The Religion Discussion

[rocknrolla]

yeah.. but we cant even create a buggy version like he did. he is still a boss.

why would we want to?
Only a sick, demented, perverse mind could conjure up this

for the same reason we create buggy-ass software like windows, and buggy robots that can barely stand, for the same reason man is on a quest thru science to understanding all the mysteries of man so that they can try to replicate it.

[Daran]

Yeah and He sees you insulting Him and He does respond in unbridled anger as you or I might, but He is slow to anger, giving you more time to repent. However, we all will die and face judgement: rapist, abductor, blasphemer, etc. sins will either be paid for by Jesus on the cross or by themselves in Hell.

Aside from firmly disbelieving in a deity, I have lived my life perhaps more moral than most religious folk.

Will I be punished for all eternity?

[djaggs]

Aside from firmly disbelieving in a deity, I have lived my life perhaps more moral than most religious folk.

Will I be punished for all eternity?

How do you define moral ???

[rocknrolla]

Yeah and He sees you insulting Him and He does respond in unbridled anger as you or I might, but He is slow to anger, giving you more time to repent. However, we all will die and face judgement: rapist, abductor, blasphemer, etc. sins will either be paid for by Jesus on the cross or by themselves in Hell.

Aside from firmly disbelieving in a deity, I have lived my life perhaps more moral than most religious folk.

Will I be punished for all eternity?

good question. because there are indeed atheists who live better among their fellow man than church going christians and others. but i dont think u can be forgiven by God if u dont acknowledge him.

i myself was once an atheist. as i studied that too. and a nihilist. briefly! i started with saying 'if there is a God please give me a sign'. i got the sign.. or what i believed was a sign. but u know how it goes.. that only lasts so long b4 u rationalize and say something like 'it was going to happen anyway'. i went thru that process a number of times, each new sign increasing my faith and being a bigger sign than the one b4. until i thought i had no choice but to believe that there are invisible 'conscious' forces in this world and that because of that.. a God was possible. it was another milestone for faith for me.

[MG Man]

yeah.. but we cant even create a buggy version like he did. he is still a boss.

why would we want to?
Only a sick, demented, perverse mind could conjure up this

for the same reason we create buggy-ass software like windows, and buggy robots that can barely stand, for the same reason man is on a quest thru science to understanding all the mysteries of man so that they can try to replicate it.

so u saying god is making sheit up as he goes along, part by research, part by trial and error, often with epic failure?
Seems plausible

[Dizzy28]

Yeah and He sees you insulting Him and He does respond in unbridled anger as you or I might, but He is slow to anger, giving you more time to repent. However, we all will die and face judgement: rapist, abductor, blasphemer, etc. sins will either be paid for by Jesus on the cross or by themselves in Hell.

Aside from firmly disbelieving in a deity, I have lived my life perhaps more moral than most religious folk.

Will I be punished for all eternity?

Depends. The Abrahamic religions speak of damnation/judgement of life after death. Dharmic religions do not. In dharmic religions there is reincarnation until you achieve "moksha" or liberation.

[Daran]

Aside from firmly disbelieving in a deity, I have lived my life perhaps more moral than most religious folk.

Will I be punished for all eternity?

How do you define moral ???

By simply following these rules which to be frank, is common sense.

- Does my action hurt someone else if I do this? (a few grey areas here, tough love methods to those who need it)
- Does my action hurt me if I do this?
- Is it against the law where I am?

[Daran]

yeah.. but we cant even create a buggy version like he did. he is still a boss.

why would we want to?
Only a sick, demented, perverse mind could conjure up this

for the same reason we create buggy-ass software like windows, and buggy robots that can barely stand, for the same reason man is on a quest thru science to understanding all the mysteries of man so that they can try to replicate it.

so u saying god is making sheit up as he goes along, part by research, part by trial and error, often with epic failure?
Seems plausible

God is only is human man, give him a break

[DFC]

In hinduism, there is the higher aspect of God called Brahman.


What Is Brahman?
by Swami Sivananda

Brahman or the Supreme Self is beyond time and space, causation. He is limitless. He is tranquil. He shines with equal effulgence in all bodies. He cannot be any particular thing. He is Chaitanya or pure consciousness. He is Vastu, Atman or Brahman or the Supreme Self is the hidden treasure. It is the jewel of jewels. It is gem of gems. It is the imperishable, inexhaustible supreme wealth, which no dacoit can rob. It is Chintamani of Chintamanis that will give man whatever he wishes.

Who Himself sees all, Whom no one beholds, Who illumines the intellect, etc., but Whom they cannot illumine-that is Brahman. That is Atman.

The self-shining pure being, Who is the support of this universe, Who is consciousness itself, Who is Bliss Absolute, Who is changeless is Brahman.

A supreme principle exists. It is Atman. It is Para Brahman. It is imperishable, unborn, undecaying and undying. It is ancient. It is one. It is a mass of wisdom and bliss.

Brahman is the biggest ocean of Satchidananda. Brahman is surrounded by an ocean of mind, an ocean of Prana and an ocean of ether and Tanmatras.

That unheard hearer, that unseen seer, that unthought thinker, that unknown knower is Brahman.

That unborn, undecaying, undying, immortal, fearless (Ajam, Ajaram, Amritam, Abhayam) essence is Brahman.

That from which this world has come out, That in which this world exists, That in which it gets dissolved is Brahman.

Atman is eternal (Nitya). It is unchanging (Nirvikara). It is one mass of knowledge (Prajnana Ghana, Chidghana, Vijnanaghana). It is imperishable (Akshara).

Atman or the pure spirit is timeless, spaceless, placeless and endless. It is full of Jnana (Jnana Maya). It is Santa and self-luminous (Svayam Jyoti). It is Jyotirmaya (full of light). All students of Vedanta seek this Atman to get Brahmanubhava. It is called Parama Vastu (supreme thing). It gives immortality.

That in which there is neither East nor West, neither light nor darkness, neither pleasure nor pain, neither hunger nor thirst, neither Harsha nor Soka, neither gain nor loss is Brahman.

Atman is Niravayava (without limbs, without hands and feet). So He is Akarta (Akriya, Nishkriya). How can you attribute agency to Niravayava Atman?

The Atman has no body. It is Atanu, Nirakara. How can there be then Jara (old age) and death for Atman? Atman is Ajara, Amara, Avinasi (undecaying, immortal and indestructible).

The Soul (Atman) is not a product like mind, body or sugar-candy. Eternal intelligence constitutes its very nature. The individual soul is identical with the Highest Self (Brahman).

Atman (Highest Self) is always the witnessing subject in all cognition, because it is infinite and self-luminous. It is not manifested either by itself or by anything else. It is known or revealed through direct perception or immediate intuitional knowledge, Aparokshatvat.

The intellect can conceive of Brahman as Sat-Chit-Ananda. That is the reason why these attributes are ascribed to Him. But Brahman is different from Satchidananda also. This does not mean that Brahman is non-entity or zero, a negative concept or metaphysical abstraction. He is the only Reality or living Truth. He is Being. He is essence.

Mind always runs after pleasure because it is born of Ananda (Brahman). You love a mango because it affords you pleasure. Amongst all things, you love your own Self most. This love of the Self gives the clue to the fact that Ananda or bliss must be the nature of the Self.

That secondless Supreme Being who resides in the chambers of your hearts as Antaryamin or Inner Ruler or controller or Sutradhara or Sakshi (silent witness), Antaratma (inner Self) who has no beginning, middle or end, who is the source for this world, Vedas, body, mind, Indriyas and Pranas, who is All-pervading, who is unchanging, who is the One homogeneous Essence (Ekarasa), who exists in the past, present and future, who is Self-existent Svayambhu, who is Svatantra (independent) and who is self-luminous (Svayam Jyoti) is God or Atman or Brahman or Purusha or Chaitanya or Purushottama.

Atman is different from the knowable. He is beyond the unknowable also. He is incomprehensible. This does not mean that he is a non-entity or void or a negative concept or a metaphysical abstraction. He is a mass of knowledge or pure consciousness. Consciousness is more dense than stone or platinum or gold. He is the only real, living entity, the substratum for everything.

Atman is the immortal substance or essence in man. Atman is the origin of thoughts, desires, reasonings. Atman is spiritual because it is beyond matter and mind. It must be immortal, because it is beyond time, space and causation, it is beginningless, endless and causeless and infinite.

Soul or Supreme Self or Atman or Brahman is that abiding, constantly existing and imperishable entity which is the basis for this world, which is indivisible self-luminous, unchanging and all-pervading, which is the silent witness or Sakshi of the three states viz., waking, dreaming and deep sleep. The knower of this Soul or Atman attains immortality and enters the abode of bliss and nectar.

Brahman is known also by the names Atman or Purusha. Purusha is so-called because of His lying in the body, or because He is full in Himself, or because all that we see is pervaded by Him.

Atman or the Self is the ultimate Reality. It is the ultimate philosophical principle. It is the substratum for everything. It is the only living Truth. It is the Brahman of the Upanishads. It is the support of this world. It is the prop of this body and Prana. It is the Impersonal, Absolute.

Brahman or Atman or the Supreme Self is self-luminous. Brahman cannot be manifested anything else. Brahman manifests everything. The doctrine of self-luminosity is one of the foundational tenets on which the entire edifice of Vedanta is constructed. Atman gives light to the sun, the moon, the stars, the lightning, the fire, the intellect and the senses. By the light of Atman all these shine but they cannot illumine Atman.

Atman alone exists. It appears as the objects which we cognise just as a rope appears as a serpent. Atman puts on the appearance of these phenomenal objects. It shines by itself. It is self-luminous. All the objects shine after them i.e., they borrow their light from the self-effulgent Atman.

Brahman is the soul or Atman of man. He is the soul of the Universe. Brahman alone is the Infinite. There cannot be two infinities. If there are two infinities, there will be fighting among the infinities themselves. One Infinite will be creating something, another Infinite will be destroying something. There can be only one Infinite. This Atman is the one Infinite Brahman. Everything else is its manifestation or expression.

Brahman is unborn, undying, changeless, bodiless, immortal and fearless. He has neither name nor form. He has neither contraction nor expansion, neither beauty nor ugliness. Verily, Brahman is fearless. He who knows Brahman becomes immortal and fearless.

Look within. Within is the fountain of bliss. That is the real life. What is the real 'I'. That is soul. That is Atman. That is Brahman. That is pure consciousness.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

it really is not very important which name u call ur God. just as long as the symbolic reference that is conjured in ur mind when u say it is of ur creator. the supreme being.

I honestly, like this approach. Jus sayn it won't sit well with religious folk.

What are your views on Rastafarianism, Wiccans, Satanist and Scientology?

but that doesn't make any sense.

But turbotusty says the Bible is right and Jesus is God, but then ignores what Jesus says that he is the only way to salvation, by claiming its not important what you call God.

All the religions can't be right at the same time since they contradict each other. If it truly does not matter with God then we can do what ever we like once we are good people. That is more of a humanist/secular ideology and not a religious one. At which point God is irrelevant.

It's either one religion is right, or all are wrong with regards to who or what is God and how or if he even requires us to worship him.

So which is it?

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

yeah.. but we cant even create a buggy version like he did. he is still a boss.

why would we want to?
Only a sick, demented, perverse mind could conjure up this

for the same reason we create buggy-ass software like windows, and buggy robots that can barely stand, for the same reason man is on a quest thru science to understanding all the mysteries of man so that they can try to replicate it.

all of science is not on a quest to recreate the universe.

Also we make buggy stuff cause we are imperfect - we know that. So how can that be the same reason for God?

[rocknrolla]

it really is not very important which name u call ur God. just as long as the symbolic reference that is conjured in ur mind when u say it is of ur creator. the supreme being.

I honestly, like this approach. Jus sayn it won't sit well with religious folk.

What are your views on Rastafarianism, Wiccans, Satanist and Scientology?

but that doesn't make any sense.

But turbotusty says the Bible is right and Jesus is God, but then ignores what Jesus says that he is the only way to salvation, by claiming its not important what you call God.

All the religions can't be right at the same time since they contradict each other. If it truly does not matter with God then we can do what ever we like once we are good people. That is more of a humanist/secular ideology and not a religious one. At which point God is irrelevant.

It's either one religion is right, or all are wrong with regards to who or what is God and how or if he even requires us to worship him.

So which is it?

u are right, being good will make the earth a better place. but there are things which u must do to develop urself both physically and spiritually. and if u believe in the root message.. the eternal consciousness known as the soul in ALL religions, u will know that not only the flesh should be pleased for all it's desires. the body needs the conscious soul or it dies and cant think for itself. the body is the motorcar and the soul is the driver. but we live as tho the body/brain is the driver.

if u do not develop the strength of ur spirit.. and feed only ego desires ur stagnating. im not one to say what consequences might be as a result of that. all these material things were here b4 we were born and will be here after we die. we cannot take them with us. but knowledge, and the story of our lives we can take with us into the next world. the message is one of balance being key to all of existence. holding an equilibrium, or walking the line. the mission is spiritual development for spiritual evolution.

[rocknrolla]

yeah.. but we cant even create a buggy version like he did. he is still a boss.

why would we want to?
Only a sick, demented, perverse mind could conjure up this

for the same reason we create buggy-ass software like windows, and buggy robots that can barely stand, for the same reason man is on a quest thru science to understanding all the mysteries of man so that they can try to replicate it.

all of science is not on a quest to recreate the universe.

Also we make buggy stuff cause we are imperfect - we know that. So how can that be the same reason for God?

believe me.. science is trying to replicate EVERYTHING u see around u.


God gave us free will remember.. and if our goal is to aspire to be like him.. then if those ppl used their free will to create an abonimation in the eyes of God. a God who was very much present at the time. and God decides to call their judgement right then and there. who are we to question his actions?

next thing is ur outlook on death. if there is a human soul, and it is eternal.. then really there is no death and it is just a fearsome illusion weve created in our own minds. the body may rot and of course it must some day because it is of the material realm. the material realm consists of constant changes and transformations in what is called the cycle of life. the spiritual realm is eternal. as i said if we truly believed in our eternal soul.. thered be no reason to mourn. our loved ones have gone on to the eternal realm to face judgement. and may well be on their way to Heaven. isnt that something good? our tears would be for selfish reasons.. that we'd miss them. but we'll meet up with them soon enough and then it will be for as long as we like.

but if u dont believe in such things then ur left with believing that life is hopeless, purposeless and cruel. and hell is created on earth in ur own world.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Aside from firmly disbelieving in a deity, I have lived my life perhaps more moral than most religious folk.

Will I be punished for all eternity?

How do you define moral ???

morals change for societies. It was once morally acceptable to own slaves. Now it's not.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

believe me..

for what reason?

[rocknrolla]

believe me..

for what reason?

if u dont know that's what science is trying to do then u dont know as much about science as u think u do. science attempts to replicate everything. we've been thru this before.

[djaggs]

Aside from firmly disbelieving in a deity, I have lived my life perhaps more moral than most religious folk.

Will I be punished for all eternity?

How do you define moral ???

morals change for societies. It was once morally acceptable to own slaves. Now it's not.

Who decides what is moral and not ?? Should each man decide what he considers moral and live accordingly ?

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Turbotusty you've been using a bunch of unfounded, unsupported blanket statements that don't make very much sense.

Aside from firmly disbelieving in a deity, I have lived my life perhaps more moral than most religious folk.

Will I be punished for all eternity?

How do you define moral ???

morals change for societies. It was once morally acceptable to own slaves. Now it's not.

Who decides what is moral and not ?? Should each man decide what he considers moral and live accordingly ?

that is exactly how the world has been anyway, hasn't it? People decide what is moral and what isn't.

Less than a century ago racial discrimination was not considered immoral in many societies where citizens were very religious.

In the next few decades abortion will no longer be considered immoral by the majority.

Many would argue that the morals laid out in religious texts were put there by people anyway.

[djaggs]

Then what you are saying is that if my morality tells me its ok to kill a child then thats ok? Or if I want to have sex with an animal that should also be ok?

[rocknrolla]

Turbotusty you've been using a bunch of unfounded, unsupported blanket statements that don't make very much sense.

Aside from firmly disbelieving in a deity, I have lived my life perhaps more moral than most religious folk.

Will I be punished for all eternity?

How do you define moral ???

morals change for societies. It was once morally acceptable to own slaves. Now it's not.

Who decides what is moral and not ?? Should each man decide what he considers moral and live accordingly ?

that is exactly how the world has been anyway, hasn't it? People decide what is moral and what isn't.

Less than a century ago racial discrimination was not considered immoral in many societies where citizens were very religious.

In the next few decades abortion will no longer be considered immoral by the majority.

Many would argue that the morals laid out in religious texts were put there by people anyway.

sonar was developed from observing bat and learning how they see in the dark.

planes were invented from watching birds and how they fly and trying to replicate that so man could fly

a camera is a replication of a human eye
a mic functions as ears
science is trying to replicate everything u see around u so they can say.. 'u see we can do it u dont need a God.'

3d games are attempts of replicating whole worlds, and creating environments.

and then there they are with the Hadron collider attempting to replicate the big bang..

i can go on and on with the list but if u cant see it there u probably wont ever see it. everything or almost everything spawned out of technology has been a replication of something found in nature. u think that statement is unfounded?

what is with genetic modification, cloning... and creating living cells? theyll start with a cell, then try to create a multicelled organism and move up the chain. that is the aim. cant u see the progression?

all science's creations are but horribly primitive versions of the original found in nature.. but we will keep trying to improve on them trying to get closer and closer. for now it's metal chasis and electrical circuits. but eventually theyll try making organic circuits.. all in an attempt to replicate creating a human being from the elements of the earth ... just LIKE God did.. and just like is written in the bible. everything that makes us up is blowing in the wind and mixed in with the dirt and mud underfoot. science must appreciate intelligent design. and scientists shouldnt be so conceited.

in the example of the bats above..if u were to view bats as a piece of extremely high technology then ud get the picture. with humans being the highest level of technology on the face of the planet.

everything formed by technology is an extremely primitive version of everything found in nature thus far. thus the Supreme Creator is very right to call it 'inferior magic'

[Habit7]

Aside from firmly disbelieving in a deity, I have lived my life perhaps more moral than most religious folk.
Will I be punished for all eternity?

God is much more exacting than all of us. One sin by Adam plunged this entire world and universe into a fallen state and man became estranged from God. You might find that you might be moral but the Bible says you and I are not. We have all lied, stole, blasphemed, lusted, murdered (by thought if not by deed), coveted...basically broken all of the 10 commandments if not the laws of our own conscience, and we have done it so many times that we are guilty on multiply accounts. The human standard of morality and righteousness that God requires is only found in Jesus. He is the only man to live a sinless life not worthy of eternal punishment. But in submission to the Father, He was the propitiation as He bore the sins of those who would believe in Him and suffered their eternal punishment on the cross because He is eternally worthy. Three days later He rose again to demonstrate that we must die to our sin in repentance towards God and rise in new life in Him through faith of Jesus' righteousness being placed on our own individual account. And the truth that this transaction has occurred in your life is that there is daily progression in sanctification and love of God and the things of God.

Your standard of morality is not moral enough, the only morality God accepts, is found in the Son.

[Daran]

turbo your view of science is pretty skewed, have you done anything past CXC (srs)?

Science's goals are to find real explanations for the world around us.

With regards to morality, i believe that while it can be very subjective and influenced by culturr, we still have an inearth or instinctive knowledge of what is right and wrong.

Slavery for instance was considered immoral by many when it existed, however via the use of religion and psudeo science it was justified.

I eat a lit of meat, but i dont consider the killing of animals for food to be immoral, however in future, when artificial lab grpwn meat is mass market, people will consider my meat eating to be immoral.

[AdamB]

it really is not very important which name u call ur God. just as long as the symbolic reference that is conjured in ur mind when u say it is of ur creator. the supreme being.

I honestly, like this approach. Jus sayn it won't sit well with religious folk.

What are your views on Rastafarianism, Wiccans, Satanist and Scientology?

but that doesn't make any sense.

But turbotusty says the Bible is right and Jesus is God, but then ignores what Jesus says that he is the only way to salvation, by claiming its not important what you call God.

All the religions can't be right at the same time since they contradict each other. If it truly does not matter with God then we can do what ever we like once we are good people. That is more of a humanist/secular ideology and not a religious one. At which point God is irrelevant.

It's either one religion is right, or all are wrong with regards to who or what is God and how or if he even requires us to worship him.

So which is it?

Why ISLAM of course!!

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ but what makes you right and Habit7 wrong?

[Habit7]

this should be fun .....

[rocknrolla]

turbo your view of science is pretty skewed, have you done anything past CXC (srs)?

Science's goals are to find real explanations for the world around us.

With regards to morality, i believe that while it can be very subjective and influenced by culturr, we still have an inearth or instinctive knowledge of what is right and wrong.

Slavery for instance was considered immoral by many when it existed, however via the use of religion and psudeo science it was justified.

I eat a lit of meat, but i dont consider the killing of animals for food to be immoral, however in future, when artificial lab grpwn meat is mass market, people will consider my meat eating to be immoral.

that may be so.. but we are, at the very least, inadvertently edging our way up to creation of a human being thru science, while we are explaining. think about it.. science can accomplish no feath greater than the cooking up of a human being in a pot of salts and water.

[Dizzy28]

turbo your view of science is pretty skewed, have you done anything past CXC (srs)?

Science's goals are to find real explanations for the world around us.

With regards to morality, i believe that while it can be very subjective and influenced by culturr, we still have an inearth or instinctive knowledge of what is right and wrong.

Slavery for instance was considered immoral by many when it existed, however via the use of religion and psudeo science it was justified.

I eat a lit of meat, but i dont consider the killing of animals for food to be immoral, however in future, when artificial lab grpwn meat is mass market, people will consider my meat eating to be immoral.

that may be so.. but we are, at the very least, inadvertently edging our way up to creation of a human being thru science, while we are explaining. think about it.. science can accomplish no feath greater than the cooking up of a human being in a pot of salts and water.

Wish Science can create the feat of proper spelling for all!!

[rocknrolla]

turbo your view of science is pretty skewed, have you done anything past CXC (srs)?

Science's goals are to find real explanations for the world around us.

With regards to morality, i believe that while it can be very subjective and influenced by culturr, we still have an inearth or instinctive knowledge of what is right and wrong.

Slavery for instance was considered immoral by many when it existed, however via the use of religion and psudeo science it was justified.

I eat a lit of meat, but i dont consider the killing of animals for food to be immoral, however in future, when artificial lab grpwn meat is mass market, people will consider my meat eating to be immoral.

that may be so.. but we are, at the very least, inadvertently edging our way up to creation of a human being thru science, while we are explaining. think about it.. science can accomplish no feath greater than the cooking up of a human being in a pot of salts and water.

Wisch psy-ense kan kreeyate the feat of propper spelling for all!!

fix0red!

[AdamB]

turbo your view of science is pretty skewed, have you done anything past CXC (srs)?

Science's goals are to find real explanations for the world around us.

With regards to morality, i believe that while it can be very subjective and influenced by culturr, we still have an inearth or instinctive knowledge of what is right and wrong.

Slavery for instance was considered immoral by many when it existed, however via the use of religion and psudeo science it was justified.

I eat a lit of meat, but i dont consider the killing of animals for food to be immoral, however in future, when artificial lab grpwn meat is mass market, people will consider my meat eating to be immoral.

So slavery does not still exist? Has it not "evolved"?

If in the future ppl will be more like you, why would the killing of animals be considered immoral? Moral and immoral may be "a thing of the past", they (Veg/meat) may just be considered as choices.

Ppl will be eating more "lab rats", so there will be an upset / imbalance in the food chain, leading to other undesirable effects that will adversely affect the environment. Imagine how many cattle are bred annually right now for human consumption, yet they are still able to continue to produce the required quantities!

[AdamB]

turbo your view of science is pretty skewed, have you done anything past CXC (srs)?

Science's goals are to find real explanations for the world around us.

With regards to morality, i believe that while it can be very subjective and influenced by culturr, we still have an inearth or instinctive knowledge of what is right and wrong.

Slavery for instance was considered immoral by many when it existed, however via the use of religion and psudeo science it was justified.

I eat a lit of meat, but i dont consider the killing of animals for food to be immoral, however in future, when artificial lab grpwn meat is mass market, people will consider my meat eating to be immoral.

that may be so.. but we are, at the very least, inadvertently edging our way up to creation of a human being thru science, while we are explaining. think about it.. science can accomplish no feath greater than the cooking up of a human being in a pot of salts and water.

Quran Surah Hajj Ch22 Verse 73-74:
73. "O mankind! A similitude has been coined, so listen to it (carefully): Verily those on whom you call besides Allah, cannot create (even) a fly, even though they combine together for the purpose. And if the fly snatches away a thing from them, they will have no power to release it from the fly. So weak are (both) the seeker and the sought."
74. "They have not estimated Allah HIS Rightful Estimate. Verily, Allah is All-Strong, All-Mighty."