there has reached you the information (news) about the Messengers (before you).
This verse is not in reference to the previous scriptures. Note "Decisions" in bracket and from the tafsir of ibn kathir:
Then, victory came to them in this life, just as victory is theirs in the Hereafter. Allah said,

﴿وَلاَ مُبَدِّلَ لِكَلِمَـتِ اللَّهِ﴾
(and none can alter the Words of Allah.) This refers to His decision that victory in this life and the Hereafter is for His believing servants.

.

For them are good tidings in the worldly life and in the Hereafter. No change is there in the words of Allah . That is what is the great attainment. (10:64)

From the tafsir of ibn kathir:(No change can there be in the Words of Allah.) meaning, this promise doesn't change or breach or fall short. It is decreed and firm, and going to happen undoubtedly.

It refers to the promise of good tidings in the worldly life and in the Hereafter. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PREVIOUS SCRIPTURES.
yet...

THIS IS HOW THE BIBLE HAS BEEN TAMPERED WITH AND CHANGED....HOW THEN WILL THEY BE GUIDED TO THE TRUTH!!

Habit7,
Muslims don't change the meaning of the Quran, it has been established and explained by the Mufassiroon, those who explain the meaning of the Quran. This is an entire science / field of study. They go by evidence and not feelings and heresay.

The Bible is not the Words of Allah. The Torah and the Injil refer to the revelation to Moses and Jesus respectively, in the language they were revealed. The stories / narratives put in the bible are not these revelations. The Gospel of Jesus is not any of the four in the New Testament.

You take your New Testament as BIBLE when it has no basis, it was written after the time of Jesus and not by Jesus himself and certainly there was no approval for it by Jesus.

So why not NOW accept the Quran as your criterion between right and wrong that has been preserved, pristinely? It confirms what came before and IS THE WORD OF ALLAH/GOD!

[AdamB]

It is amazing that AdamB posted a redacted version of the Encyclopaedia Britannica article on Jesus to convince us that redacted passages should not be trusted.

But AdamB, read Encyclopaedia Britannica articles on the Quran or Muhammad and see if it is all consistent with Islam

Kasey I think you are alluding to the subjective, I am making my point based on the objective. Based on the archaeological and historical methods we verify documents of ancient times, the Bible supersedes the Quran by leaps and bounds.

the Bible outweighs the Qu'ran by manuscript evidence (the means by which historians verify historical data) and archaeological evidence.

Plus I outlined to Sacchetto that Muhammad advised his followers to observe the Torah, Psalms and Gospel and that these book can never be corrupted.

Did you respond to this:

Speaking of evidence, you want to provide that untampered, Islamic Torah, Psalms and Gospel that affirms Islam?

Why don't you examine your bible to see if the Old Testament affirms the New Testament WITHOUT CHANGING the meaning of the Old Testament?

Forgot about this:

[Say (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم)] "Shall I seek a judge other than Allah while it is He Who has sent down unto you the Book (the Qur'an), explained in detail." Those unto whom We gave the Scripture [the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] know that it is revealed from your Lord in truth. So be not you of those who doubt. And the Word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can change His Words. And He is the All-Hearer, the All-Knower. (6:114-1115)



Where is this Torah and Gospel than cannot change that affirms Islam?

Again, from tafsir ibn Kathir 6:114-117 Let us examine the correct meaning of the verses:

(114. ﴿Say:﴾ "Shall I seek a judge other than Allah while it is He Who has sent down unto you the Book, explained in detail." Those unto whom We gave the Scripture know that it is revealed from your Lord in truth. So be not you of those who doubt.) (115. And the Word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can change His Words. And He is the All-Hearer, the All-Knower.) Allah tells His Prophet to say to these polytheists who worship others besides Allah,

﴿أَفَغَيْرَ اللَّهِ أَبْتَغِى حَكَماً﴾

(Shall I seek a judge other than Allah...) between you and I,

﴿وَهُوَ الَّذِى أَنَزَلَ إِلَيْكُمُ الْكِتَـبَ مُفَصَّلاً﴾

(while it is He Who has sent down unto you the Book, explained...) in detail,

﴿وَالَّذِينَ ءَاتَيْنَـهُمُ الْكِتَـبَ﴾

(and those unto whom We gave the Scripture) the Jews and the Christians,

﴿يَعْلَمُونَ أَنَّهُ مُنَزَّلٌ مِّن رَّبِّكَ بِالْحَقِّ﴾

(know that it is revealed from your Lord in truth.) because the previous Prophets have conveyed the good news of you coming to them. Allah's statement,

﴿فَلاَ تَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الْمُمْتَرِينَ﴾

(So be not you of those who doubt.) is similar to His other statement,

﴿فَإِن كُنتَ فِي شَكٍّ مِّمَّآ أَنزَلْنَآ إِلَيْكَ فَاسْأَلِ الَّذِينَ يَقْرَءُونَ الْكِتَـبَ مِن قَبْلِكَ لَقَدْ جَآءَكَ الْحَقُّ مِن رَّبِّكَ فَلاَ تَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الْمُمْتَرِينَ ﴾

(So if you are in doubt concerning that which We have revealed unto you, then ask those who are reading the Book before you. Verily, the truth has come to you from your Lord. So be not of those who doubt (it).) ﴿10:94﴾ The conditional `if' in this Ayah does not mean that `doubt' will ever occur to the Prophet . Allah said,

﴿وَتَمَّتْ كَلِمَةُ رَبِّكَ صِدْقاً وَعَدْلاً﴾

(And the Word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice.) Qatadah commented, "In truth concerning what He stated and in justice concerning what He decided.'' Surely, whatever Allah says is the truth and He is Most Just in what He commands. All of Allah's statements are true, there is no doubt or cause for speculation about this fact, and all His commandments are pure justice, besides which there is no justice. All that He forbade is evil, for He only forbids what brings about evil consequences. Allah said in another Ayah,

﴿يَأْمُرُهُم بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَيَنْهَـهُمْ عَنِ الْمُنْكَرِ﴾

(He commands them with good; and forbids them from evil...) ﴿7:157﴾ until the end of the Ayah.

﴿لاَ مُبَدِّلَ لِكَلِمَـتِهِ﴾

(None can change His Words.) meaning, none can avert Allah's judgment whether in this life or the Hereafter,

﴿وَهُوَ السَّمِيعُ﴾

(And He is the All-Hearer,) Hearing, His servants' statements,

﴿الْعَلِيمُ﴾

(The All-Knower.) of their activities and lack of activity, Who awards each according to their deeds.

﴿وَإِن تُطِعْ أَكْثَرَ مَن فِى الاٌّرْضِ يُضِلُّوكَ عَن سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ إِن يَتَّبِعُونَ إِلاَّ الظَّنَّ وَإِنْ هُمْ إِلاَّ يَخْرُصُونَ - إِنَّ رَبَّكَ هُوَ أَعْلَمُ مَن يَضِلُّ عَن سَبِيلِهِ وَهُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِالْمُهْتَدِينَ ﴾

(116. And if you obey most of those on the earth, they will mislead you far away from Allah's path. They follow nothing but conjecture, and they do nothing but lie.) (117. Verily, your Lord! It is He Who knows best who strays from His way, and He knows best the rightly guided.)]


Most People are Misguided

Allah states that most of the people of the earth, are misguided. Allah said in other Ayat,

﴿وَلَقَدْ ضَلَّ قَبْلَهُمْ أَكْثَرُ الاٌّوَّلِينَ ﴾

(And indeed most of the men of old went astray before them.) ﴿37:71﴾ and,

﴿وَمَآ أَكْثَرُ النَّاسِ وَلَوْ حَرَصْتَ بِمُؤْمِنِينَ ﴾

(And most of mankind will not believe even if you eagerly desire it.)﴿12:103﴾ They are misguided, yet they have doubts about their way, and they rely on wishful thinking and delusions.

﴿إِن يَتَّبِعُونَ إِلاَّ الظَّنَّ وَإِنْ هُمْ إِلاَّ يَخْرُصُونَ﴾

(They follow nothing but conjecture, and they do nothing but lie.) Thus, they fulfill Allah's decree and decision concerning them,

﴿هُوَ أَعْلَمُ مَن يَضِلُّ عَن سَبِيلِهِ﴾

(It is He Who knows best who strays from His way.) and facilitates that for him,

﴿وَهُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِالْمُهْتَدِينَ﴾

(And He knows best the rightly guided.) He facilitates that for them, all of them are facilitated for what He created them.

[MG Man]

it doesn't mesh well with theories such as an asteroid hitting Earth and surgically killing off all the dinosaurs while leaving other reptiles and mammals, .

this alone shows the depth of your ignorance

Please be more specific, I promise not to respond with posts of swathes of scriptural text along with big fonting and use of every spectrum of font colour.

arguing or debating with you makes as much sense as peeing on a car tyre and expecting it to get up and roll away

[Habit7]

^^^point proven

Yes AdamB I did respond

Speaking of evidence, you want to provide that untampered, Islamic Torah, Psalms and Gospel that affirms Islam?

Why don't you examine your bible to see if the Old Testament affirms the New Testament WITHOUT CHANGING the meaning of the Old Testament?

Isaiah 52:13-15 and Isaiah 53, Bible scholars call this the 5th Gospel.

but I digress,

Present your untampered Bible, you cannot say something is tampered without presenting the original?

[AdamB]

it doesn't mesh well with theories such as an asteroid hitting Earth and surgically killing off all the dinosaurs while leaving other reptiles and mammals, .

this alone shows the depth of your ignorance

Please be more specific, I promise not to respond with posts of swathes of scriptural text along with big fonting and use of every spectrum of font colour.

arguing or debating with you makes as much sense as peeing on a car tyre and expecting it to get up and roll away

What about arguing / debating with me? lol

[AdamB]

^^^point proven

Yes AdamB I did respond

Speaking of evidence, you want to provide that untampered, Islamic Torah, Psalms and Gospel that affirms Islam?

Why don't you examine your bible to see if the Old Testament affirms the New Testament WITHOUT CHANGING the meaning of the Old Testament?

Isaiah 52:13-15 and Isaiah 53, Bible scholars call this the 5th Gospel.

but I digress,

Present your untampered Bible, you cannot say something is tampered without presenting the original?

Historians @ Britannica say your texts have been cut and additions made by Bible scholars. Are they wrong?

[Habit7]

Wow I love you again gloss over my challenge and pose a leading question.

But sorry, when I read your redacted elements of the Britannica article and read the actual article I see you posting them out of context. Please for my sake, post Britannica's strongest claim that the Bible's "texts have been cut and additions made by Bible scholars."

[AdamB]

Wow I love you again gloss over my challenge and pose a leading question.

But sorry, when I read your redacted elements of the Britannica article and read the actual article I see you posting them out of context. Please for my sake, post Britannica's strongest claim that the Bible's "texts have been cut and additions made by Bible scholars."

Moreover, the Evangelists and other early Christian teachers also shaped the material about Jesus. During the course of transmission, the factual narrative elements that surrounded each saying or event were stripped away, leaving only a central unit, which was applied to various situations by the addition of new introductions and conclusions.

Since both the original context of Jesus’ sayings and deeds and those passages in the Gospels that go back to the historical Jesus are unknown, there are substantial difficulties in attempting to reconstruct the Jesus of history. Of these two difficulties, the lack of immediate context is the more serious. It must be admitted that, on many points, precision and nuance in describing the teaching and ministry of Jesus cannot be achieved.

The above is from Encyclopaedia Britannica (with no addition of new introductions and conclusions).

[rocknrolla]

i tire of all this dogmatic drivel. if u can handle it.. consider this ur initiation into the truth of existence. to realize the true spiritual self. i read the books of Manly p Hall at age 12. this information is not without merit or evidence for the true seeker. for those stuck in religious dogma they may reject this information. but that choice is neither here nor there with me. the direction and doorway to the path has been presented. a truly inquisitive mind will find his way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJJdy_wW ... ata_player

[Habit7]

The preceding paragraph

The Gospels comprise brief, self-contained passages, or pericopēs (from the Greek word meaning “cut around”), relating to Jesus. Further study reveals that the authors of the Synoptic Gospels moved these pericopes around, altering their contexts to suit their own editorial policies—for example, by arranging the pericopes according to subject matter. In chapters 8 and 9, Matthew collects 10 healing pericopes, with a few other passages interspersed. Mark and Luke contain most of these passages, but their arrangements are different. Matthew put all of these healings in one place; Mark and Luke scattered them, but in different ways. Since the authors of the Gospels rearranged the material to suit their own needs, it must be assumed that earlier Christian teachers had also organized stories about Jesus didactically. This means that the sequence of events in Jesus’ ministry is unknown.

it continues

Moreover, the Evangelists and other early Christian teachers also shaped the material about Jesus. During the course of transmission, the factual narrative elements that surrounded each saying or event were stripped away, leaving only a central unit, which was applied to various situations by the addition of new introductions and conclusions.

The first paragraph talks about the authors of the Synoptic Gospels not be chronological but didactic. The second paragraph (yours) speaks about how some early Christians taught the Synoptic Gospels. This in no way says that the Synoptic Gospels were changed or altered in any way

Since both the original context of Jesus’ sayings and deeds and those passages in the Gospels that go back to the historical Jesus are unknown, there are substantial difficulties in attempting to reconstruct the Jesus of history. Of these two difficulties, the lack of immediate context is the more serious. It must be admitted that, on many points, precision and nuance in describing the teaching and ministry of Jesus cannot be achieved.

it continues:

There are, however, tests of authenticity that make it possible to acquire good general information about Jesus’ teachings. One of the most important of these is “multiple attestation”: a passage that appears in two or more independent sources is likely to be authentic. A prime example is the prohibition of divorce, which appears in the letters of Paul and in two different forms in the Synoptic Gospels. The short form, which is focused on remarriage after divorce, is found in Matthew 5:31–32 and Luke 16:18. The long form, which is more absolute in prohibiting divorce, appears in Matthew 19:1–12 and Mark 10:1–12. Paul’s version (1 Corinthians 7:10–11) agrees most closely with the short form. Because of this excellent attestation, it is almost indisputable that Jesus opposed divorce and especially remarriage after divorce, though study of the five passages does not reveal precisely what he said.

A second test is “against the grain of the Gospels”: a passage that seems to be contrary to one of the main themes or views expressed in one or more Gospels is likely to be authentic because the early Christians were not likely to have created material with which they disagreed. Matthew’s depiction of John the Baptist is a good example. The author apparently found it to be embarrassing that Jesus received John’s baptism of repentance (why would Jesus have needed it?). Thus, he has John protest against the baptism and claim that Jesus should instead baptize him (Matthew 3:13–17; this objection is not in Mark or Luke). These verses in Matthew assume that John recognized Jesus as being greater than he, but Matthew later shows John, in prison, sending a message to ask Jesus whether he was “the one who is to come” (Matthew 11:2–6). These passages make it virtually certain that John baptized Jesus and highly probable that John asked Jesus who he was. John’s protest against baptizing Jesus appears to be Matthew’s creation. In keeping these passages while, in effect, arguing against them, Matthew validates the authenticity of the tradition that John baptized Jesus and later enquired about his true identity.

These are only a few examples of tests that may confirm the authenticity of passages in the Gospels. In many cases, however, the criteria do not apply: many passages neither meet nor fail the tests. Grouping passages into categories—probable, improbable, possible but unconfirmed—is a useful exercise but does not go very far toward determining a realistic portrayal of Jesus as a historical figure. More is needed than just the minute study of the Gospels, though that is an essential task.

This is what I mentioned before called textual criticism where Christians allow scholars from outside their worldview to attempt to poke holes at our faith (how about you let a non-Muslim touch or even interpret the Quran). There is nothing here that proves the Gospels were redacted, or even further that historical Jesus preached a message synchronistic with Islam. There are liberal and conservative scholars who have a view about Christianity. But to claim that the Scriptures have been redacted you need to show disparity with the manuscripts, the NT manuscripts are the most plentiful and synchronistic of all of antiquity.

[Habit7]

Now please, present the untampered Islamic Torah, Psalms and Gospel that attests to Islam.

[DFC]

Thread heating up.

Brb i'm gonna go in my bombshelter .

[Habit7]

nothing heating up, same ground we cover before...

[DFC]

Adamb preparing a loong copy and paste from his online jihad manifesto, and then gonna blue text and big font it, without answering your question.

I'm sure its not me alone notice this.

[rocknrolla]

they only allowing that blind buffoon to suck from their soul in the ultimate troll. there are some ppl u have to realize ull never get anywhere with. and noone is ever going to get anywhere with adamb. let him live what he believes.. two things happen in this world with ones life..

they either find truth while theyre alive or they find it when they die. i prefer the former.. but some ppl must wait till the last second before they allow their illusion to be shattered.

he is not here to learn anything. it seems he is here more on a recruitment drive. to show how his deluded powerful faith comes from islam making it the supreme religion. but all i see is brainwashed misconceptions drowned in a phallacy for a dream that will never come true.

[djaggs]

This thread going on rel looonnggg boi....about 2000 yrs...

[nemo]

Though we may not all share the same religious beliefs or be religious at all, this is a very good discussion going here. It forces us to ponder some very profound ideas and questions. At the end of it all (if the discussion ever ends) some of us will continue to believe what we have always believed while some will begin to question the things we believe. Despite whichever side of the fence we stand on, we are forced to provide most importantly to ourselves a reason for our beliefs.

But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect... 1 Peter 3:15

You obviously know on which side I stand. Let me begin by saying that I do not profess to know everything nor am I closed to any other opinion. I believe that God is real. I can think of many everyday personal experiences that prove to me that God exists but none of my testimonies would prove anything those of us who already believe otherwise. The Psalmist says O taste and see that the Lord is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him. Psalms 34:8. I think that each of us needs to search out God for ourselves. I cannot merely tell you that He exists nor can you tell me that He doesn't if I know to myself that I have a personal relationship with him. I do not think that we can ever prove that God exists by scientific means or believe that he does without a reliance on some measure of faith.

"There are enough evidences for God's existence to convince anyone who seriously tries to discover the truth about Him. Faith in God, however, is not blind. It is based on sufficient evidence found both in God's revelations through the Scriptures and through nature".

Nature testifies to God's existence. There is precision and order everywhere that points to intelligent design. The distance of the Moon from the Earth, The size of the earth, The angle of the Earth, The speed of the Earths rotation etc. all these factors working together to sustain life. When we consider the 'miracle' of birth and look at the animals all around instinctively caring for their young, birds building their nests, hibernation, migration how can we not believe in the Bible account of creation and the existence of God.

The Bible, God's holy word also attests to the existence of God, it doesn't attempt to prove that he exists but just assumes that he does from the very start. It reveals God's character, His love, His mercy, His justice, the origin and the eventual destruction of the Earth, the reward of Christians and Sinners alike. I have never come across any other 'book' with such power that has positively transformed the lives of men and women from age to age no matter their circumstances. If we would read the Bible prayerfully and with an attitude of humility we would find the answers we seek.


Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. Matthew 7:7