The Religion Discussion

[bluefete]

turbotusty

So, honestly, why do you think we need a God? What benefit does he serve us?

Daran: Oh Great One!!

Is this life all there is? You are born, ketch your nennen for a few years, then die like a dog and either burn or rot and that is it?

Yes, it might be so.

But what I prefer to describe it as experiencing all the wonder in the universe, trying to learn and develop things for future generations and living and enjoying your one and only life to the fullest.

Religion (generally) would have you believe, your life is tainted that you must spend an eternity worshiping and devoting your one and only life to an imaginary figure, who if displeased will punish you for eternity. Really, is that all there is to life?

You live life to enjoy an after life that to me seems boring as hell.

Truer truthisms were never more ironically written.

Let's hope you do not have to die to find out.

[rocknrolla]

turbotusty

So, honestly, why do you think we need a God? What benefit does he serve us?

Daran: Oh Great One!!

Is this life all there is? You are born, ketch your nennen for a few years, then die like a dog and either burn or rot and that is it?

Yes, it might be so.

But what I prefer to describe it as experiencing all the wonder in the universe, trying to learn and develop things for future generations and living and enjoying your one and only life to the fullest.

Religion (generally) would have you believe, your life is tainted that you must spend an eternity worshiping and devoting your one and only life to an imaginary figure, who if displeased will punish you for eternity. Really, is that all there is to life?

You live life to enjoy an after life that to me seems boring as hell.

well in the after life u have more freedom.. u could jump off cliff and land 1000feet down.. *beff* and stand up and walk away without the slightest feeling of pain, u could fly and much more. maybe God dont want no ignorant fools in his paradise. u hadda show u know how to live with Class in his community. simple.

[Daran]

all that talk real nice and i see u bow out admitting defeat but leaving ur shoes to go in the hills and train. yes science may get really close.. and here's what.. ill give them the benefit of the doubt just for arguement sake that they 'improve' as ur banking on. but boss.. how they going to replicate a human soul. only the soulmaker could do that. have no machine helping u there boss.. the machines cant even detect the soul. yet.. it is there. a conscious lifeforce which can stand independent of the body. if u dont believe that.. just remember.. i told u. lol

we cant create energy.. nor destroy it.. so u know.. whoever created energy.. is a boss. he say:

"with all the ting yuh ting and feel yuh could do.. u see my energy i make.. doh touch that, i make it so u cah touch that. destroy everything else but that u barred from destroying energy with your highest might."

how much years u want to create energy? ill give u 5000.. meh.. ill give u 50000 years.. if u need more just ask.

I get the point you're trying to make.

But why does everything need a creator? and why would a creator create something as ridiculous as the thousands of religions that exist?

As for energy, it exist in every thing. Matter is energy, so you're basically asking if science can create something out of nothing.....that I can't say, seems impossible. But it doesn't lend credence to having a creator.

But it does indeed beg the age old and probably unanswerable question or why does the universe exist?

[bluefete]

After the flood, human life expectancy dramatically declined.

What flood? the one last week in port of spain?

The one 8,000 years ago that you do not believe happened or was a localized flood according to Islam.

[bluefete]

all that talk real nice and i see u bow out admitting defeat but leaving ur shoes to go in the hills and train. yes science may get really close.. and here's what.. ill give them the benefit of the doubt just for arguement sake that they 'improve' as ur banking on. but boss.. how they going to replicate a human soul. only the soulmaker could do that. have no machine helping u there boss.. the machines cant even detect the soul. yet.. it is there. a conscious lifeforce which can stand independent of the body. if u dont believe that.. just remember.. i told u. lol

we cant create energy.. nor destroy it.. so u know.. whoever created energy.. is a boss. he say:

"with all the ting yuh ting and feel yuh could do.. u see my energy i make.. doh touch that, i make it so u cah touch that. destroy everything else but that u barred from destroying energy with your highest might."

how much years u want to create energy? ill give u 5000.. meh.. ill give u 50000 years.. if u need more just ask.

I get the point you're trying to make.

But why does everything need a creator? and why would a creator create something as ridiculous as the thousands of religions that exist?

As for energy, it exist in every thing. Matter is energy, so you're basically asking if science can create something out of nothing.....that I can't say, seems impossible. But it doesn't lend credence to having a creator.

But it does indeed beg the age old and probably unanswerable question or why does the universe exist?

So did energy just come into being by itself or was it created?

Do computers make themselves? Do cars make themselves? Do robots procreate?

Everything in our world, that is not of the natural world, was created by humans!!

But humans just created themselves.

WOW!!!

[rocknrolla]

all that talk real nice and i see u bow out admitting defeat but leaving ur shoes to go in the hills and train. yes science may get really close.. and here's what.. ill give them the benefit of the doubt just for arguement sake that they 'improve' as ur banking on. but boss.. how they going to replicate a human soul. only the soulmaker could do that. have no machine helping u there boss.. the machines cant even detect the soul. yet.. it is there. a conscious lifeforce which can stand independent of the body. if u dont believe that.. just remember.. i told u. lol

we cant create energy.. nor destroy it.. so u know.. whoever created energy.. is a boss. he say:

"with all the ting yuh ting and feel yuh could do.. u see my energy i make.. doh touch that, i make it so u cah touch that. destroy everything else but that u barred from destroying energy with your highest might."

how much years u want to create energy? ill give u 5000.. meh.. ill give u 50000 years.. if u need more just ask.

I get the point you're trying to make.

But why does everything need a creator? and why would a creator create something as ridiculous as the thousands of religions that exist?

As for energy, it exist in every thing. Matter is energy, so you're basically asking if science can create something out of nothing.....that I can't say, seems impossible. But it doesn't lend credence to having a creator.

But it does indeed beg the age old and probably unanswerable question or why does the universe exist?

well the issue is science and logic claiming dominance over creativity and fantasy. by logic it takes something to make something.. and something cannot create something better than itself.. those are 'givens'. only a higher intelligence could then create a lower intelligence... US. and we can create lower intelligence.. artificial intelligence. we wont ever create consiciousness itself.. so in this logical argument.. a higher intelligence must be the father of this lower lifeform.. or is man the most supreme being in all the known and unknown universes?

to answer your question.. i would say the universe exists because this is the method God chose to construct beings from his own essence who could one day become Gods like him themselves. it's a God Factory! while we growing so is God.. so we'll never catch up.. but we can reach a level he once was eons ago and build upon that. evolution, learning and growth is an endless process.

[rocknrolla]

all that talk real nice and i see u bow out admitting defeat but leaving ur shoes to go in the hills and train. yes science may get really close.. and here's what.. ill give them the benefit of the doubt just for arguement sake that they 'improve' as ur banking on. but boss.. how they going to replicate a human soul. only the soulmaker could do that. have no machine helping u there boss.. the machines cant even detect the soul. yet.. it is there. a conscious lifeforce which can stand independent of the body. if u dont believe that.. just remember.. i told u. lol

we cant create energy.. nor destroy it.. so u know.. whoever created energy.. is a boss. he say:

"with all the ting yuh ting and feel yuh could do.. u see my energy i make.. doh touch that, i make it so u cah touch that. destroy everything else but that u barred from destroying energy with your highest might."

how much years u want to create energy? ill give u 5000.. meh.. ill give u 50000 years.. if u need more just ask.

I get the point you're trying to make.

But why does everything need a creator? and why would a creator create something as ridiculous as the thousands of religions that exist?

As for energy, it exist in every thing. Matter is energy, so you're basically asking if science can create something out of nothing.....that I can't say, seems impossible. But it doesn't lend credence to having a creator.

But it does indeed beg the age old and probably unanswerable question or why does the universe exist?

So did energy just come into being by itself or was it created?

Do computers make themselves? Do cars make themselves? Do robots procreate?

Everything in our world, that is not of the natural world, was created by humans!!

But humans just created themselves.

WOW!!!

yes they miss the flawed logic in their own logic. it is classic science for u.. relying heavily on chaos to make logic work.. but pretending that chaos shouldnt exist.. ying yang, logic creativity... balance! the fantasy world is as much credible as this logical reality as they would call it.

[MG Man]

next time you talk to him, tell him I said he's a dickwad...............wait............he already knows..........
which begs the question: what thefuck is the deal with prayer anyway? Ent he know we in a bad situation and need his help? we hadda effin beg too? and then he may or may not take we on?
effin dickwad

why u dont cuss him urself.. i mean we talking about a facebook identity here. but seems u taking it seriously. so on that note.. let God know how u really feel. cuss him way to rass why he eh helpin yuh etc etc. if u hide ur true feelings is a deception to God. so be truthful. let it out man. i have. i repent after cuz i love the Lord but i am just a man and at one point a very frustrated man hitting rock bottom and trying my best to follow the word even in that time. nuff temptation.. resisted.. till ithings still bad i had to cuss him wey yeah. aint no shame in that bro. we cant move a mountain by ourselves with physical strength.

and when i say i repent, i dont mean i apologize eh.. cuz i meant every word i said at the time in my prayer to him. but i didnt give up on him is what i mean. i say my peace and i kept on serving the Lord.

fella your comprehension skills really lacking bad bad bad

[rocknrolla]

next time you talk to him, tell him I said he's a dickwad...............wait............he already knows..........
which begs the question: what thefuck is the deal with prayer anyway? Ent he know we in a bad situation and need his help? we hadda effin beg too? and then he may or may not take we on?
effin dickwad

why u dont cuss him urself.. i mean we talking about a facebook identity here. but seems u taking it seriously. so on that note.. let God know how u really feel. cuss him way to rass why he eh helpin yuh etc etc. if u hide ur true feelings is a deception to God. so be truthful. let it out man. i have. i repent after cuz i love the Lord but i am just a man and at one point a very frustrated man hitting rock bottom and trying my best to follow the word even in that time. nuff temptation.. resisted.. till ithings still bad i had to cuss him wey yeah. aint no shame in that bro. we cant move a mountain by ourselves with physical strength.

and when i say i repent, i dont mean i apologize eh.. cuz i meant every word i said at the time in my prayer to him. but i didnt give up on him is what i mean. i say my peace and i kept on serving the Lord.

fella your comprehension skills really lacking bad bad bad

well what i could tell u.. find more fault in me. make a big long list. i hope u flawless.

scientific atheist joins religious discussion
gets blown out by spiritual adept
resorts to lowballing and pulldown tactics. lol

[DFC]

Self praise is no praise turbotusty.

I seriously think you on some kinda hallucinogenic drug.

But religion does that to people.


"Deaf and Blind and dumb and born to follow"

[rocknrolla]

no self praise anywhere.. where i self praise.?

look my hallucinogenic drugs here




and here



and here

[DFC]

what about these chakras thing?

[bluefete]

next time you talk to him, tell him I said he's a dickwad...............wait............he already knows..........
which begs the question: what thefuck is the deal with prayer anyway? Ent he know we in a bad situation and need his help? we hadda effin beg too? and then he may or may not take we on?
effin dickwad

The amount of cuss you cuss God in this thread.

But God still loves you ( but grieves at your blasphemy).

There is hope for you up to your last breath (just like the thief on the cross alongside Jesus).

After that - well .......

[AdamB]

Self praise is no praise turbotusty.

I seriously think you on some kinda hallucinogenic drug.

But religion does that to people.


"Deaf and Blind and dumb and born to follow"

Not all religion....just pentecostal christian!!

"noting or pertaining to any of various Christian groups, usually fundamentalist, that emphasize the activity of the holy spirit, stress holiness of living, and express their religious feelings uninhibitedly, as by speaking in tongues."

Sounds like tusty?

[megadoc1]

Self praise is no praise turbotusty.

I seriously think you on some kinda hallucinogenic drug.

But religion does that to people.


"Deaf and Blind and dumb and born to follow"

Not all religion....just pentecostal christian!!

"noting or pertaining to any of various Christian groups, usually fundamentalist, that emphasize the activity of the holy spirit, stress holiness of living, and express their religious feelings uninhibitedly, as by speaking in tongues."

Sounds like tusty?

yuh know, anyone will rather put up with the pentecostal speaking in tongues than to deal with a Muslim speaking in tongues (Allahu Akbar) with a bomb strap across his chest
and you say not all religion?

[badandy]

runs in the kitchen and grabs a bag of popcorn...and put on a/c...things getting hot in here....

[AdamB]

Touched a sore spot there Mega?

All you "plenti-cuss-to-all" do is ramble, rant, wave, sing and shout with the intention of woe-shipping a man. You have no firm ground on which to stand upon.

The day when you meet your "lord", that day you will find out who HE really is! WOE to you that day!!

[megadoc1]

Touched a sore spot there Mega?

All you "plenti-cuss-to-all" do is ramble, rant, wave, sing and shout with the intention of woe-shipping a man. You have no firm ground on which to stand upon.

The day when you meet your "lord", that day you will find out who HE really is! WOE to you that day!!

sore spot? no dan that's a sweet spot my dear
the only dangers those who you mentioned above pose to humanity are conviction,the urge to repent and some physical healings ...surely we can't say the same for those from your camp who are only bent on destroying lives no need for me to give examples

The day when you meet your "lord", that day you will find out who HE really is! I hope you made the right choice

[Kasey]

the more turbotusty says, my opinion of his/her IQ level drops.

Points to ponder:
Religious people ask "who created everything"? Atheists say everything just happened. Religious people say "God created everything".
So then atheists ask "who created God"?
Religious people say, "God doesnt have a creator, he doesnt need one."
Atheists then say,....."well then......so does Outer Space......it doesnt need one....... so God doesnt exist"
Religious people say, "but something must have created the universe"
Atheists say, "well okay, then something must have created God"

The point is, just like a religious person attributes limitless qualities to God, the scientific person attributes limitless qualities to the universe. It always was, and always will be.

What is the purpose? The same purpose God exists for.

[rocknrolla]

so im stupid because i believe in God? a strong argument, but i posit earlier that the laws of creation and uncreation work differently for a God than we can understand. which is why we cant destroy energy, we dont understand how it was created because the method is beyond human explanation.

learning is a process of breaking down and rebuilding. when the object that is broken down(destroyed) can be rebuilt back to full working condition, that's when we can say we understand it.

yes someone may have also made God but that should not be our concern just yet since we having trouble finding the one who made us. u understand? i bring back the primary school child analogy. a standard 2 student still having trouble with his times tables insists the teacher should teach him how to build a light speed travel space ship. not only is that information out of the teacher's league.. but the child has no chance absorbing and handling all the information and mathematical calculations that would be required to complete said spaceship. the child needs to focus on learning everything the teacher can teach and then move on to a teacher who knows more and work his way up.

and it is no different. my point is. humans have not stopped evolving. we have been evolving and are evolving right now.. spiritually.

we not growing fur or gaining glow in the dark capabilities.. but our brains are evolving towards 'realizing' the spiritual nature of ourselves. science and all the things we learn from it will quicker prove God exists than disprove it.

i dont posit that nobody made our God. i am not sure 'made' is even the word. what word can be used.. do we even have a word in any language that can be used to describe the process that awoken the vast consciousness i refer to as God?

God may have spawned from a race of Gods, or he may have a God himself, who also has a God. but i don't think that is our business. our business is right home with our family. not in other ppl backyard. we have our own journey to make and common sense logic always leads to an intelligent designer.

i am just giving him the marvel he justly deserves. just as we marvel at stars on the stage and cheer them on for their great artwork or musical production. this creation is marvellous. and i give jack his jacket.. that is all.

[djaggs]

What i find interesting is that on the discussion of morality, oyu just make a statement that men will decide what moral and cite abolishment of slavery as an example. You fail to realise that the abolishment of slavery started in Europe when an Englishman by the name of William Wilberforce, a devout Christian man, under the conviction of the bible dedicated his life to seeing that slavery will be abolished. He took 20 years to get the bill passed that he introduced to parliament.

"From 1784 to 1786, what he later called his "Great Change" would forever reshape his life's work. It began innocently enough when he invited his friend, Cambridge professor Isaac Milner, to accompany him on a journey to France. Milner was a brilliant scientist who eventually became vice chancellor of Cambridge. (That's similar to a university president in the U.S.) As they conversed during the trip, Wilberforce was surprised to hear Milner speak favorably of biblical faith. Wilberforce was a skeptic and wanted nothing to do with ardent believers to whom he had been exposed in his youth.
During their travels, Milner and Wilberforce spent long hours discussing faith and the Bible. His doubts receded as Milner answered his objections. Initial intellectual assent to Christian faith morphed into deeper conviction and a personal relationship with God.{7}

Back in England, he reluctantly consulted John Newton, slave trader turned pastor and writer of the well-known hymn, "Amazing Grace." Newton had been Wilberforce's minister for a time during his youth, before his spiritual interest waned. Wilberforce wrote that after his meeting with Newton, "My mind was in a calm, tranquil state, more humbled, looking more devoutly up to God."{8} Newton encouraged Wilberforce that God had raised him up "for the good of the nation."{9}

In time, Wilberforce grew to consider "the suppression of the slave trade" part of his God-given destiny.{10} At first he thought abolition would come quickly, but he guessed incorrectly, as we will see."

The abolition of slavery came about through the conviction of a Christian parliamantarian.

Lets look at abolition in America.......The American President Abraham Lincoln, frequently held the bible in his hand when making public addresses. He believed as well that slavery was contrary to the teaching of the bible. In fact read the following declaration signed by him which gives an example of his beliefs:



Proclamation Appointing a National Fast Day
Washington, D.C.
March 30, 1863
Senator James Harlan of Iowa, whose daughter later married President Lincoln's son Robert, introduced this Resolution in the Senate on March 2, 1863. The Resolution asked President Lincoln to proclaim a national day of prayer and fasting. The Resolution was adopted on March 3, and signed by Lincoln on March 30, one month before the fast day was observed.



By the President of the United States of America.

A Proclamation.

Whereas, the Senate of the United States, devoutly recognizing the Supreme Authority and just Government of Almighty God, in all the affairs of men and of nations, has, by a resolution, requested the President to designate and set apart a day for National prayer and humiliation.

And whereas it is the duty of nations as well as of men, to own their dependence upon the overruling power of God, to confess their sins and transgressions, in humble sorrow, yet with assured hope that genuine repentance will lead to mercy and pardon; and to recognize the sublime truth, announced in the Holy Scriptures and proven by all history, that those nations only are blessed whose God is the Lord.

And, insomuch as we know that, by His divine law, nations like individuals are subjected to punishments and chastisements in this world, may we not justly fear that the awful calamity of civil war, which now desolates the land, may be but a punishment, inflicted upon us, for our presumptuous sins, to the needful end of our national reformation as a whole People? We have been the recipients of the choicest bounties of Heaven. We have been preserved, these many years, in peace and prosperity. We have grown in numbers, wealth and power, as no other nation has ever grown. But we have forgotten God. We have forgotten the gracious hand which preserved us in peace, and multiplied and enriched and strengthened us; and we have vainly imagined, in the deceitfulness of our hearts, that all these blessings were produced by some superior wisdom and virtue of our own. Intoxicated with unbroken success, we have become too self-sufficient to feel the necessity of redeeming and preserving grace, too proud to pray to the God that made us!

It behooves us then, to humble ourselves before the offended Power, to confess our national sins, and to pray for clemency and forgiveness.

Now, therefore, in compliance with the request, and fully concurring in the views of the Senate, I do, by this my proclamation, designate and set apart Thursday, the 30th. day of April, 1863, as a day of national humiliation, fasting and prayer. And I do hereby request all the People to abstain, on that day, from their ordinary secular pursuits, and to unite, at their several places of public worship and their respective homes, in keeping the day holy to the Lord, and devoted to the humble discharge of the religious duties proper to that solemn occasion.

All this being done, in sincerity and truth, let us then rest humbly in the hope authorized by the Divine teachings, that the united cry of the Nation will be heard on high, and answered with blessings, no less than the pardon of our national sins, and the restoration of our now divided and suffering Country, to its former happy condition of unity and peace.

In witness whereof, I have hereunto set my hand and caused the seal of the United States to be affixed.

Done at the City of Washington, this thirtieth day of March, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty-three, and of the Independence of the United States the eighty seventh.

By the President: Abraham Lincoln

[djaggs]

It is also interesting to note that slavery still exists in the world today. The only places it still exists is in countries in the middle east where the gospel has not been allowed to influence the society. In those countries slavery is still socially acceptable.

http://www.meforum.org/189/slavery-in-the-middle-east

[Kasey]

Ok turbo, lets see how this goes and then we'll see what you're made of. You continue to make blanket, baseless statements that ONLY seem to be your (and possibly very few others')opinion. You continue to use condescending phrases like "you will not understand", "maybe you're not ready", I know", I am learned", etc.

I am goin to respond to some of your own points in the following excerpt, and I will really like you to respond to EACH them one by one (if you have the time). I will number each one, so that you could compile a list, and answer each one, in numerical order. DO NOT answer the ones that are NOT numbered.
See comments in blue:

so im stupid because i believe in God? I never said you were stupid. I just said it seems that MY OPINION of your IQ level is lowering (suppose I had a very high opinion of you and now its just normal?) a strong argument, but i posit earlier that the laws of creation and uncreation work differently for a God than we can understand(1) Is this your opinion, or someone taught you this?. which is why we cant destroy energy, we dont understand how it was created because the method is beyond human explanation (2) Dont you know that man's knowledge of the universe is growing and some day man just may figure out where everything came from? Just saying. Its only beyond human explanation for now. You speak as if Man's learnings of the Universe has halted.

learning is a process of breaking down and rebuilding. when the object that is broken down(destroyed) can be rebuilt back to full working condition, that's when we can say we understand it. (3)MANY (not all) objects can be understood WITHOUT destroying it my friend. You dont know this?

yes someone may have also made God but that should not be our concern just yet (4) When then? And if it should not be our concern, why are we discussing it? since we having trouble finding the one who made us We dont have trouble my friend, some people say Adam and Eve, some people say we evolved. Where's the trouble? We just havent understood yet, but someday we may.. u understand? i bring back the primary school child analogy. a standard 2 student still having trouble with his times tables insists the teacher should teach him how to build a light speed travel space ship. not only is that information out of the teacher's league.. but the child has no chance absorbing and handling all the information and mathematical calculations that would be required to complete said spaceship. the child needs to focus on learning everything the teacher can teach and then move on to a teacher who knows more and work his way up.

and it is no different. my point is. humans have not stopped evolving. This is contradicting your point abovewe have been evolving and are evolving right now.. spiritually (5) Says who?.

we not growing fur or gaining glow in the dark capabilities.. but our brains are evolving towards 'realizing' the spiritual nature of ourselves (6) Again..........Says who?.
. science and all the things we learn from it will quicker prove God exists than disprove it (7) Again..........Says who?.
i dont posit that nobody made our God. i am not sure 'made' is even the word. what word can be used.. do we even have a word in any language that can be used to describe the process that awoken the vast consciousness i refer to as God?YES, "IMAGINATION"

God may have spawned from a race of Gods, or he may have a God himself, who also has a God. but i don't think that is our business(8) IS THIS YOUR OPINION?. our business is right home with our family. not in other ppl backyard. we have our own journey to make and common sense logic always leads to an intelligent designer (9) Which common logic? Yours? If we were to go with your logic and say it leads to an intelligent designer, then who designed God?.

i am just giving him the marvel he justly deserves (10) How can marvel at something that doesnt exist?. just as we marvel at stars on the stage and cheer them on for their great artwork or musical production. this creation is marvellous. and i give jack his jacket.. that is all.We marvel at stars because they physically interact with us and give us visual and musical pleasure ....... directly. This thing you refer to as God does not do this, hence the reason his existence CANNOT be proven..........yet

[rocknrolla]

if we are not careful it will come right back to ther rest of the world. but claiming slavery exists today in the middleeast alone is a bit short sighted and maybe even prejudice. slavery still exists today.. period. not as how it used to be.. understand..

knowledge is what makes a man unfit to be a slave. this is why slaves were denied knowledge and schooling. if they didnt understand the system they were brought into.. the longer they take to figure out why they are slaves is the longer the slavemaster gets to take advantage of them.

we still in a system of slavery.. it's more technical, thus u have to achieve a higher level of intellect and understanding to outgrow it than say the 1800s. there are laws etc in place to guard against certain acts of slavery. but the fact remains.. this system was created out of a root cause of slavery.. and we attempt to cover up the slavery part with legislations of different types. but slavery and forceful obedience is at the core for implementation. u didnt really get a choice in the matter of how u live today. and it would seem, u still dont have the choice to change it. there is no option.

but like i said, that same legislation could end up being used against u and have u agreeing to slavery.. returning to the full slavery of the 1800s.. no choice.. no vote.. obey.. or die!

[djaggs]

In our western civilization, all our laws are based on definitions of right and wrong as given in the Bible....biblical truths fomred the basis of law. e.g. Thou shalt not kill ...meant murder was wrong and punishable, thou shalt not steal...meant it was wrong to steal and the act would be punishable by law. In old English law, adultery was aslo a crime punishable under law.

Your sense of morality has its source in the bible and you do not even know this because truths from the bible has so infiltrated our social thinking. In pre biblical Europe, pagan men and women engaged in practices contrary to biblical standards or morality such as, ritual murder, cannibalism, incest, sexual immoralty etc. With the conversion of Europe to Christianity, laws eventually were enforced to produce order in society, but this order had to have a moral direction, what was wrong and what was right, this is why Christianity brought with it the moral order that set Europe on the part to great scientific achievements. Isaac Newton, the father of modern Physics, was a devout Christian man who spent more time studying the bible than science.

[djaggs]

The point i am making is that morality does not exist on its own. Our concept of morality came from somewhere. The bible has become part of the culture of the western world. In the east it hasnt, there is a difference in culture, this is the reason why slavery still exists and is socially acceptable there. The decision to change came from men moved by sense of moral duty in their hearts that came about as a result of their belief in the word of God, the Bible.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

It is also interesting to note that slavery still exists in the world today. The only places it still exists is in countries in the middle east where the gospel has not been allowed to influence the society. In those countries slavery is still socially acceptable.

http://www.meforum.org/189/slavery-in-the-middle-east

What i find interesting is that on the discussion of morality, oyu just make a statement that men will decide what moral and cite abolishment of slavery as an example. You fail to realise that the abolishment of slavery started in Europe when an Englishman by the name of William Wilberforce, a devout Christian man, under the conviction of the bible dedicated his life to seeing that slavery will be abolished. He took 20 years to get the bill passed that he introduced to parliament.

what about the 1700 years before that where slavery was practiced by Christians and others?
someone suddenly had an epiphany 1700 years after Christ?

Also there are societies where Christianity is not practices but have abolished slavery such as Japan.

I don't think its valid to claim Christianity was the reason for stopping slavery.

[djaggs]

All reformation of the Church came about as men got..."epiphanies" we call it revelation. It was how the reformation of the Church started. The church also took a stand against slavery. The church did not engage in slavery, perhaps it did not act. But eventually it did. Slavery was never really practiced in Japan, there was a system of indentured servitude. It was socially acceptable, there was no need for abolisment. The leader of the civil rights movement in the US was a Pastor who identified strongly with biblical morality, Martin Luther King, he was responsible for movement that made it possible for a black man to president of the US today.

I can also write a long history here about the crusades explaining why it came about, it was politically motivated because Europe was invaded by the muslim moors. Spain was occupied. It was their attempt to re establish control of the biblical lands from the invaders. Mind you, Europe was the victim of aggression, they were invaded by foreigners.

[rocknrolla]

lol at ur iq test.

Ok turbo, lets see how this goes and then we'll see what you're made of. You continue to make blanket, baseless statements that ONLY seem to be your (and possibly very few others')opinion. You continue to use condescending phrases like "you will not understand", "maybe you're not ready", I know", I am learned", etc.

I am goin to respond to some of your own points in the following excerpt, and I will really like you to respond to EACH them one by one (if you have the time). I will number each one, so that you could compile a list, and answer each one, in numerical order. DO NOT answer the ones that are NOT numbered.
See comments in blue:

so im stupid because i believe in God? I never said you were stupid. I just said it seems that MY OPINION of your IQ level is lowering (suppose I had a very high opinion of you and now its just normal?) a strong argument, but i posit earlier that the laws of creation and uncreation work differently for a God than we can understand(1) Is this your opinion, or someone taught you this?.

it's an opinion taught by many philosophical scholars which i learned from reading book on these matters.. and happen to still agree with it. not because it is absolutely correct.. but because the logic thought progression points to it as the smartest choice to take.. IF there is a God, that very minor possibility in the eyes of many, then it is probably the smartest thing not to try and offend him. testing this i claimed to have learned my lesson. offend God and be unsecured as a man an island. trust God and all ur troubles be given to him as he said.. friends look out for friends.

which is why we cant destroy energy, we dont understand how it was created because the method is beyond human explanation (2) Dont you know that man's knowledge of the universe is growing and some day man just may figure out where everything came from? Just saying. Its only beyond human explanation for now. You speak as if Man's learnings of the Universe has halted.

yes man's knowledge is learning.. but u cannot claim to be speaking for the whole of one man.. nor even animal in this creation. because we are created from both creative and logic concepts.. science is only logical. that's why i say science u can speak for only. thus even tho MAN may discover his soul and come to realization.. science and scientific machines will not. only after it is discovered and proven by some means other than just scientific will science be able to merge it's knowledge with that of the spiritual. the spiritual is beyong both logic and creativity alone. u need them both to discover spirit. ying and yang create completeness.

learning is a process of breaking down and rebuilding. when the object that is broken down(destroyed) can be rebuilt back to full working condition, that's when we can say we understand it. (3)MANY (not all) objects can be understood WITHOUT destroying it my friend. You dont know this?

if ur speaking about learning from a book.. perception has defeated u.
first off.. the first man to discover the knowledge had to break down what he found and successfully rebuild it.. most likely multiple times before he could teach it. and document it so u can study it without having to break it down.

secondly.. when u are studying, if u alter ur perception of the scenario a little bit. u will see that u must dissect the book, study it in small parts at a time. u dont just dump the book down ur throat on karate and digest it and suddenly.. you are karate master. it will take both strong elements of study to completion of the book and confirmation thru practice. thus the book in this perception must be broken down, and rebuilt to prove completed understanding.

yes someone may have also made God but that should not be our concern just yet (4) When then? And if it should not be our concern, why are we discussing it?

im not the one asking the question. im the one saying to those asking.. dont bother asking the answer to that question if we cant find the answer to the question before it.

since we having trouble finding the one who made us We dont have trouble my friend, some people say Adam and Eve, some people say we evolved. Where's the trouble? We just havent understood yet, but someday we may.. u understand? i bring back the primary school child analogy. a standard 2 student still having trouble with his times tables insists the teacher should teach him how to build a light speed travel space ship. not only is that information out of the teacher's league.. but the child has no chance absorbing and handling all the information and mathematical calculations that would be required to complete said spaceship. the child needs to focus on learning everything the teacher can teach and then move on to a teacher who knows more and work his way up.
and it is no different. my point is. humans have not stopped evolving. This is contradicting your point abovewe have been evolving and are evolving right now.. spiritually (5) Says who?.

well if there were noone else saying it then .. says me! but there are whole communities who believe this and i also happen to agree with them from my perspective. at least in the 100s of thousands, but really in the millions. birds of a feather flock together u know.

we not growing fur or gaining glow in the dark capabilities.. but our brains are evolving towards 'realizing' the spiritual nature of ourselves (6) Again..........Says who?.
. science and all the things we learn from it will quicker prove God exists than disprove it (7) Again..........Says who?.
i dont posit that nobody made our God. i am not sure 'made' is even the word. what word can be used.. do we even have a word in any language that can be used to describe the process that awoken the vast consciousness i refer to as God?YES, "IMAGINATION"

God may have spawned from a race of Gods, or he may have a God himself, who also has a God. but i don't think that is our business(8) IS THIS YOUR OPINION?

it's a supposition, which is different from an opinion. i dont have the answer for that question.

. our business is right home with our family. not in other ppl backyard. we have our own journey to make and common sense logic always leads to an intelligent designer (9) Which common logic? Yours? If we were to go with your logic and say it leads to an intelligent designer, then who designed God?.

the common logic is that of countless scholars i have researched in my time. having access to an astounding library on all the topics of the world. it is what ive spent my life doing.. scouring these books for understanding. what i claim is by no means unique. just i may be the only one among u by ratios that will testify my support that what they say is true ON THIS FORUM.

also if i dont answer ur question it's because it was answered previously.

i am just giving him the marvel he justly deserves (10) How can marvel at something that doesnt exist?. just as we marvel at stars on the stage and cheer them on for their great artwork or musical production. this creation is marvellous. and i give jack his jacket.. that is all.We marvel at stars because they physically interact with us and give us visual and musical pleasure ....... directly. This thing you refer to as God does not do this, hence the reason his existence CANNOT be proven..........yet

his existence is proven in accessing the spiritual realms using YOUR MAGNIFICENT CREATION which God has given you to find him. while u are waiting on science.. God gave u the FULL SET OF TOOLS required to reach his realm and him.. along with countless other realms. it is built into the body. it is known as the chakra system. and it is the true form of prayer!!

if someone is doing something and it isnt working then u might give it a couple more tries but search for other methods as well not so? this is why the world is full of religious fanatics of all faiths. like crazy ppl doing the same thing over and over and it not working yet they keep trying the same thing and would not even explore outside their faith for answers. so all who have prayed and blame God did not answer their prayers have noone to blame but themselves for not doing their own homework. meditation is the key to prayer.. however.. any form of reverant devotion to prayer with the symbolic representation of Supreme Being etched into ur mind is also considered prayer/meditation. a deeply reverant hymn sung with deep thoughts of divinity.. a spiritual dance.. it can be while u are doing a painting and increasing ur focus that ur praying/meditating. these things are only phenomenon to the public. but there is a whole science devoted to it.. in the works of men like Manly P Hall among a host of others. but u would not know these men and how easily u can all get their books and knowledge off google. this information was at one time ferociously guarded and hidden. but the time came for it to be revealed. and is spreading across the world as we speak.

the chakra system is the path to your higher consciousness. it is the path to God.

[rocknrolla]

someone suddenly had an epiphany 1700 years after Christ?

i like that question. im hoping someone has an epiphany that we still have learning and major changes in our system to do, and that continuously trying to patch this one up is on the threshold of holding us back from that step.