The Religion Discussion

[bluesclues]

the same way we look at a machine as a dead thing and it has no rights. it just does our will and performs only what we desire or we say it is malfunctioning and trash/destroy it. is what you have to think about if you want to believe humans are mere robots. machines have no rights. they are slaves who cant object to their slavery. they do what they are told.

you should be starting to see who are the true slaves and sheep. and it isnt those who keep their imagination and creativity flourishing. those who focus on developing their logical mind alone, losing the practice that develops their creativity and their own will of conscience through imagination leave themselves open to be controlled by external entities. because logic can be hacked by human consciousness. overiding your conscious attributes with logic only makes you weaker mentally. does that make sense?

effectively, to enslave you all i have to do is find a way to make you rely on logic only. then i can hack your consciousness through various means. uploading directly through your logical mind the instuction i want you to follow.

see why it is important to being a complete human being by flourishing the imaginative and emotive parts of the human psyche. thats what faith does. it keeps the imagination watered. imagination being infinite can always draw strength where there seems none to be drawn from logic. when all logic marbles run out imagination can give you more. whether you view your imagination as real or not is another discussion by itself.

[Slartibartfast]

Lol @ the cartoon. Logic (and by extension science) are subjective in the same way that quantum physics (and by extension the big bang) are environmental science. After failing to understand the last simple paradox I presented I have hardly any hope that you guys would understand this. But please, don't let me interrupt your circlejerk.

in basketball a player doesnt make one shot from one height or distance standing upright. Ok the player is always moving a basketballer also doesnt have any distance measuring lasersNo he uses his eyes. a basketballer can make the shot while falling down or off balance in millions of different postures, spin it off the backboard left or right etc. Alright so the player is always movingsecondly, where does the programming come from for the basketballer to make each of 1 million different type of shots. each requiring a different calculation and taking into consideration the different factors as they arise on the fly.. like wind force and direction. a sudden knock on the hand to throw off the shot just before it is launch, These are called variable. They can be manipulated however they want but the end result will follow the same exact calculation every single timestill quickly adjusted for in a split-split-second to make the shot.Ok so main point is that they player is always in an unpredictable motion a robot just doesnt compare. it would require pages and pages of code, or otherwise, logical instruction and calculationYeah it will, so what? Sorry, were you expecting them to make it from dirt and then replicate that robot by taking a rib from the first one?. and also, we have the ability to score the ball without looking at the ring etc.Because the position is memorised, which a robot can also do

what you are talking about is one calculation for one shot from one distance at one specified height and in most cases ignoring wind velocity and direction which we dont take exact figures for as humans. we dont use any numbers, just manipulation of force and energy to our estimate. what happens if in mid step the robot is off balance and twists an ankle and the whole body goes down but still attempts to make the shot etc.Again, your point of unpredictable motion. What if we could somehow make a robot to keep a point steady, and from that point program the limbs attached to it to measure and calculate the shot and make it, like below

the robot will function on what it is programmed to do and no more. give it a new situation and the only way for it to learn is for u to turn it off, hook it up to the programming bench and upload new code. the same cannot be said for humans. we can program ourselves because we posses our own innate intelligence.. consciousness.. which a robot doesnt have.

Clearly you have not looked at the video. We cannot do those things YET. I laughable how many times various theists have pointed to human ignorance as a limitation only to be silenced a few generations down the road.

Man has flow with the birds and up to "heaven". Man has walked on a celestial body. Jesus thought making flavoured water was a miracle and kool-aid today is a common item. Man has done things that would make Jeses step back and say "Holy sh!t, that's impressive". What has religion given us that we could not have gotten otherwise?

[Altec55]

I believe the complete opposite Slarti. I was always the "smart" one, being able to rationalize everything etc, seeing life as just something we're passing through.

Then I found God and couldn't understand how I was living without knowing Him. I know God now as God, and not a concept. Belief in God is the only thing than has kept humanity moving forward. The unbelief in God and/or failure to follow His Word is what is keeping us back.

Well, some people need an emotional crutch and some don't. If it gets you through life, helps you to get out of bed every morning, I say more power to you. I don't grudge anyone holding their beliefs. I do find anyone using that belief to say that some imaginary fiend will torment me for life, that I am immoral for my disbelief or that they are better than me for their belief or patronizing to me, to be utter idiots for judging me for having a different opinion to their world view when mine ids based on fact and theirs is on fiction.

Lol, funny how you're feeling judged even though I not judging you eh. It's ok dude, not judging you, I was talking about myself there. Also funny how you think your opinion is fact based.

^^^Logic and morals are subjective?

From your perspective of logic and morality, yes it is subjective because it changes based on what you feel, think and most importantly, prove.

[bluesclues]

what humans use isnt memory. it's imagination. a symptom of consciousness which operates on the operations of chaos found in the quantum realm. a human playing basketball is never or almost never in his entire lifetime the exact position to repeat a shot. yes a robot will use the same formula to make the calculation every time. and it is still the formula we programmed into it. pages and pages of coding a robot to make these shots interacting with all it's limbs on the fly in a constantly changing environment will take hrs, if not days, weeks, months and as you say 'not yet'... years.. even decades. im pretty sure that a human can predict and bat away a robots shot more than 99% of the time. so now you also have to rpogram evasion calculations on the fly into the robot. the pages and pages of code is logical instruction. so dont downplay it. a coded program is a set of calculations.

so whereas you could work out a problem on paper in minutes for one particular shot with exact parameters. in reality the parameters are never exact unless you set it up that way exactly as the calculations demand. but on a basketball or football field with other conscious and freely moving entities there is little opportunity to replicate the exact conditions for the shot depending on the intelligence level of the players on the opposing team. they can analyse your objective and move to suit to prevent you from ever obtaining it to make the shot. making the robot's preprogrammed calculation formula mute.

i studied programming and robotics this is why i dont have to watch the video. i know the calculations that are necessary to take into consideration to solve the problem on paper. but the paper that goes into a real life situation like the programming of a robot's behaviour is not the same. the robot requires exact numbers from a gyroscope, a distance measuring laser, the force generated by its limbs via it's hydraulic system and method of propulsion, gravitational forces and mass of the ball. among other things. it's already becoming a tedious task to pursue. a human doesnt go through all that drama. neither does the rules which apply to quantum states.

you can argue that there is a logical system to quantum mechanics. but presently we only see it as chaos and can make use of a small amount of it's operations because it almost never if ever provides an exact figure for anything. test something now and it will say the answer is 46. test it 2 seconds later and it will say the answer is 1072. test again and it will give yet another number. but all the answers are correct. defying logic in every regard because it is not logical by design. expecting it to be logical given any amount of time is a pipe dream.

pi is an infinite recurring decimal. as a result, the whole of pi can never be used in logical process or calculation and it has to be rounded off. im sure you like most people, ignore the fact that rounding off an infinite recurring decimal is to create a new false figure to be used in calculation. ie.. NOT PI.

yet, this infinite decimal value is the one that nature provides us. i can tell you why that is so but ill keep that a secret for now.

[RBphoto]

I was talking about bluebottle and AdamB actually.

[Habit7]

What has religion given us that we could not have gotten otherwise?

That is for you to speculate. We currently live a world that has been shaped and fashioned by religion inspiration for the good and bad. However as I said before, the nations of institutiionised state atheism are nothing to emulate.

[bluesclues]

all them thing you claim are 'sooooo amazing' that man has done. made planes and walked on the moon etc. them thing not so amazing from my point of view. theyre accomplishments yes. but there are much more amazing things in this universe to be discovered.

u still ignoring something. we have to build and program robots. if ur a robot. then who built and programmed you? luck and chance?

[Slartibartfast]

What has religion given us that we could not have gotten otherwise?

That is for you to speculate. We currently live a world that has been shaped and fashioned by religion inspiration for the good and bad. However as I said before, the nations of institutiionised state atheism are nothing to emulate.

Lol, you love this strawman eh? Too bad this strawman was beaten to death already. According to your, Nazism is the same as atheism which is the same as what is happening is North Korea... but there aren't nazis in North Korea... did I miss out anything.

all them thing you claim are 'sooooo amazing' that man has done. made planes and walked on the moon etc. them thing not so amazing from my point of view. theyre accomplishments yes. but there are much more amazing things in this universe to be discovered.

I don't think you truly understand the difficulty behind those accomplishments. But that's your opinion. Personally I am amazed by it because I know I cannot come close to doing it for myself. Also, note that "amazing" technology is what is used to discover the "amazing things in the universe"

u still ignoring something. we have to build and program robots. if ur a robot. then who built and programmed you? luck and chance?

I'm ignoring these arguments in this thread because it has all been answered in the "Dinosaurs to birds" thread already. It's a short thread compared to this one so you should have no problem there.

[bluefete]

Slartibartfast: Man has flow with the birds and up to "heaven". Man has walked on a celestial body. Jesus thought making flavoured water was a miracle and kool-aid today is a common item. Man has done things that would make Jesus step back and say "Holy sh!t, that's impressive". What has religion given us that we could not have gotten otherwise?

Can a robot design itself?
Can robots think for themselves?
Or do they have to be programmed by a creator / designer?
Can an unprogrammed robot be intelligent?

Jesus was original in what he did! Can we make a man who was born deaf, hear? Can we make a man who was born dumb, speak?

Jesus would not be impressed by anything we do today.

Way back when in the book of Daniel, it was said that 'knowledge would be increased'. That is what we are seeing today.

[bluesclues]

everybody belly get full from 2 fish and a bread. illogical. hinting at quantum mechanics. there is simply not enough matter and nutrients in 2 fish and a loaf of bread to feed a thousand people.

talk to me when science can do that. eat yuh cake and still have it to eat again after lol

[Slartibartfast]

Can a robot design itself? Soon
Can robots think for themselves? Soon
Or do they have to be programmed by a creator / designer?
Can an unprogrammed robot be intelligent?
These last two point to humans being different from robots, which we already know as humans made robots. They don't however, point to God or a creator of man because... men a different from robots, this includes our origin.

Jesus was original in what he did! Can we make a man who was born deaf, hear? Yes Can we make a man who was born dumb, speak? Yes. and we are also developing technology to make someone who is born blind see. Please do not comment on what you don't know.

Jesus would not be impressed by anything we do today. You know this how...?

Way back when in the book of Daniel, it was said that 'knowledge would be increased'. That is what we are seeing today. Yes, considering that knowledge has been increasing for 99.999999999999% of our existence, then I would say this is not really that prophetic. Did he also predict that great wars will be fought or that many will suffer and die?

Bluefete I really don't think science is your forte

[Slartibartfast]

everybody belly get full from 2 fish and a bread. illogical. hinting at quantum mechanics. there is simply not enough matter and nutrients in 2 fish and a loaf of bread to feed a thousand people.

talk to me when science can do that. eat yuh cake and still have it to eat again after lol

Talk to me when there is actual proof that that happened.

[Slartibartfast]

Oh and once again my question gets sidestepped

What good has religion given us (that has advanced society) that we could not have gotten otherwise?

[RBphoto]

Oh and once again my question gets sidestepped

What good has religion given us (that has advanced society) that we could not have gotten otherwise?

Nine year old child brides.

[Slartibartfast]

Oh and once again my question gets sidestepped

What good has religion given us (that has advanced society) that we could not have gotten otherwise?

Nine year old child brides.

Hey she was very mature for her age and Mohammed didn't consummate the marriage until a whole two years later. She was well into her pre-teens by then.

[Habit7]

What has religion given us that we could not have gotten otherwise?

That is for you to speculate. We currently live a world that has been shaped and fashioned by religion inspiration for the good and bad. However as I said before, the nations of institutiionised state atheism are nothing to emulate.

Lol, you love this strawman eh? Too bad this strawman was beaten to death already. According to your, Nazism is the same as atheism which is the same as what is happening is North Korea... but there aren't nazis in North Korea... did I miss out anything.

What you are saying is a strawman, I never said nazism is the same as atheism. I am saying I can't think about us arriving where we are without religion because that is our reality.

It is you who need to prove that your alternate reality would be better.

I say "the nations of institutiionised state atheism" (not Nazi Germany) give is a picture otherwise.

[bluesclues]

Oh and once again my question gets sidestepped

What good has religion given us (that has advanced society) that we could not have gotten otherwise?

i answered that question a few pages back. rights endowed by God. or are you forgetting that is still the topic to a large extent? no man can take away your right because God gave them to you. but without God.. man giveth and man can take away. yet man has constructed a democratic society which aims at removing full power from any individual man. shifting and changing government representatives, distirbuting through independent ministries certain rights of decision founded on the principles of a higher power being responsible for the attribution of your existence, thus no man has the right to take your life. since you are not a machine, a puppet, or otherwise inanimate object.. you have the freedom of choice not to be ruled. a robot doesnt have that choice.

i can buy a toy car and mash it up till it is totally destroyed. it has no rights and no ability to object. nor any claims to recompense in a court of law or decision.

even in the case of a parent, fathering a child. the father can claim he gave you life so he can take it away. but your individual rights defend against even him having that right. because he himself as all living things owe their life to a higher power that is responsible for giving him life. without which he would have nothing to father a living child with.

[bluefete]

Can a robot design itself? Soon
Can robots think for themselves? Soon
Or do they have to be programmed by a creator / designer?
Can an unprogrammed robot be intelligent?
These last two point to humans being different from robots, which we already know as humans made robots. They don't however, point to God or a creator of man because... men a different from robots, this includes our origin.

That's a doozy of a statement.

So robots are designed and created by an intelligent human but humans are not designed and created by an intelligent God. Really???

Jesus was original in what he did! Can we make a man who was born deaf, hear? Yes (NO! - Where is the proof?)Can we make a man who was born dumb, speak? Yes. [color=#0000FF][b](No. Where is the proof?)and we are also developing technology to make someone who is born blind see. Please do not comment on what you don't know.[/b][/color]

Jesus would not be impressed by anything we do today. You know this how...? Because Jesus was around at the time of creation.

Way back when in the book of Daniel, it was said that 'knowledge would be increased'. That is what we are seeing today. Yes, considering that knowledge has been increasing for 99.999999999999% of our existence, then I would say this is not really that prophetic. Did he also predict that great wars will be fought or that many will suffer and die?

Bluefete I really don't think science is your forte

The more knowledgeable we become, the more ignorant we become.

[bluefete]

everybody belly get full from 2 fish and a bread. illogical. hinting at quantum mechanics. there is simply not enough matter and nutrients in 2 fish and a loaf of bread to feed a thousand people.

talk to me when science can do that. eat yuh cake and still have it to eat again after lol

Talk to me when there is actual proof that that happened.

Just because you are toting that science cannot feed 5,000 from 2 fish and a bread does not mean that it never happened.

[Slartibartfast]

rights endowed by God....

...even in the case of a parent, fathering a child. the father can claim he gave you life so he can take it away. but your individual rights defend against even him having that right. because he himself as all living things owe their life to a higher power that is responsible for giving him life. without which he would have nothing to father a living child with.

Uhhh, father's have killed their children before so religion does nothing to actually protect the child (Eg. Marvin Gaye's father was a Minister and killed him)

As for rights endowed by God, I also tackled this those pages back. Basically, the main points were, God can do nothing to protect someone's rights, and
A society can develop their own rights without any influence from God (and enforce them to) which will bring us back to Habit's argument which I tackled in his responses.

Are there any more examples or is your best argument that with God alone it is possible to be a completely moral cave man and nothing more.

[Slartibartfast]

everybody belly get full from 2 fish and a bread. illogical. hinting at quantum mechanics. there is simply not enough matter and nutrients in 2 fish and a loaf of bread to feed a thousand people.

talk to me when science can do that. eat yuh cake and still have it to eat again after lol

Talk to me when there is actual proof that that happened.

Just because you are toting that science cannot feed 5,000 from 2 fish and a bread does not mean that it never happened.

Just because it is written in a book does not mean it did.

[bluesclues]

everybody belly get full from 2 fish and a bread. illogical. hinting at quantum mechanics. there is simply not enough matter and nutrients in 2 fish and a loaf of bread to feed a thousand people.

talk to me when science can do that. eat yuh cake and still have it to eat again after lol

Talk to me when there is actual proof that that happened.

the proof is all around you. you eat a plant, gain energy, then excrete waste, which a plant eats and grows larger. that is the closed loop or efficient energy system. logically, if i have 1000 jules of energy in a container, i can only use 1000 jules of energy and output 1000 jules of energy in the form of work. but quantum operation allows for me to house 1million or billion jules of energy in a 1000 jule container. and if i ever run out and use nearly all, can get another billion jules out of thin air. nothing. illogical.

thus we are back to one of my original definitive statements. this reality is constructed out of both logical and truly illogical attributes. thus logic is unable and will NEVER be able to identify with the illogical side. only consciousness does that because it also possesses creativity and imagination. what it lacks it can imagine and basically, make real. which is an illogical calculation. divide by 0. or calculating with infinity being used in calculation without the program crashing. logic will crash by itself.

[bluefete]

everybody belly get full from 2 fish and a bread. illogical. hinting at quantum mechanics. there is simply not enough matter and nutrients in 2 fish and a loaf of bread to feed a thousand people.

talk to me when science can do that. eat yuh cake and still have it to eat again after lol

Talk to me when there is actual proof that that happened.

Just because you are toting that science cannot feed 5,000 from 2 fish and a bread does not mean that it never happened.

Just because it is written in a book does not mean it did.

So you choose to ignore the possibility that it is true! Good way to evade the issue.

Good going Mr. Scientist.

[Habit7]

Just because it is written in a book does not mean it did.

Says the man who constantly refers to Krauss' book to account for a universe from nothing

[bluefete]

Just because it is written in a book does not mean it did.

Says the man who constantly refers to Krauss' book to account for a universe from nothing

Which he conveniently uses as a replacement for the Bible!

[Slartibartfast]

What you are saying is a strawman, I never said nazism is the same as atheism. I am saying I can't think about us arriving where we are without religion because that is our reality.

It is you who need to prove that your alternate reality would be better.

I say "the nations of institutiionised state atheism" (not Nazi Germany) give is a picture otherwise.

Just to clarify, what are some examples of these states of institutionalised institutions?

[Slartibartfast]

...rights endowed by God. or are you forgetting that is still the topic to a large extent? no man can take away your right because God gave them to you. but without God.. man giveth and man can take away. ....even in the case of a parent, fathering a child. the father can claim he gave you life so he can take it away. but your individual rights defend against even him having that right. because he himself as all living things owe their life to a higher power that is responsible for giving him life. without which he would have nothing to father a living child with.

1. There are lots of examples moral codes being developed without God (outside of Nazi Germany and North Korea) and God cannot enforce his "given" rights. So there is no point.

2. Man does take away. Men have killed their sons (Eg. Marvin Gaye was killed by his father who was a minister). Where was God for this? What did God do?

[Habit7]

Just to clarify, what are some examples of these states of institutionalised institutions?

http://www.trinituner.com/v3/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=267363&hilit=Korea&start=18120#p8175986

1. There are lots of examples moral codes being developed without God (outside of Nazi Germany and North Korea) and God cannot enforce his "given" rights. So there is no point.

2. Man does take away. Men have killed their sons (Eg. Marvin Gaye was killed by his father who was a minister). Where was God for this? What did God do?

1. Lots of examples like...?

2. Where did God say that we don't live our lives as free moral agents who will all give account of our lives when we die and if we are perfect like Jesus we are rewarded with heaven and if we have sinned (like patricide) we are punished in hell?

[Slartibartfast]

Lol. I thought you weren't arguing about Nazi Germany or North Korea. All that was dealt with already

[bluefete]

Why do people constantly blame God for man's sins?

God gave us choice to do with as we please.

When a 90 year old man wants to marry an 8 year old girl, why blame God? Isn't that the exercise of choice?

When 'good' people are hurt by crime, isn't that choice? Why blame God.

When Job lost all his family and possessions, did he blame God?