The Religion Discussion

[djaggs]

I dont endorse those videos.

which videos and why?

The videos djaggs post earlier. Briefly, I dont believe the signs and wonders gifts of the New Testament are operating today. While I believe God can work miracles today, I dont believe in "miracle workers."

But before you misunderstand me, this is a not essential doctrine in Christianity. I share fellowship with those who disagree with me in this area.

I respect your view bro...

[marlener]

Along with what Habit said above,It is not possible for the Holy Spirit to be thrown and tossed about as seen in the videos,and when we begin to understand the very nature of the Holy Spirit and who we are, we would not even entertain this.Like Manning pulling an election date from his pants fob.Also in all my reading of the Bible I have never seen anyone fall down when being healed instead they rose up.Awaits certain persons to rush in with expected responses.

[djaggs]

Along with what Habit said above,It is not possible for the Holy Spirit to be thrown and tossed about as seen in the videos,and when we begin to understand the very nature of the Holy Spirit and who we are, we would not even entertain this.Like Manning pulling an election date from his pants fob.Also in all my reading of the Bible I have never seen anyone fall down when being healed instead they rose up.Awaits certain persons to rush in with expected responses.

Look at the video again, the people who were demon possesed fell down, the people who were healed rose up. I also respect your view.

[rocknrolla]

Along with what Habit said above,It is not possible for the Holy Spirit to be thrown and tossed about as seen in the videos,and when we begin to understand the very nature of the Holy Spirit and who we are, we would not even entertain this.Like Manning pulling an election date from his pants fob.Also in all my reading of the Bible I have never seen anyone fall down when being healed instead they rose up.Awaits certain persons to rush in with expected responses.

yeah i didnt even bother with the videos. from what u wrote.. sounds like the classic pastor acting and entertainment with ppl catching epileptic fitts. it's more business to most of these guys. that's what alot of ppl dont get.

[rocknrolla]

Along with what Habit said above,It is not possible for the Holy Spirit to be thrown and tossed about as seen in the videos,and when we begin to understand the very nature of the Holy Spirit and who we are, we would not even entertain this.Like Manning pulling an election date from his pants fob.Also in all my reading of the Bible I have never seen anyone fall down when being healed instead they rose up.Awaits certain persons to rush in with expected responses.

Look at the video again, the people who were demon possesed fell down, the people who were healed rose up. I also respect your view.

it's a scam. actors and entertainment.

[AdamB]

^^^So how does that prove your original point that Isaiah 29 prophesies the Quran?

Are you in denial (once again) or in opposition to commentators of the bible in their statement that Isaiah 29:13 refers to the Jews who were "God's people" at the time of it's "revelation"?

Does it not make sense that GOD would mention the prophet who cannot read (in reference to the people who follow him in the future, the muslims) BEFORE stating the people (Jews) who were hypocrites at the time?

You are hell-bent on trying to be deceptive and play gamed with the truth. You are only managing to deceive yourself.

[bluefete]

I dont endorse those videos.

which videos and why?

The videos djaggs post earlier. Briefly, I dont believe the signs and wonders gifts of the New Testament are operating today. While I believe God can work miracles today, I dont believe in "miracle workers."

But before you misunderstand me, this is a not essential doctrine in Christianity. I share fellowship with those who disagree with me in this area.

You have just denied everything you believe in and made God out to be a liar. God continues to pour out his Spirit on people and work through people.

I agree that, unfortunately, God is not given the credit for many miracles. The "miracle worker" is God not the human being claiming the credit..

Those videos are signs that God still works miracles today.

However, I have not heard nor read of any miracles coming from the recent Benny Hinn crusade.

[bluefete]

Along with what Habit said above,It is not possible for the Holy Spirit to be thrown and tossed about as seen in the videos,and when we begin to understand the very nature of the Holy Spirit and who we are, we would not even entertain this.Like Manning pulling an election date from his pants fob.Also in all my reading of the Bible I have never seen anyone fall down when being healed instead they rose up.Awaits certain persons to rush in with expected responses.

Look at the video again, the people who were demon possesed fell down, the people who were healed rose up. I also respect your view.

it's a scam. actors and entertainment.

He had to fall to acknowledge the supremacy of Jesus.

Mark 3:11
And whenever the unclean spirits saw him, they fell down before him and cried out, “You are the Son of God.”

Mark 9:20-21
And they brought the boy to him. And when the spirit saw him, immediately it convulsed the boy, and he fell on the ground and rolled about, foaming at the mouth. And Jesus asked his father, “How long has this been happening to him?” And he said, “From childhood.


Demons Cast into Pigs
(Matthew 8:28-34; Mark 5:1-20)

26And they arrived at the country of the Gadarenes, which is over against Galilee. 27And when he went forth to land, there met him out of the city a certain man, which had devils long time, and ware no clothes, neither abode in any house, but in the tombs. 28When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not. 29(For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For oftentimes it had caught him: and he was kept bound with chains and in fetters; and he brake the bands, and was driven of the devil into the wilderness.) 30And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him. 31And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep.

32And there was there an herd of many swine feeding on the mountain: and they besought him that he would suffer them to enter into them. And he suffered them. 33Then went the devils out of the man, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the lake, and were choked.

34When they that fed them saw what was done, they fled, and went and told it in the city and in the country. 35Then they went out to see what was done; and came to Jesus, and found the man, out of whom the devils were departed, sitting at the feet of Jesus, clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid. 36They also which saw it told them by what means he that was possessed of the devils was healed. 37Then the whole multitude of the country of the Gadarenes round about besought him to depart from them; for they were taken with great fear: and he went up into the ship, and returned back again. 38Now the man out of whom the devils were departed besought him that he might be with him: but Jesus sent him away, saying, 39Return to thine own house, and shew how great things God hath done unto thee. And he went his way, and published throughout the whole city how great things Jesus had done unto him.

[marlener]

True bluefete,but if you look at the video EVERYBODY touched was falling,were they all demon possessed?I even went further to watch videos from the churches website and others and saw that it was a regular thing.No matter what the ailment they fell down when touched.I also did some further research on the church some rather interesting findings came up.The bible gives guidelines to recognise the the real from the false.Each person must study and compare.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

This is my view on creation....

unfortunately I don't have 1 hour and 20mins to spare to watch the video.

can you just answer the question directly? How old do you think the earth is? 6000-12,000 years or Billions or years?

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

This is my view on creation....

unfortunately I don't have 1 hour and 20mins to spare to watch the video.

can you just answer the question directly? How old do you think the earth is? 6000-12,000 years or Billions or years?

Ok I watched through most of it.

He is saying that the term "day" can mean 12hrs, 24hrs, a term or an age and that the Bible does NOT state anywhere what the actual age of the earth is. This of course is in direct disagreement with Habit7's take that the earth was created ~6000 years ago as supported by the research of Dr. Jason Lisle (http://www.icr.org/jason_lisle/).

Dr. Lennox also states the creation process "ends" and "culminates with the highest form of life: human beings made in the image of God." Then he says "human beings are the only beings in the entire universe that are made in the image of God".

I take it therefore, that there is no lifeform higher than humans elsewhere in the universe on other planets?

[marlener]

According to the bible the evening and the morning was the first day.So exactly how many evenings and mornings are there in 12hrs/24hrs. I believe that the Earth as a planet is older than 6000 but creation as stated in the bible is around 6000.does that make me a young earth creationist?

[Habit7]

^^^So how does that prove your original point that Isaiah 29 prophesies the Quran?

Are you in denial (once again) or in opposition to commentators of the bible in their statement that Isaiah 29:13 refers to the Jews who were "God's people" at the time of it's "revelation"?

Does it not make sense that GOD would mention the prophet who cannot read (in reference to the people who follow him in the future, the muslims) BEFORE stating the people (Jews) who were hypocrites at the time?

You are hell-bent on trying to be deceptive and play gamed with the truth. You are only managing to deceive yourself.

It seems that you want to be chief interpreter of the Quran and the Bible, while saying that it is corrupt, while saying that Allah gave the Torah, Psalms and Gospel which you still cant find.

When you can find a specific fulfillment of prophecy like Isaiah 53, 700 years before the birth of Christ, with the attesting Dead Sea Scrolls to prove it was untampered even before the events it prophesied...then come and refer Islam to the Bible. But since there is not, you need to submit to Christ as LORD and Saviour.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

I still don't see how that supports anything other than the book of Isaiah was not changed.

The Vedas haven't changed since thousands of years before that.

I believe that the Earth as a planet is older than 6000 but creation as stated in the bible is around 6000.

is there anything else in the bible that you don't believe?


Sent from my iPhone using TriniTuner mobile app

[MG Man]

Still just a fairytale

[AdamB]

So Marlener,
The Earth is older than Creation as stated in the Bible? What exactly is the "God of the Bible" responsible for creating? And who created the other things in existence over 6000 yrs old like the Earth, stars, dinosaurs, etc?

Of course, if the bible gives the account of creation of particular things, it does not mean that other things were not created before...unless it says that.

Particularisation does not prevent association...just like worship of GOD does not prevent worship of other "gods" (entities that man takes for god).

GOD says in the Bible "thou shalt have no gods besides me" and in the Quran "there is no (real true) god except the ONE TRUE GOD"!!

[AdamB]

I still don't see how that supports anything other than the book of Isaiah was not changed.

The Vedas haven't changed since thousands of years before that.

I believe that the Earth as a planet is older than 6000 but creation as stated in the bible is around 6000.

is there anything else in the bible that you don't believe?


Sent from my iPhone using TriniTuner mobile app

Two wrongs don't make a right...just like 2 forgeries don't make the accounts unchanged or un-corrupted. Does either have verifiable writers? Who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls? What makes it correct?

If a scroll (pages) were found today with Quran / hadith, it would not be rendered authentic simply because we don't have the records of witnessing, transmission and preservation.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ speaking of which, I know some Muslims follow the Qur'an only, stating that Hadith and Sira are not authentic - what is your take on this?

[/quote]Millions of Muslims all over the world have been brought up to believe that the collections of hadith by Bukhari and Moslim provide the authentic words and teachings of the prophet Muhammad. These two collections have been labelled "sahih" (authentic). The majority of these hadith portray a chain of narrators in a chinese whispers fashion attributing sayings to the Prophet (e.g. A said that B said that C said ....... that G said, that the Prophet said). Often the chain extends to seven names or even more, yet for some reason the hadith advocates still deemed these hadith to be the authentic and genuine sayings of the Prophet! With an extremely naive type of logic. It is assumed that every person in the chain, not only was totally honest, but that he had a super human memory to enable him to narrate accurately incidents that took place one hundred or two hundred years earlier.! How did they come to this conclusion?

The hadith advocates have devised a very simple criteria for the assessment of any hadith. To them, the validity of any hadith is dependant on the integrity of the narrator! They will tell us that hadith no 374 (for example) is a genuine hadith because the narrator has been checked for good character!

Bearing in mind that these narrators lived 14 centuries ago, we may enquire: Were they checked by contemporaries of their time, by hadith scholars today or who? Needless to say, the claim to endorse the integrity of 6 or 7 narrators who transmitted a story through a chinese whisper type of chain, and who all lived 14 centuries ago, and whom we have never seen or heard of (except from the hadith books themselves) is a very naive practice to say the least!

But that is not all, even if the integrity of each one in the chain is beyond question, what about the errors that occur merely through the effect of a chinese whisper chain?

For demonstration of this concept please refer to: Chinese Whispers

In view of the above, common sense implies that we should disregard this farcical process. This criteria should have been discarded a long time ago. It is totally unreliable and is simply unacceptable. It seems absurd that the obvious criteria (and actually the only reliable one), by which to test the authenticity of any hadith was ignored!

Since the authenticity of the Quran, being the un-corrupted word of God, is not a matter of dispute by any Muslim, then it would make better sense to assess the authenticity of any hadith by determining whether this hadith is in harmony with Quranic truth or whether in fact it is in violation of Quranic truth. Sadly, the hadith scholars are not interested whether any one hadith contradicts the Quran or not, for if such occasion arrises, they will quickly describe the Quranic verse (which contradicts the hadith) as beeing abrogated!
For details of this great lie against the Quran please check: The lie of Quranic Abrogation

All the time, the scholars should have been checking the content of the hadith itself rather than the farcical character reference of the narrators!

It must be stressed here that testing the authenticity of any hadith is not for the purpose of approving the hadith as a source of religious law. The reader of the Quran should be well aware that God sanctions the Quran to be the sole source of religious law:

"Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?" 6:114

Testing the authenticity of any hadith is only relevant for historic purposes and for the benefit of those who wish to research the life of the Prophet. After all, and as we shall see later, the Prophet himself prohibited his people from writing or documenting his hadith, which makes the whole collection of hadith books a very dubious matter indeed.

Consequently, and if we try to apply the only logical criteria for testing the hadith (its compliance with the Quran) we are immediately faced with serious contradictions between a large number of hadith on one hand and between the Quran on the other hand. However, if we accept that the Prophet of God would never have taught anything that violates or contradicts the Quran, then we must conclude that any hadith which contradicts the Quran, and which is attributed to the Prophet, is indeed a lie and a fabrication which the prophet is innocent of.

Our starting point is to examine the following two contradicting hadith.


In the first hadith it is reported that the Prophet said to his people shortly before his death:

"I have left you the Quran and my sunna"

Yet in another hadith the Prophet commands his people quite the opposite:

"Do not write down anything of me except the Quran. Whoever writes other than that should delete it" (Ahmed, Vol. 1, page 171.....also Sahih Muslim )[/quote]
http://www.quran-islam.org/islam/articl ... het_(P1177).html

[AdamB]

^^^What's the authority and validity of a "source" that are not muslims but are possibly hindu imposters with site that claims "true islam"? Their motives are of course to deceive muslims who don't know better and to prevent hindus from converting to Islam.

Is this the same site introduced by DFC a while back...that was shot down?

[DFC]

Your refusal/inability to answer the questions asked is how you shot it down right.

lol.

how do you guys celebrate mothers day?

[AdamB]

^^^What's the authority and validity of a "source" that are not muslims but are possibly hindu imposters with site that claims "true islam"? Their motives are of course to deceive muslims who don't know better and to prevent hindus from converting to Islam.

Is this the same site introduced by DFC a while back...that was shot down?

To reinforce my point, check the site and give me some names or just one name of a person who is a scholar of Islam that he would propose, promote and support these ridiculous views.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^^^What's the authority and validity of a "source" that are not muslims but are possibly hindu imposters with site that claims "true islam"? Their motives are of course to deceive muslims who don't know better and to prevent hindus from converting to Islam.

Is this the same site introduced by DFC a while back...that was shot down?

not sure if you are referring to the site I posted since you used three ^^^ instead of ^

anyway regardless of the site it was posted on, I know some Muslims only follow the Qur'an and not Hadith or Sira. What is your take on this since neither are the word of God and could be misrepresented and changed by man?

[AdamB]

As we well know, the actions of "some" muslims are not always supported by textual evidence. Those who deny the Sunnah / Hadith cannot practise the religion of Islam because in the Sunnah is detailed how all acts of worship are to be performed as well as recommendations for every facet of life.

There is authoritative validity of the Sunnah/hadith, to make a long story short. The "Quranites" are wrong. Just look at the site: why are they hiding with their tails between their legs?

It is dishonesty to say you support one view saying that other views are wrong and not identify yourseld and your daleel (evidence). It has to be stated that other major scholars have their opposing views with the evidence they cite to support them.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ do some scholars support some Hadith and claim other Hadith are false / not authentic?


Sent from my iPhone using TriniTuner mobile app

[bluefete]

^^^What's the authority and validity of a "source" that are not muslims but are possibly hindu imposters with site that claims "true islam"? Their motives are of course to deceive muslims who don't know better and to prevent hindus from converting to Islam.

Is this the same site introduced by DFC a while back...that was shot down?

not sure if you are referring to the site I posted since you used three ^^^ instead of ^

anyway regardless of the site it was posted on, I know some Muslims only follow the Qur'an and not Hadith or Sira. What is your take on this since neither are the word of God and could be misrepresented and changed by man?

As we well know, the actions of "some" muslims are not always supported by textual evidence. Those who deny the Sunnah / Hadith cannot practise the religion of Islam because in the Sunnah is detailed how all acts of worship are to be performed as well as recommendations for every facet of life.

There is authoritative validity of the Sunnah/hadith, to make a long story short. The "Quranites" are wrong. Just look at the site: why are they hiding with their tails between their legs?

It is dishonesty to say you support one view saying that other views are wrong and not identify yourseld and your daleel (evidence). It has to be stated that other major scholars have their opposing views with the evidence they cite to support them.

This sounds so much like Christianity.

Follow the teaching and interpretations of the Mullahs / Imams / Scholars not the words of the Qu'ran.

Follow the teaching and interpretation of the Church / Popes / Pastors / not the words of the Bible.

If you really want to know what it is, read it for yourself!!

[bluefete]

True bluefete,but if you look at the video EVERYBODY touched was falling,were they all demon possessed?I even went further to watch videos from the churches website and others and saw that it was a regular thing.No matter what the ailment they fell down when touched.I also did some further research on the church some rather interesting findings came up.The bible gives guidelines to recognise the the real from the false.Each person must study and compare.

I watched the video of the woman with the open cancer wound on her thigh and the one of the fellow with the diabetic leg. I did not see either of them fall down. As a matter of fact the preacher never touched the woman with the cancer wound. He sprayed some kind of fluid on the mouth and leg of the diabetic man.

When the woman with the cancer returned some time later, I thought a surgeon might have sewn up her wound. But that would not account for the disappearance of the cancer cells.

I do agree with you, however, that we must test the spirits to see whether they are from God.

Just remember, sickness cannot cast out sickness.

[AdamB]

Bluefete,
That's how many individual and groups have led themselves astray. The people of knowledge understand the meaning of the "unclear verses". Even the "clear" verses may have multiple meanings, layers, depending on the level of the scholar and very important that the meanings don't oppose each other.

[bluefete]

Stupid is as stupid does.

‘Oy’-glasses! Orthodox Brooklyn yeshiva bans ‘hip’ thick-framed glasses
Yeshiva ban on hipster frames

By GARY BUISO
Last Updated: 9:47 AM, May 12, 2013
Posted: 12:11 AM, May 12, 2013


Thou shalt not wear nerdy glasses!

An Orthodox Jewish school in Brooklyn has forbidden thick-framed retro glasses favored by the likes of Woody Allen.

“We are asking that everyone buy simple glasses,” reads a letter written in Yiddish that was recently issued to parents of students at Borough Park’s Bobover Yeshiva B’Nei Zion, which caters to members of the Bobov sect.

“What we have to commit ourselves to is we have to stand on top of this and not tolerate the new modernism.”

Students at the 48th Street school, which serves Grades 4 through 12, plus older rabbinical students, had been taking a shine to thick-framed and multicolored glasses.

“The good deed that accompanied the Jews in Egypt was that they didn’t change their names and clothes, and this same strength is still accompanying us and maintaining us in exile — in all generations,” explains the letter, which calls for traditional garb and was posted by the blog Failed Messiah.

School officials admit there’s no easy way to head off trends in specs, since styles fluctuate so much.

Still, the thick frames — often seen on celebs such as LeBron James and Justin Timberlake — “give the child a very coarse look,” the letter says.

“It doesn’t matter what age — a student cannot come to yeshiva with these glasses,” the letter reads.

Parents are asked to exchange the “immodest” frames and told that the expense should be viewed as an “educational boost.”

Lumiere Eyewear, a local optical shop, said it has already exchanged 30 pairs in just two weeks.

School officials recently descended on another local eyewear shop, MS Optical, to inspect its wares, an employee told The Post.

“They basically said these are the Hasidic ones — and those are not,” the employee said.

The store keeps its “acceptable” glasses — frameless, semi-rimless — in a separate display, far away from bolder styles.

Students — all wearing plain, wire-framed glasses — said they support the edict.

“What one kid does, another will copy. The school doesn’t want a domino effect,” said Nafle Frank. “Style is not a sin, but the culture is to stay away from new things and to keep them the way they were.”

He joked that the two Satmar grand rabbis — Aaron and Zalman Teitelbaum — have been wearing hipster glasses for the past 35 years.

“Now they look up to date,” he said.



http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/broo ... Gruass5JOI

[djaggs]

Wherever the Church is being persecuted, God is pouring out His power and demostrating the resurrection power of our risen Lord Jesus Christ. In this video, a Coptic Priest, Fr. Makary Younan opens the eyes of a blind Muslim boy in Egypt.

[bluefete]

Bluefete,
That's how many individual and groups have led themselves astray. The people of knowledge understand the meaning of the "unclear verses". Even the "clear" verses may have multiple meanings, layers, depending on the level of the scholar and very important that the meanings don't oppose each other.

But aren't these interpretations that they place on scriptures and verses? Their interpretations??

I tell people that if you want to understand the Gita, Vedas, Qu'ran, Bible, ask God for understanding when you read. If you don't get it, leave it alone.

These interpretations are the reasons why there is so much dissonance.

Unclear verses are not necessarily to be interpreted by scholars.