TriniTuner.com | Latest Event:
Moderator: 3ne2nr Mods
d spike wrote:
Simple-minded folk are satisfied with the concept of "judgement"; after all, it makes sense to them (you do wrong and get punished, or if you do right, you get a really big cookie) and as it falls within the bounds of being theologically correct, it is left alone. However, when the matter is studied properly, one realises that it isn't God actively "choosing" who is "saved"... rather, it is we who do it to ourselves! (YOU LITTLE BASTARD, I SAW WHAT YOU DID... TO HELL WITH YOU... draws line through name... WHO'S NEXT?)
megadoc1 wrote:in Christianity going to hell or heaven, is not dependent on what one does, (good or bad)
it is dependent on the choices one makes(Jesus or no Jesus), anyone going to hell chooses to do so or most of the times are deceived into doing so anyone going to heaven chooses to do so too..
what a person does (good or bad) is based
on the choices they make concerning such
megadoc1 wrote:d spike wrote:
Simple-minded folk are satisfied with the concept of "judgement"; after all, it makes sense to them (you do wrong and get punished, or if you do right, you get a really big cookie) and as it falls within the bounds of being theologically correct, it is left alone. However, when the matter is studied properly, one realises that it isn't God actively "choosing" who is "saved"... rather, it is we who do it to ourselves
in Christianity going to hell or heaven, is not dependent on what one does, (good or bad)
it is dependent on the choices one makes(Jesus or no Jesus)
megadoc1 wrote:anyone going to hell chooses to do so
megadoc1 wrote:or most of the times are deceived into doing so
megadoc1 wrote:so maybe you are right when you use the term "simple minded folks"
because you know what you posted is not a Christianity concept
Simple-minded folk are satisfied with the concept of "judgement"
devrat wrote:Sorry c@ri$$@....I should rephrase.........."Hands that help are Holier than hands that pray".
the deceived are not condemned because they were decieved, according to the bible, a person is already condemned way before he can ever be deceived ,what deception does is keep him away from truth so that he can not be justified righteous by putting his faith in Jesus Christ..mamoo_pagal wrote:megadoc1 wrote:in Christianity going to hell or heaven, is not dependent on what one does, (good or bad)
it is dependent on the choices one makes(Jesus or no Jesus), anyone going to hell chooses to do so or most of the times are deceived into doing so anyone going to heaven chooses to do so too..
what a person does (good or bad) is based
on the choices they make concerning such
how does a person who is decieved goes to hell?? Isn't that person a victim of false doctrines presented to them. Isn't a person who is decieved a victim just.....like an innocent girl who thinks she is in love by a man who lies through his teeth.
How are the decieved condemned?
megadoc1 wrote:the deceived are not condemned because they were decieved, according to the bible, a person is already condemned way before he can ever be deceived ,what deception does is keep him away from truth so that he can not be justified righteous by putting his faith in Jesus Christ..mamoo_pagal wrote:megadoc1 wrote:in Christianity going to hell or heaven, is not dependent on what one does, (good or bad)
it is dependent on the choices one makes(Jesus or no Jesus), anyone going to hell chooses to do so or most of the times are deceived into doing so anyone going to heaven chooses to do so too..
what a person does (good or bad) is based
on the choices they make concerning such
how does a person who is decieved goes to hell?? Isn't that person a victim of false doctrines presented to them. Isn't a person who is decieved a victim just.....like an innocent girl who thinks she is in love by a man who lies through his teeth.
How are the decieved condemned?
the deceived ones sometimes reject truth whenever they see it,that's the purpose behind deception.
bluefete wrote:Given the fact that so many of you tuners do not believe in God, does this mean that you do not believe in the existence of hell.
Hell being the forever burning place of torment that is promised to the devil and his angels and their human followers.
And if there is no hell, does this also mean that there is no Satan?
What say ye?
I am not on 2NR as often as before but I will be checking in to debate your replies.
c@ri$$@ wrote:devrat wrote:Sorry c@ri$$@....I should rephrase.........."Hands that help are Holier than hands that pray".
I guess some will be.
~Vēġó~ wrote:turbohead wrote:~Vēġó~ wrote:^^^true dat!!!!!!!!!!!
but what does Christianity and Islam say about where man comes from? and if when they die they go to heaven or hell (what goes? a soul?) then what accounts for more and more humans being born? where they coming from?
for the first question out of the little knowledge i have, everything comes from God and without His sustenance we wont survive, God created man out of clay/earth and breathed life ie the soul, in arabic the "ruh", into it. we the muslim believe that the body will at the time of death be returned to the earth and the soul will go to "barzaq" kind of like the waiting room until the day of judgement which all will be ressurected and be questioned and given or book of deeds in its respective hand.
we are firm in this belief because in the Quran God mentions that He says unto something be and it is.....
thanks for the response!!! may I ask of what would become of the "ruh" after judgement?
and devrat it's like "hands that serve are holier than lips that pray"
the deceived are not condemned because they were decieved, according to the bible, a person is already condemned way before he can ever be deceived ,what deception does is keep him away from truth so that he can not be justified righteous by putting his faith in Jesus Christ..
the deceived ones sometimes reject truth whenever they see it,that's the purpose behind deception
turbohead wrote:the deceived are not condemned because they were decieved, according to the bible, a person is already condemned way before he can ever be deceived ,what deception does is keep him away from truth so that he can not be justified righteous by putting his faith in Jesus Christ..
the deceived ones sometimes reject truth whenever they see it,that's the purpose behind deception
why do you put your faith in messenger who was sent by God
jesus you are asking about? well he said "if I come to Him He would give me life"and never claimed being God or part of ant trinity rather than God himself. if you could show me clearly where Jesus himself claimed this in the bible that he is GodJesus quotes:
He said he was equal to God...
"Your father Abraham rejoiced as he looked forward to my coming. He saw it and was glad." The people said, "You aren't even fifty years old. How can you say you have seen Abraham?" Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!" At that point they picked up stones to throw at him. But Jesus was hidden from them and left the Temple.4
"The Father and I are one." Once again the people picked up stones to kill him. Jesus said, "At my Father's direction I have done many good works. For which one are you going to stone me?" They replied, "We're stoning you not for any good work, but for blasphemy! You, a mere man, claim to be God."5
Jesus shouted to the crowds, "If you trust me, you are trusting not only me, but also God who sent me. For when you see me, you are seeing the one who sent me. I have come as a light to shine in this dark world, so that all who put their trust in me will no longer remain in the dark."6
After washing their feet, he put on his robe again and sat down and asked, "Do you understand what I was doing? You call me 'Teacher' and 'Lord,' and you are right, because that's what I am. And since I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you ought to wash each other's feet."7
Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me. If you had really known me, you would know who my Father is. From now on, you do know him and have seen him!" Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied." Jesus replied, "Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and yet you still don't know who I am? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father! So why are you asking me to show him to you?"8
Jesus quotes:
How he described himself...
Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, Moses didn't give you bread from heaven. My Father did. And now he offers you the true bread from heaven. The true bread of God is the one who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world." "Sir," they said, "give us that bread every day." Jesus replied, "I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never be hungry again. Whoever believes in me will never be thirsty."9
Jesus spoke to the people once more and said, "I am the light of the world. If you follow me, you won't have to walk in darkness, because you will have the light that leads to life." The Pharisees replied, "You are making those claims about yourself! Such testimony is not valid." Jesus told them, "These claims are valid even though I make them about myself. For I know where I came from and where I am going, but you don't know this about me."10
so he explained it to them: "I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep. All who came before me were thieves and robbers. But the true sheep did not listen to them. Yes, I am the gate. Those who come in through me will be saved. They will come and go freely and will find good pastures. The thief's purpose is to steal and kill and destroy. My purpose is to give them a rich and satisfying life. I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd sacrifices his life for the sheep."11
Martha said to Jesus, "Lord, if only you had been here, my brother would not have died. But even now I know that God will give you whatever you ask." Jesus told her, "Your brother will rise again." "Yes," Martha said, "he will rise when everyone else rises, at the last day." Jesus told her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Anyone who believes in me will live, even after dying. Everyone who lives in me and believes in me will never ever die. Do you believe this, Martha?" "Yes, Lord," she told him. "I have always believed you are the Messiah, the Son of God, the one who has come into the world from God."12
or part thereof of three without parables because as God he wouldnt have to use parables
he would state so clearly as Allaah did so in the Quran.
sorry that's because the God of the Qur'an is not the God of the bible.. you just proved that yourself
Jesus was a monotheist and prayed to one God, not his "father" but he said the Lords prayer repeat with me and he goes on to say "our Father" if he was exclusive son he would have said "my Father" which in turn the followers would say Jesus' Father. "Thy kingdom come" if he was part of the Trinity as you claim then he would have said "Our kingdom" because he is part of it. "forgive us our traspasses......, and lead us not in temptation" you could imagine Jesus being God or any part thereof being lead into temptation and askin himself to forgive himself.
the Lords prayer is one of the few parts that they werent able to twist in there own words.
ok let us start from the beginning and I would show you why what you posted can't make much senseMat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
andLuk 11:1 And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.
Luk 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as
now can we agree that Jesus was actually teaching his people how to pray?
why did they leave out the Gospel of St Barnabus? irrelevant wasnt it as pure as the others? irrelevant wasnt he around the time of Jesus to be able to record the truth? irrelevant if you are followers of the scriptures why dont you follow the teachings of Abraham(pbuh) also. irrelevant why not circumcise you boy children. do you no who built the Kaaba which the muslims make the pilgrimage to every year if possible? irrelevant irrelevant it was Abraham. we believe in the prophets of Allaah, all 124000 give or take, 25 of which was named in the Quran.
you have lots of questions but you are not really looking for answers
ARTICLE
Is Allah Identical to the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ?
by Ergun Mehmet Caner
This is a difficult question, especially in the English language. Linguistically,
anyone who uses the term “God” is basically saying the same thing: They are
referring to the uncreated Creator of the universe. In this fashion, Muslims, Jews, Christians, Hindus, and all others are referring to the Lord of the universe when they
use the term “God.”
With regard to Islam, the similarities of Allah and Jehovah are greater for two
reasons: (1) Islam embraces monotheism, which means “one God,” just like
Christianity and Judaism, and (2) Muhammad used many of the people cited
in the Bible when he created the Qur’an, such as Noah (Surah 6:84), Jacob (Surah 2:132), and Jesus (Surah 3:45–47).
The similarities end there however. Think of Islam as a form of “medieval Mormonism.” Like Mormonism, Islam is based on the faulty premise that the Bible’s
description of God and Jesus Christ is incorrect. Like Mormonism, Islam teaches that
both Christianity and Judaism are false religions, and that Islam through the Qur’an is the only true faith.
Ultimately, this is not an issue of vocabulary; it is an issue of definition. The Allah of
the Qur’an is described and defined in a way that clearly shows Muhammad was not presenting the same God. The God of Islam is remote, and not intimate (Surah 112).
Allah does not have a son (Surah 2:116), is not a Trinity (Surah 5:72), and does not
love unconditionally (Surah 8:53). In Islam, Jesus is simply a prophet, and emphatically is not the Son of God (Surah 5:72), and the angel Gabriel is the Holy Spirit (Surah 2:193).
Remember, when Muhammad was alive (A.D. 570–632), the Bible was already in
its complete canonical form. This is not an issue of ignorance. Muhammad, living just
over 700 miles south of Jerusalem, knew the Bible and rejected it. Instead, he
created a system that changed the nature and attributes of God, but still used the
name.
Indeed, these differences cover the entire theology of Christianity. In Islam, there are “angels” that are created from fire (called jinn, Surah 72), a Tree of Zaqqum in hell (Surah 3:62–67), and virgin servants in heaven (Surah 4:57). In fact, even the creation in Islam is corrupted. In Islam, Satan’s fall was due to his unwillingness to bow to Adam (Surah 2:34).
In summation, one can state it thus: Islam rejects the fatherheart of God, the divinity of the Son, and the person of the Holy Spirit. You cannot change the nature of the God of the Bible without changing the “god” you are presenting. It is not the same God.1
SR-B14 wrote:Any of you tuners who don't believe in GOD or heaven and hell willing to sacrifice you life for your belief's? If you have neither heaven or hell to look forward too,openly admit your an atheist, save yourselves a lifetime of bills to pay, disappointments, pain, suffering, murder, vehicle accidents,cancer,heart disease,heart break, all the trials of life, it's just a simple question, why stick around?
SR-B14 wrote:You missed the point, suicide will not get me to where i want to be because i do believe in an afterlife and suicide is NOT the way, the question was from a non-believers point of view if there is no afterlife?
I am not asking from a religious point of view, we are all seeking answers, thanks for the response.
SR-B14 wrote:Any of you tuners who don't believe in GOD or heaven and hell willing to sacrifice you life for your belief's? If you have neither heaven or hell to look forward too,openly admit your an atheist, save yourselves a lifetime of bills to pay, disappointments, pain, suffering, murder, vehicle accidents,cancer,heart disease,heart break, all the trials of life, it's just a simple question, why stick around?
SR-B14 wrote:You missed the point, suicide will not get me to where i want to be because i do believe in an afterlife and suicide is NOT the way, the question was from a non-believers point of view if there is no afterlife?
I am not asking from a religious point of view, we are all seeking answers, thanks for the response.
SR-B14 wrote:cool, I understand your train of thought, but what about the non-believer who does not have an enjoyable life and is of sane mind?
turbohead wrote:so you tryna say that Allah is a different God and that God in the bible is two diferent God,
no no no ! dont get it twisted. what I am saying is that the God of the bible and Allah is not the same God
just look at the characteristics of the two and you will see for yourself
muhammed(saw) created the islamic way of life yes!!
and Wrote the Quran himself? nope!In the year 610 (believed to be the 26th of Ramadan), while in a cave on Mt. Hirah, which is now called Mount Jabal Nur, Muhammad said that the angel Gabriel appeared to him and commanded him to recite (96:1-19). From that point on, Muhammad claimed to have received revelations up to the time of his death, 23 years later in 632. In these encounters with the angel Gabriel, sometimes Muhammad would see the angel, other times he would only hear him, and at others he only heard the sound of a bell through which the words of the angel came.
Since Muhammad could not read or write, his companions wrote down what he said. These recitations were copied onto a variety of materials: papyrus, flat stones, palm leaves, shoulder blades and ribs of animals, pieces of leather and wooden boards.1 Additionally, these sayings were also being memorized by Mohammad's followers. In fact, to this day, great emphasis is placed upon memorizing the entire Qur'an and there are many thousands of Muslims who have committed it to memory. The work is roughly the same size as the New Testament.
Apparently, there was no attempt made to collect all of the sayings given by Muhammad during his lifetime. After all, Mohammad was continuing to give ' recitations' on a somewhat regular basis. But, after he died in 632, Abu-Bakr, Muhammad's father in law, became the caliph (religious leader of the Muslims) and there was a small effort to collect the fragments of Qur'anic sayings into a common place. But, it wasn't until the fourth leader of Islam, Caliph Uthman, that the whole Qur'an was finally assembled, approved, and disseminated throughout the Muslim world
ahahahahahahah man alyuh men good, but what i dont understand is why is he gospel of st barnabus irrelevant? dont believe in some and reject the others.
I did not say that the gospel of st Barnabas is irrelevant, I was merely stating that your
questioning, concerning barnabas was not relevant to what you quoted of me
and we were already way off topic, I just didnot want to go further........
anyways read what is below
The Muslim scholar Cyril Glassé states:
As regards the "Gospel of Barnabas" itself, there is no question that it is a medieval forgery. A complete Italian manuscript exists which appears to be a translation from a Spanish original (which exists in part), written to curry favor with Muslims of the time. It contains anachronisms which can date only from the Middle Ages and not before, and shows a garbled comprehension of Islamic doctrines, calling the Prophet "the Messiah", which Islam does not claim for him. Besides its farcical notion of sacred history, stylistically it is a mediocre parody of the Gospels, as the writings of Baha'Allah are of the Koran.
The Concise Encyclopedia of Islam, Harper & Row, 1989, p. 64
Graham H. Twelftree
The four Gospels in our Bible had all been written by the end of the first century. Apparently no other gospels were written by this time. By the last 20 years of the second century, when Irenaeus the bishop of Lyon was writing, the four Gospels had been widely and firmly established for some time as the only ones accepted by mainstream Christianity. However, many sections of the church did not use all of them.
Irenaeus argued against accepting other gospels, such as the Gospel of Truth, alleged to have been written by the Gnostic teacher Valentinus. He said it had only recently been written and “did not agree in any respect with the Gospels of the apostles”. This gospel is a homily or meditation and does not resemble our biblical Gospels in telling of the activities and teaching of Jesus, including His appearances after Easter. The same is true of the Gospel of Philip, an anthology of sayings from the mid-fourth century, as well as the second -century Greek Gospel of the Egyptians, about which we know little except that it was apparently a collection of sayings. The Gospel of Thomas, which also contains a collection of sayings of Jesus (some of which may be historically authentic) along with minimal narrative material, has been argued to be early. However, because of parallels with literature of this period, many date it late in the second century. More fanciful gospels include the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, with its miracles conducted by the child Jesus, ending with the story from Luke of the 12-year-old Jesus in the temple.
Other gospels approximate those in the NT. For example, the now largely missing Gospel of Peter came from the middle of the second century. From the fragmentary evidence we have, it told of the trial of Jesus, His crucifixion , and His appearing to a group of His followers. Also, the Gospel of the Ebionites, from Syria in the same period, is a harmony of Matthew, Mark, and Luke. Later in the century Tatian produced a widely used harmony of all four Gospels, the Diatessaron, which was highly valued particularly in Syria. From papyrus fragments we also have evidence of a handful of other gospels from as early as the second century. A letter of Clement of Alexandria (c. 150-215) discovered in 1958, which tells of a “secret gospel” of Mark, may be a modern forgery.
The Gospel of Hebrews, written before the mid-second century, perhaps in Egypt for Greek-speaking Jewish Christians, was the only gospel apart from the four in our Bible that was ever considered part of legitimate Scriptures by sections of orthodox Christianity. The few remaining quotations of it show that it probably began with Jesus’ preexistence and included His descent from heaven and subsequent birth. Jesus described Himself as the son of the Holy Spirit and reports His temptation. There are also examples of His teaching. During the Last Supper, James the brother of Jesus says he will not eat again until he has seen the risen Jesus. There was probably a story of the burial of Jesus, and those who guarded the tomb may have witnessed the resurrection. As anticipated, there is a story of Jesus appearing to James, reinforcing his importance to this gospel. Gnostic characteristics, divergence from the biblical Gospels, and lack of any connection with an apostle may account for its eventually being excluded from the NT by mainstream Christianity.
d spike wrote:SR-B14 wrote:cool, I understand your train of thought, but what about the non-believer who does not have an enjoyable life and is of sane mind?
Well, as a Roman philosopher said around 10 A.D.: "Better to exist crucified upon a sharpened cross, than never to have existed at all..."
His point was the "joy of life" relied upon existence mainly (duh) rather than having fun.
If this existence is ALL THERE IS, then, clearly, it is better than none at all.
SR-B14 wrote:d spike wrote:SR-B14 wrote:cool, I understand your train of thought, but what about the non-believer who does not have an enjoyable life and is of sane mind?
Well, as a Roman philosopher said around 10 A.D.: "Better to exist crucified upon a sharpened cross, than never to have existed at all..."
His point was the "joy of life" relied upon existence mainly (duh) rather than having fun.
If this existence is ALL THERE IS, then, clearly, it is better than none at all.
Well you really did not answer the question, don't quote some unknown person, I want to know what you as a person thinks, are you satisfied just existing, where is the joy in that, i would not be very happy living like that.
I don't have all the answers but i think when state in UPPERCASE LETTERS "ALL THERE IS" it leads me to think, you died saw there was nothing and came back with proof.
SR-B14 wrote:i think when state in UPPERCASE LETTERS "ALL THERE IS" it leads me to think, you died saw there was nothing and came back with proof.
Well you really did not answer the question, don't quote some unknown person
turbohead wrote:
so you tryna say that Allah is a different God and that God in the bible is two diferent God,
no no no ! dont get it twisted. what I am saying is that the God of the bible and Allah is not the same God
just look at the characteristics of the two and you will see for yourself
muhammed(saw) created the islamic way of life yes!!
and Wrote the Quran himself? nope!
Quote:
In the year 610 (believed to be the 26th of Ramadan), while in a cave on Mt. Hirah, which is now called Mount Jabal Nur, Muhammad said that the angel Gabriel appeared to him and commanded him to recite (96:1-19). From that point on, Muhammad claimed to have received revelations up to the time of his death, 23 years later in 632. In these encounters with the angel Gabriel, sometimes Muhammad would see the angel, other times he would only hear him, and at others he only heard the sound of a bell through which the words of the angel came.
Since Muhammad could not read or write, his companions wrote down what he said. These recitations were copied onto a variety of materials: papyrus, flat stones, palm leaves, shoulder blades and ribs of animals, pieces of leather and wooden boards.1 Additionally, these sayings were also being memorized by Mohammad's followers. In fact, to this day, great emphasis is placed upon memorizing the entire Qur'an and there are many thousands of Muslims who have committed it to memory. The work is roughly the same size as the New Testament.
Apparently, there was no attempt made to collect all of the sayings given by Muhammad during his lifetime. After all, Mohammad was continuing to give ' recitations' on a somewhat regular basis. But, after he died in 632, Abu-Bakr, Muhammad's father in law, became the caliph (religious leader of the Muslims) and there was a small effort to collect the fragments of Qur'anic sayings into a common place. But, it wasn't until the fourth leader of Islam, Caliph Uthman, that the whole Qur'an was finally assembled, approved, and disseminated throughout the Muslim world
ahahahahahahah man alyuh men good, but what i dont understand is why is he gospel of st barnabus irrelevant? dont believe in some and reject the others.
I did not say that the gospel of st Barnabas is irrelevant, I was merely stating that your
questioning, concerning barnabas was not relevant to what you quoted of me
and we were already way off topic, I just didnot want to go further........
anyways read what is below
SR-B14 wrote:d spike,"If" is stated to SHOW that the statement made IS NOT HELD AS TRUTH, but only suggested for the sake of debate.
Please explain, is your belief in the non-existence of an afterlife based on "If's" and "suggestion's", what really do you believe? If your statement is not to held as truth then is it a lie?
d spike wrote:While I don't ascribe to being an atheist, I must say that this entire line of questioning makes ABSOLUTELY no sense.
An atheist, believing in no other form of life after this one, will clearly wish to remain alive in this existence for as long as possible - as it is, in his view, the only existence. The need or desire to enjoy this life will make him consider the act of suicide as being wrong, or one of insanity.
SR-B14 wrote: If your statement is not to held as truth then is it a lie?
turbohead wrote:this compilation of the Quran wasnt a light matter, when they announced to the public that to bring forth watever pieces of Quran you have you had to walk with 2 accountable witnesses that proved your truth and you werent able to distort the words
Return to “Ole talk and more Ole talk”
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 27 guests
