Hoe's lil secret

[Raymond.EMS]

because Kezay left out a big part of the specs
advertised duration kezay quoted the duration at 0.050 inch of lift
JDM K20A (DC5) Stock
Adv. Dur. 320°/318°
Dur @ .050 224°/219°
Lift (mm) 12.27/10.7

Buddy club spec
SPEC II
intake 297° 12.4mm
exhaust 293° 11.8mm

[Cjruckus]

nehoe


we gonna check ajeet and jj16 dey......ah now hear dey fighting by d fence again

link?

[joker]

i'm parlour engine lover , any swap will be an sr rwd or fwd.

[Positive Performance]

i wasnt spending 40k on the K...S-ARRRR FTW...

[kes_vtec]

USDM K20A2 (RSX-S)
Adv. Dur.:296-300br>Dur @ .050: 222-224br>Lift (in): .520"/.497"
Lift (mm): 13.21/12.62

USDM K24A2 (TSX)
Adv. Dur.: 248-248br>Dur @ .050: 182-182br>Lift (in): .367"/.367"
Lift (mm): 9.32/9.32

JDM K20A (DC5)
Adv. Dur.: 245-245br>Dur @ .050: 182-182br>Lift (in): .325"/.325"
Lift (mm): 8.25/8.25

from what i have been finding...
who has a workshop manual for the dc5

[IDRC]

hoe my humble advice. put a parlour engine boosted
(1) it go cost less
(2) it go last longer
(3) it faster
(4) major factor less downtime

its a win win situation

[paz]

hoe my humble advice. put a parlour engine boosted
(1) it go cost less
(2) it go last longer
(3) it faster
(4) major factor less downtime

its a win win situation

that would work ..cept the man say no vtec no puss y

[IDRC]

hoe my humble advice. put a parlour engine boosted
(1) it go cost less
(2) it go last longer
(3) it faster
(4) major factor less downtime

its a win win situation

that would work ..cept the man say no vtec no puss y

well salt for he then.

buh i tend to disagree, no boost no pussi

so he might get some now

[JJ16]

haha ice u like reall sh!t u know, tha homo cud come rong me.


also i noticed alot of ppl say that hoe does drive he car like ah cn!t on a daily...

honestly d man REALLLLL take it down since his last "flip event", he hardly ever drives the ITR hard and dotish like he did the previous cars that he owned...

also, i would think that it is both the fault of the owner *brent* and the tuner..because the owner should have changed all necessary parts when doing the cam install...i never knew brent to spend small money on his car, so probably he didnt know or think he would have to get them changed.

as for the 2nr, he should take some of the responsibility because he was indeed tuning the car and by doing so he would have stated that he is able to tune the car properly..as well as knowing what he was tuning *upgraded cams,throttle body,ecu* and whatever else brent had, and he knew what was STOCK and what was UPGRADED in the motor, so he should have also taken that into consideration.

Also hardly ever would I see honda hoe carry his car into the 8000RPM zone while driving, plus to carry the car beyond the redline zone was a danger.

It would be also understandable if the tuner and the customer would now not see eye to eye on this issue because of the misfortunes that were encountered.

I do wish that both parties could come together and assist with the cause and just try and reach to something fair at the end of the day..

My advice is honda hoe, buy a car and dont interfere with it, just buy a car for what it is now, if u wanna build something, go either b-series or jus go sr20det and u know **according to blue ice** them corner shop engine taking REALL LICKS

[Cjruckus]

hoe my humble advice. put a parlour engine boosted
(1) it go cost less
(2) it go last longer
(3) it faster
(4) major factor less downtime

its a win win situation

that would work ..cept the man say no vtec no puss y

well salt for he then.

buh i tend to disagree, no boost no pussi

so he might get some now

He could ride the Sympathy Train now.

Kes, what do you want from the manual? I only have a hard copy though.

[Razkal]

kes_vtec, isn't the stock rev limit on a K20 around 8400-8500rpms? I'm asking because the trhead isa ctually informative and my knowledge of Hondas is pretty limited, plus honestly, Raymond's story sounds real "suspect" imo...

Reading through the thread i gathered:
-Raymond had the limiter set at 9200rpms at an earlier session (not the one in question)
-hoe didn't feel safe with that and you (kes) lowered it for him
-hoe showed Raymond a spec sheet for the cams he was GOING to buy and Raymond gave him the "ok" saying he should net close to 230whp with them
-hoe bought the cams, and installed them along with a spoon tb and took it to dyno

*another question: Wouldn't the stock valvetrain hold up REGARDLESS of the profile cams used AS LONG as the motor is not revved past the factory limiter?

-Raymond said they tuned the car running up to 8700rpms, with the stage 2 cams on a stock valvetrain.
-Car didn't pas the last dyno figure of 201whp, after 3 hours on the dyno and over revving the motor all this time.
-Engine went gugenheimer on the dyno and hoe is mad.

It just sounds to me, like although Raymond didn't run the car to 9K+ rpms on the stock valvetrain (i dunno anything abt running those revs on the car before the dyno or if they did it with the stock cams or not), he still went past the rev factory rev limiter ona stock valvetrain with aftermarket cams...not very smart on the part of a reputable tuner imo...

I also observed alot of fellas in here appear to have Raymond on a pedestal, like he is an EMS God, the man is good, damn good in fact, but not perfect, I see no reason to not believe the man may have made some mistakes and played a part in this mishap.

kes_vtec, Raymond.EMS, enlighten mih nah...did I make sense?

[BlueIce]

finally....white ev0 10 FTW



car looking mard

[JJ16]

Razkal, i must agree with you on this part for sure

I also observed alot of fellas in here appear to have Raymond on a pedestal, like he is an EMS God, the man is good, damn good in fact, but not perfect, I see no reason to not believe the man may have made some mistakes and played a part in this mishap.

[AllTrac]

man thats one of the main reasons i havent gone full emas yet, im still on piggy backs. I need to learn the full workings of one and how to do basic stuff and troubleshooting on it. So when i do pay someone to tune mines, i would know when they feeding me BS.

[Maserati]

Razkal, i must agree with you on this part for sure

I also observed alot of fellas in here appear to have Raymond on a pedestal, like he is an EMS God, the man is good, damn good in fact, but not perfect, I see no reason to not believe the man may have made some mistakes and played a part in this mishap.

perhaps it is because, some of the cars he's tuned have performed well on the track and made good figures on the dyno.
true about mistakes no one is perfect.

[JJ16]

Razkal, i must agree with you on this part for sure

I also observed alot of fellas in here appear to have Raymond on a pedestal, like he is an EMS God, the man is good, damn good in fact, but not perfect, I see no reason to not believe the man may have made some mistakes and played a part in this mishap.

perhaps it is because, some of the cars he's tuned have performed well on the track and made good figures on the dyno.
true about mistakes no one is perfect.

true....

I guess when you know about an engine it would be alot easier for the tuner to tune it...such as Sr20DET's and Rb's ....are these not the normal engines in which EMS tunes >> well in TNT atleast?? *8no doubt the man is good**

Not sure if he does others, I believed he tuned B***'s 18c turbo, but those of us who knows bu*** we would know that he knows about tuning atleast a little, so it would be easier i guess for him and raymond to relate to what is going on.

something as rare as a k20 I guess, seeing that not much ppl locally have "interfered" with them, probably the knowledge on this engine was limited to just statistics that were read online by the tuner or the customer and the lack of experience with this certain engine caused the problem.

just a thought.

[Razkal]

^Being on of the most sought after tuners locally, always in demand, always pressed for time, do you think honestly Maserati, that Raymond can afford to give the same time and patience to "small guys" like me, honda hoe etc like what he'd dedicate to cars like Aarons R32 GTR? Honestly.
Now i not bashing the man's work eh, everyone knows he could squeeze power out of anything with 4 wheels and a motor, but i had my car tuned by him, and tuned by another knowledgeable and very competent tuner recently, now both occasions, the car pulled wicked for what it was, very very good as compared to before the tuning session.
The difference i realise was that the other tuner took his time and had the car a notch above Raymond's tune, no bias here, just my experience.
My engine is an RB20ET, the ECU pinouts are EXACTLY the same as a CA18DET, now the management i use is an SAFC-II, regular business, nothing intricate, now from when Raymond tuned the car, he said (as related to my mechanic) that the TPS signal would be vital to getting a bit more power out the car (the TPS in my car never worked), and had it tuned @ 9psi doing 16*whp and 179wtq, the other tuner within 5 minutes of sitting in the car realised the sensor inputs were set for a CA18DET motor and not for mine, he said the TPS would play the biggest part in tuning for everyday drivability and that was also true, with the exact same setup the other tuner got closer to 170whp and 187wtq, with much smoother delivery and nice flat torque curve....afterwards we realised the turbo manifold/turbo gasket was cracked and that was why boost dropped off at higher rpms, otherwise the car would have put down a bit more.

I'm just saying that the man is good, but its definitely not impossible that he was a bit careless and contributed to hoe's dead engine. because although he didn't "blow up" my motor, he sure as hell didn't take the time to realise the sensor inputs were wrong and smoothen out the torque curve etc...another thing was that i paid for three hours of dyno time with Raymond (i regret not being there to ask questions and see the actual tuning though, had exams at that time) and did one hour tuning with the other tuner and got much better results, and i feel comfortable with what was done and how it was done.

Just my $0.02

[BlueIce]

Razkal, if you dont mind me asking

who was the other tuner?

[Razkal]

^Senor dry aka Richard.

[kes_vtec]

Razkal,
this is my take...
rule ONE: anything that can go wrong WILL go wrong.
i KNOW that hoe planed to do a 100k service at the start of the this year. it was not done...
he did have a issues with the first rev limit, i did drop on his request. this shows the he has grown... he he does ask about parts for from buying.. and not from just one person... i did not know about the cam, just the TB"

the cams that he does have i have not seen so i am not going to comment...
i will say... i don't care once you go to any stage 2 cam and +, put springs and retainers in, even if you are not going tuh swing the rpm (based on rule one) and the cam lobs will have a higher acceleration on the valve.

i did question that the same HP was made, this makes no sense, unless the gains of the throttle body where minus from the cams.... i will need to see the first dyno run to comment on this, but even a new tuner can make even 5 hp from a cam upgrade... from the motors i have done the install before tuning have added no less than 7hp with the old map.
this is my first main question...

next
i am hear that the motor was sent to 9000+ for 3 hr...
i have a *bad* habit, once i fine that a tune is not goin as plan "audi that is it pull the car off"
how i will point tow figures here
hoe, i stand understand that u ask the man to tune the car i you went on his trust, as much as i will like to point the to you i can't...
as i it bring to mind, i tune my cuz car, for the first time last month
"kes what u need"
"just bring the car we go lime"
"nah i will drop the car for and i do wah you have to do call me when your done"

simple fact that he trusted his tuner...

how i think that that tune should have stop the minute the car mad the same hp have 5 pulls, questions ask about what was placed in the motor and need to be verified...


Fact is that motor was to make power on the first pull if not by fifth...
even if it was swinging to 9000 with cams without upgraded valve springs
FACT
the Tuner not the owner, should have a BIG question about this seeing that 2 plus 2 was adding up to 2...

there are really two questions here:
Cams not making power
Tuner for not questioning...

i can't see hoe getting the put down on this...
as things where going wrong from the start...

as for the motor been swing to 9200 for the three hrs is that so???

[crazybalhead]

Hindsight is always 20-20 eh Kes.

I find averybody real lackaraying the man business on the forum. I would be mortified if my business was posted up like this.

[Razkal]

^Yeah but i sure you'd want "justice" if your motor, especially an expensive one like the K20 went kaput on the dyno.

kes, thanks for the info man, i would agree on springs/retainers/valves once aftermarket cams go in, but i thought the tuner should have a little more sense in knowing not to rev the motor past stock limiter with stage 2 cams, especially after what you said about the aftermarket cam lobes having higher acceleration on the valves.
A tuner should be even more careful and cautious than the owner of the car, because its his reputation at stake, atleast thats what i think or seems most logical from the tuners perspective.

[SR]

9000 rpm for 3 hrs........................sigh


mines still running strong more than 2 years now

and it still stock

[B20VTEK]

Razkal,
this is my take...
rule ONE: anything that can go wrong WILL go wrong.
i KNOW that hoe planed to do a 100k service at the start of the this year. it was not done...
he did have a issues with the first rev limit, i did drop on his request. this shows the he has grown... he he does ask about parts for from buying.. and not from just one person... i did not know about the cam, just the TB"

the cams that he does have i have not seen so i am not going to comment...
i will say... i don't care once you go to any stage 2 cam and +, put springs and retainers in, even if you are not going tuh swing the rpm (based on rule one) and the cam lobs will have a higher acceleration on the valve.

i did question that the same HP was made, this makes no sense, unless the gains of the throttle body where minus from the cams.... i will need to see the first dyno run to comment on this, but even a new tuner can make even 5 hp from a cam upgrade... from the motors i have done the install before tuning have added no less than 7hp with the old map.
this is my first main question...

next
i am hear that the motor was sent to 9000+ for 3 hr...
i have a *bad* habit, once i fine that a tune is not goin as plan "audi that is it pull the car off"
how i will point tow figures here
hoe, i stand understand that u ask the man to tune the car i you went on his trust, as much as i will like to point the to you i can't...
as i it bring to mind, i tune my cuz car, for the first time last month
"kes what u need"
"just bring the car we go lime"
"nah i will drop the car for and i do wah you have to do call me when your done"

simple fact that he trusted his tuner...

how i think that that tune should have stop the minute the car mad the same hp have 5 pulls, questions ask about what was placed in the motor and need to be verified...


Fact is that motor was to make power on the first pull if not by fifth...
even if it was swinging to 9000 with cams without upgraded valve springs
FACT
the Tuner not the owner, should have a BIG question about this seeing that 2 plus 2 was adding up to 2...

there are really two questions here:
Cams not making power
Tuner for not questioning...

i can't see hoe getting the put down on this...
as things where going wrong from the start...

as for the motor been swing to 9200 for the three hrs is that so???

according to the cam spec sheet, the cams are designed for more low and mid range power.
The tuner said, this was evident on the dyno.
peak hp numbers is not everything

did the motor have enough compression to make full use of the cams?


the cams have a higher lift, they open the valves more
was the valve train upgraded?

Where the clearances ever checked by the mechanic
what were the piston to valve and valve clearances?
was the valve train ever upgraded.

was the 100K Service done?


These points have to be taken into account.

Brent could clear up these questions to put himself out of blame

[illumin@ti]

^^ read the first 10 pages and edit that ,,,

Joined date June 26 2008?

[B20VTEK]

[Cjruckus]

^Yeah but i sure you'd want "justice" if your motor, especially an expensive one like the K20 went kaput on the dyno.

kes, thanks for the info man, i would agree on springs/retainers/valves once aftermarket cams go in, but i thought the tuner should have a little more sense in knowing not to rev the motor past stock limiter with stage 2 cams, especially after what you said about the aftermarket cam lobes having higher acceleration on the valves.
A tuner should be even more careful and cautious than the owner of the car, because its his reputation at stake, atleast thats what i think or seems most logical from the tuners perspective.

(devils advocate)
but its up to the driver of the car to make sure everything is in place so that the tuner can do his job. Hoe Skimmed on the install. Thats not Raymond or Kes Fault.

That's like going to the doctor and suing him because you got Mesothelioma. However you didnt tell him you snort 3 lines of Asbestos every day.

If its written on the box, "DO NOT INSTALL WITHOUT SPRINGS AND RETAINERS PART NUMBER: ***-PRB1" then its fault of the buyer. Hoe just had a lack of understanding of how it all worked, and he got pwned by Newtons Third Law... again.

[Kinday]

Hondahoe...sorry to hear about your engine. I can only imagine the discomfort.

Sounds to me though, like the chosen cams had too much of a steep ramp rate for the stock valvetrain. It happens...I ran into similar problems with my previous ride...I installed Crower 2's on the stock valvetrain and I would get valve float problems at an earlier rpm (even though Crower told me that I could use the stage 2 cams with the stock valvetrain once I stayed under the rev limit)...I didn't have the favourability of dyno tuning then so I just kept it under the problem areas of the rpm to avoid dangers. Pissed me off that I couldn't use the full powerband, but it was my fault for not fully upgrading and just going halfway.

Did you all have the old graphs for comparative analysis? See everything would feel similar up top but the damage was being done, then one day it would be too late....unfortunately that day was on the dyno while Raymond was doing the do. These errors are to be expected....once we start to get into the engine in search of more, we need to realize that the game won't always mean that we're going to be faster with the parts we choose. Sometimes we can go slower and sometimes it can be catastrophic if all the necessary tech procedures aren't done. I really feel for you.

I truly wish that you guys had discussed this in private rather than having the whole of the 3NE2NR community "UP IN YUH BIZNESS". Take stock and get your relationship with your tuner back in order...you guys can come to an agreement and understanding over the situation. Sh1t happens....tuners take note. Remember, if you intend to spend for more power be prepared to spend even more to repair errors. The blame game certainly doesn't fix the problem, just the egos.

Raymond's still an awesome tuner by the way.

[JJ16]

Cjruckus, i wont say he "skimmed" on the install...but even if he didnt do anything to his motor and it was still stock and he just had the upgraded ECU, to run your car past factory rev limit is MADNESS especially for such a long period of time

[kes_vtec]

according to the cam spec sheet, the cams are designed for more low and mid range power.
The tuner said, this was evident on the dyno.
peak hp numbers is not everything

now what you are saying here is important...
so the tuner did say from before that this was the case...
and if there where the case then there is no need for hc pistons...

then:
y swing to 9000 on every pull (if that is true)
who makes cams that will only make power from 0 tuh 5000 for honda...
(unless it is turbo cam)

more and more it sounds like a lack of communication between tuner and driver... (if what you are saying is true)

now i have been in that place of buying a cam not seeing it full power, one call to the maker fixed this, better, the maker asked what parts where in the motor, and said you ill make Xhp and we where really doing X, he then gave a list of combos to use... we picked one and run with it... we wanted higher cp, but local gas, but after tuning with the present cr, we where happy try with the suggested on the next build... note the cam still "worked, but was not it is best.

the tuner and onwer need to sit and go over the X,Y and Z, track what went-on... andf the next move...

with any new page here there is new *information*
it would be nice to know all the details...