The Religion Discussion

[Slartibartfast]

Anyway, at least ISIS is not as bad as the Christian God. I mean, he did drown the entire world because people weren't following his teaching. ISIS is just terrorizing a couple of countries.

[Habit7]

Anyway, at least ISIS is not as bad as the Christian God. I mean, he did drown the entire world because people weren't following his teaching. ISIS is just terrorizing a couple of countries.

...and in so saying you justify the actions of ISIS.

Because while the Bible differentiates between the merciless shedding of blood by man from the just execution of justice of the Creator on His rebellious creation, you equate ISIS actions as the fiat of God.

Thanks for egging ISIS on, my Christian brothers under persecution wish you would stop though.

[Slartibartfast]

So everyone except Noah and his family were sinners to a point where they deserved death? You have any proof of that besides a blanket statement in the bible. I am sure that some young innocent children would have died in that flood.

Now who are you to judge the actions of ISIS as merciless shedding of blood and not the just execution of justice. After all, they are following the actions of your God. Killing those that oppose them. But at least they have the mercy not to damn them to eternal hellfire.

Let's just be thankful that at least ISIS don't ask themselves WWJD because then things might end up a lot worse.

EDIT: Just so there is no confusion.I absolutely abhor the violent actions of ISIS, especially on the innocent. For this discussion I am just playing the "devil's advocate" to open the discussion up a bit.

[Habit7]

If you reject the Bible, why do you even believe there was a flood or Noah and his family?

How do you acknowledge the historical biblical figure Noah, but don't want proof from the Bible for the people's sinfulness?


P.S. God's judgment against sin didn't start and stop at the flood. It was and it is still going on when every person closes their eyes in death.

P.P.S. By what moral absolute do you condemn ISIS?

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Why were all the animals of the earth killed, save for two of each kind sent aboard the ark, when it was man who was sinful?

[RBphoto]

Why were all the animals of the earth killed, save for two of each kind sent aboard the ark, when it was man who was sinful?

I still think the fish got off too easy. When it is time for fire and brimstone, will we be be making a huge tank to save 2 of every fish, and look out of the aquarium as the world burns?

[Slartibartfast]

If you reject the Bible, why do you even believe there was a flood or Noah and his family?

I asking what you (as someone who believes in that) thinks about it. It is not about me.

How do you acknowledge the historical biblical figure Noah, but don't want proof from the Bible for the people's sinfulness?

You can give proof from the bible if you want but it will have to be well warranted. I'm just trying to see if God can live up to standards set by man.

P.S. God's judgment against sin didn't start and stop at the flood. It was and it is still going on when every person closes their eyes in death.

Yes I know that even now he is still killing and torturing innocent children as part of his "plan" (according to you). What I want to know is how is your God any better than ISIS. You claim your God has a moral high ground and everyone should strive to be like him/her but when a group of people actually try to be like him you condemn it. I am curious to find on what grounds you condemn it.

P.P.S. By what moral absolute do you condemn ISIS?

Do not onto other that which you would not want done onto you.

[Habit7]

What I think about it is the same as I said before. It is the just execution of justice by the Creator on a rebellious creation. Your opposition to this is no different than a death row convict thinking that though he is guilty, execution is far too severe for the good person he sees himself to be.

Why would you even want proof from the Bible? You acknowledged before you are ignorant of the bible yet you have already arrived at your uninformed conclusion about it. My proof would only confound your amorphous picture of the bible you already devised in your mind.

Aside from your misrepresentation of my position, God doesn't torture anybody on Earth. We are all born into variant circumstances which along to our actions redound to our benefit or our demise. However God justly punishes sinners in hell and rewards perfect sinless people (of which none but Christ exists) in heaven.
ISIS is not trying to be the like the God of the Bible. The God of the Bible says, " love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you (Matthew 5:44)" but I guess you won't know that for previously stated reasons...

While your Golden Rule might warm you little atheist heart, if you are consistent, you would know that it should have no binding implication on anyone outside of yourself. So since you believe there is no Creator governing creation, ISIS in their deluded theistic minds get their binding implications from Allah of the Quran who tells them: Allah has purchased the believers, their lives and their goods. For them (in return) is the Garden (of Paradise). They fight in Allah's Cause, and slay others and are slain , they kill and are killed. Surah 9:111

Your Golden Rule is no more binding on them than the Quran is binding on you.

Therefore you cannot condemn ISIS, you can only disagree with their actions.

[Slartibartfast]

First off, you are entirely right when you say the "golden rule" is not binding because someone must choose to follow it. Just like the teachings of he bible and the teachings of the Quran. I see no reason why I cannot condemn what ISIS is doing. It is completely against my morals. The binding action of my morals on them (or lack thereof) does not stop me from being able to condemn it in any way. The teachings of your God or his powers or whatever are not binding on anyone either because we all have free will and yet he is able to condemn us? ...hmmm

Now my question was what makes God's idea of justice any different than ISIS. Death row inmates aside, let's think of the children. He would have killed a lot of children during the great flood that had not yet reached the age of reason (and are therefore supposed to be innocent by default), all because others weren't following his teachings. This is very similar to ISIS except I believe they at least try to convert the children before drowning them.

The statement that God does not torture anybody on earth is just a flat lie. If he created us, then he has full power over the circumstances into which we are born. My thinking is that lots of kids starve to death. Starving a person is a form of torture. God put them in the situation is which they starved to death... therefore God tortures innocent children... oh no!

Also the God creating us to that we have free will but must fight to play by his rules or else he will torture us forever and ever sounds childish, immature and like something only a total muffler bearing would do.

At then end of the day, the person you believe your God to be is not a nice person at all. But he has reasons and a plan so I guess that makes up for all of it.

All of these arguments were assuming that God exists in an attempt to understand your reasoning.

TL:DR It's hypocritical to condemn ISIS and then worship a God that personifies their actions.

[meccalli]

TL:DR It's hypocritical to condemn ISIS and then worship a God that personifies their actions.

Dunno where you pulled that one out, but it makes sense to worship a God that wiped a world filled with people worst than isis. If you think they're vile and deviant, there's been worst and is yet to come.
As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

[Slartibartfast]

Key word being "if". "If the people were worse than ISIS". For which there is no proof except maybe a line in an old book saying "yup... they were bad" <--- paraphrasing of course.

However, if he did indeed wipe out the entire planet, then there would have been innocent children that were murdered by God as well (unless you can point out to me a point in history where there weren't any children). Now iirc, children are seen as innocent until they reach the age or reason. That means God killed innocent children because people weren't doing what he told their long lost ancestors to do.

So how do you guys condemn the actions of ISIS and then turn around to worship a mass child murderer?

[meccalli]

And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

10 And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.

12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

14 Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.

15 And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits.

16 A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it.

17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

18 But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.

19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.

20 Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.

21 And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them.

22 Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.


Does anything seem ordinary or normal in this passage to you? I don't even wanna post apocrypha that goes into detail, it already too wacky and explicit. There was a genetic issue on earth in addition to man's depravity, this is practically talking about demigods and human hybrids with other beings. If children are automatically growing into beasts of men that thirst after blood and all things vile. If is nowhere in sight. When wickedness grows to that point, it's my belief that the awaited time shall come and is drawing near, and the very perpetrators in the beginning are going to do their master's bidding again and the slate will be wiped again.

[toyota2nr]

Atheism is an opinion based on lack of evidence. Theism is an opinion based on face evidence. Which do you prefer?

As an atheist I agree with you but up to the point that the reality of the world does not equate to what is taught in religion. I am an atheist because after decades I have seen no evidence that there is any one all powerful God as portrayed in religious teachings. What we have instead is people who believe (faith) that there is a God but even they cannot point to one instance where a God has been proven.

[Habit7]

The God of the Bible is sovereign over all. Thus in the Noah's narrative you keep referring to, Noah can condemn the actions of his contemporaries with the conscientious law of God that is applicable to all men. Men can choose to reject it and receive the just punishment against the holy righteous God they willing abhor.

However you cannot condemn ISIS as an atheist because in your world your personally esteemed morals are no more valuable than jihad Joe's and the rest of the ISIS crew. Your insular morals are just preferences much like you favoring Neapolitan ice cream and Joe favoring rocky road. I can point to God's overarching law and say to ISIS, "murderers will not inherent the kingdom of God"(Revelations 21:8), you however can only say, WOW that's different.

It seems that in order to make your point you need to force your opinion of ISIS into every action of God. It's kinda like when PETA supporters say meat eaters are murderous and destroy families when we eat a slain chicken.

To liken God's judgement on a people through cataclysm to ISIS' mere men murdering for ideology is the erroneous divine fiat that encourages ISIS, it saddens me that you too think along those lines

You keep mentioning that God gave man free will but yet God is responsible for the state of starving children, you seem not to see your inherent contradiction. May I postulate that those with "free will" exercise it in bringing a child into the world that starves, or fails to provide an environment that's wouldn't allow for starving of their child, or by being part of a governance that run nations that results in their citizens starving? If I am to assume that as a child you didn't starve was it because of your natural instinct and endowed hunting skills? Or did you mother take up her responsiblity to suckle and nurse you and burp you when she was done?

A starving child is not undergoing the torture of God, that is responsibilty of its parents. The parents' irresponsibility is the cause of a starving child or even the irresponsibility of their leaders. Whoever it is, they will have to stand before a holy God and account for their actions, then is where the punishment starts not before. A child who has not attained a level of consciousness of their responsibility before God is covered by God's grace, I won't call them innocent. But the circumstances that you and I all live in are the result of the "free will" decisions taken by those who went before us. From Adam's sin that cause the fall to your parents actions, we live in a cumulative world in which we all must stand before the judgement seat of God to account at the end.

God can demand whatever He wants from his creatures, his punishment is eternal because He is eternally worthy. Your incredulity doesn't negate that reality. The clay cannot say to the potter, "why you made me in this shape?" The potter can make vessels for honor and dishonor, the clay is only passive in the process.(Romans 9:19-23)

Again we all come back to where do you get your idea of what is good, and who is nice? Again I maintain God is the standard of justice, goodness and excellence. Consider that probably because you are not just, good and nice, you cannot see God for who he truly is, and like the death row inmate you see yourself as no so bad and that evil justice system just wants to take away your nice moral life.



TL:DR
You cannot be an atheist and condemn ISIS, your morals are subjective.
You are the result of your antecedents responsibility, you are responsible for all your actions, your offspring will reap efforts of your responsibility, a God will judge all at the end.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

TL:DR
You cannot be an atheist and condemn ISIS, your morals are subjective.
You are the result of your antecedents responsibility, you are responsible for all your actions, your offspring will reap efforts of your responsibility, a God will judge all at the end.

except that he does not believe what you believe.

if you take his point of view that there is no God, then even your morals and those of jihad Joe are also man made and therefore subjective.

what makes your argument better than his? Your faith in it?

[ruffneck_12]

Atheism is an opinion based on lack of evidence. Theism is an opinion based on face evidence. Which do you prefer?

Why not both?

Agnosticism. right there in the middle

[Slartibartfast]

Let me break it down...

-I am against killing innocents
-ISIS kills innocents
-therefore I condemn there actions

-You say you are against ISIS' actions
-one of thos actions is killing innocents for lack of faith
-You worship a God who not only kills, but eternally tortures someone for lack of faith.
-Your God also kills innocent children
- Therfore you cannot condemn their actions and still support your God

What you are saying is that it is OK for your God to be worse than ISIS because he is God (potter has power over his clay and all thay) but then you go on to still refer to his morals as absolute perfection. See the contradiction?

Also, my morals are no less binding or real than yours. People do good and bad things independent of religious following.

[Habit7]

Com'on stop misrepresenting my position.

The God of the Bible justly punishes those who willingly chose to sin against His law. He doesn't "tortures someone for lack of faith."

James 2:19 says, You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!

Lack of faith is not the issue, justice is. Many people who believe in God are haters of Him

In my worldview a Sovereign God looks over ISIS and promises judgment for their actions. In your worldview you are only brought aware of ISIS' actions by the media and all you can do is wag your bony finger at them while they go on unpunished.

You keep try to force apparent contradictions where none exists but in the stretch of your mind. Kinda like the one you mentioned before that the virgin birth of Jesus by Mary is adultery is adultery on God's path. I don't know if that is just blasphemous or just plain dumb.




TL:DR God is sovereign over His creation and justly calls them to account for their actions. ISIS are disobedient members of that creation who will account too.

The actions of God and ISIS are on two totally different planes of reference.

[Slartibartfast]

The problem there is what is meant by Justice.

I am saying that according to your stance, God can do what he wants because he is God. He does not have to live up to the high moral standards set, enforced and followed by man.

Like right before Moses walked around the desert for 40 years, one of his plagues was to kill the first born son of everyone that didn't follow Moses' instruction, and then he turns around to tell Moses "Thought shalt not kill". Why didn't he just kill the Pharaoh (contradictory but he had no problem killing innocent children so...)? Why didn't he appear directly to the Pharaoh instead and skip the middle man? If God wanted his people set free why did he put all of that responsibility on Moses and then make them wonder the desert for forty years? Wasn't he encroaching on the Pharaoh's free will when he did all those things to force him to set the people free?

I am not misrepresenting your stance. I am stating that your God contradicts himself and his mysterious ways are downright inefficient and stupid. But all of that is apparently OK because he is God. You make it seem as though if you thought ISIS was God you would worship them to... albeit with a bit more "justification" arguments.

You only reason for condemning them therefore is that they are not your God. You cannot condemn their actions. I, and everyone else with internally reasoned morals can, and here is an example of how binding my morals are.

Let's take the example of a speed limit on the highway. Right now it is set at 80km/hr yet most people drive between 100-110. Ask anyone, what is the fastest speed they drive at and why. The answer must always be tied to some internal reasoning. For most, it is because they do not feel safe travelling at a speed above that. They set the limit for themselves and they obey it. Now here is where I believe your problem lies. That reason can change. A person can upgrade from a tiida to a real car and decide that it handles so much better they feel safe driving at 120 km/hr.

So under both of our morals, individuals can do whatever they want. But unlike you, I and other atheists are honest with ourselves. If I suddenly thought it was OK to murder children then I wouldn't condemn that part of ISIS. But as long as I think it is not OK I will condemn the actions of ISIS and same actions that were allegedly committed by your God (again... only assuming he exists for the sake of the argument).

[MG Man]

A person can upgrade from a tiida to a real car

PLAX!!!!!

[Habit7]

There is a difference between killing and murdering. Killing is the taking of a life, murder is the unjust taking of a life. Exodus 20:13 is translated in modern translations (esp. for your sake) "Thou shall not murder". God justly executes justice in him taking the life of sinners. ISIS murders.

God does not murder.

Therefore, because you misrepresent in the initial, your understanding of God's judgment against Egypt is flawed at the end.

I continue to maintain that your denial of an overarching objective law giver means that your golden rule is equal to ISIS' slay the unbelievers wherever you find them. Unless you are admitting that you are imposing your morals on them?

BTW it doesn't matter what you or I think we should drive at, 80kph is the speed limit, anything beyond that is breaking the law #objectivelawgivergovernment.

Stop thinking like a PH taxi driver.

[nareshseep]

1413295180672.jpg (66.59 KiB) Viewed 2593 times

[nareshseep]

There is a difference between killing and murdering. Killing is the taking of a life, murder is the unjust taking of a life. Exodus 20:13 is translated in modern translations (esp. for your sake) "Thou shall not murder". God justly executes justice in him taking the life of sinners. ISIS murders.

God does not murder.

Therefore, because you misrepresent in the initial, your understanding of God's judgment against Egypt is flawed at the end.

I continue to maintain that your denial of an overarching objective law giver means that your golden rule is equal to ISIS' slay the unbelievers wherever you find them. Unless you are admitting that you are imposing your morals on them?

BTW it doesn't matter what you or I think we should drive at, 80kph is the speed limit, anything beyond that is breaking the law #objectivelawgivergovernment.

Stop thinking like a PH taxi driver.

Buh dan your imaginary skydaddy is a gang leader...like in most initiations imaginary skydaddy tell a man.. You ..Abraham go and kill yuh son... And show me you loyalty to me as king over you. And the man dotish enough to go do it...

will you kill anything based on voices?

[Habit7]

No need to get emotional, keep the conversation civil please.

[Slartibartfast]

Yes the 80km/hr is the law in Trinidad but it does not stop me from driving at 120 km/hr and if I drive at that speed I cannot condemn anyone else that also does.

The same way I could drive at 120km/hr on the autobahn and condemn the actions of anyone driving at 300km/hr even though there is no speed limit.

Also, Just because something is the law does not mean it is right (like if section 34 was passed into law). Look up "civil seizure" abuse to see where the law can be abused.

So the only difference between murder and taking of life is justice. But your view of justice could not be more prejudiced. You believe it is impossible for God to be unjust because he is God but if you look at his actions objectively, he hardly measures up to some of the worst of man.

That means if you believed ISIS was God you would worship them and believe their actions just and that they were just taking life. The only reason you are against them and have problems with what they are doing is because you do not believe they are your God. The members of ISIS are made of of people just like you, except they believe that ISIS is just.

[Habit7]

Your speed limit analogy doesn't measure up because unlike God, our government is not omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. You might break the speed limit without the knowledge of the government but no man is hidden from God's sight (Hebrews 4:13). Break the speed limit and the police might not ticket you, but break God's law and you will account, every time.

You keep trying to drum up scenarios of God murdering and you can't. Now you are asking me objective. But apparently you haven't realize that I have been using the written record of the Bible which God claims inspired authorship to objectively disprove all the accusations you have lobbed at His prefect character. You however rely on you subjective feelings and you limit knowledge of what you think are the actions of God.

If God was to give us justice we wouldn't like what we would get. God's standard is perfection, a measure no one meets. We have all lied, stolen, disobeyed our parents, hated people and all of these sins show our rebellion against the good God who created us. God is just in sending us all to Hell.

But God being rich in mercy, chose to send His Son as a man to live the life we failed to live. Christ paid for the sins of those who would believe in Him baring their sin while He endured the just wrath of God during the cross. He died and rose again to new life just as those who put their faith in Him have a new life in Him. Therefore God is just and the justifier of those who repent and put the faith in His Son in that God justly punishes sinners, while God justly punishes Christ in the place of Christians who have received the prefect sinless life of Christ.

There is no injustice in God.

[Slartibartfast]

...but break God's law and you will account, every time.

any evidence?


As a literary exercise I will replace every one of your references to God with a reference to ISIS and others can decide if it sounds like something that somebody from ISIS would say.

You keep trying to drum up scenarios of ISIS murdering and you can't. Now you are asking me objective. But apparently you haven't realize that I have been using the written record of the Quran which ISIS claims inspired authorship to objectively disprove all the accusations you have lobbed at ISIS prefect character. You however rely on you subjective feelings and you limit knowledge of what you think are the actions of ISIS.

If ISIS was to give us justice we wouldn't like what we would get. ISIS's standard is perfection, a measure no one meets. We have all lied, stolen, disobeyed our parents, hated people and all of these sins show our rebellion against the good ISIS who created us. ISIS is just in sending us all to Hell.

[DELETED - Only because it is specific to the bible, but I am sure there is an Islamic equivalent] Therefore ISIS is just and the justifier of those who repent and put the faith in ISIS in that ISIS justly punishes sinners, while ISIS justly punishes matyrs in the place of true Muslims who have received the prefect sinless life of Mohammed.

There is no injustice in ISIS.

Of course there are some slight discrepancies because God is an imaginary creator and ISIS is real. But you get how similar the feel and tone of what you said is to what we see the members of ISIS saying.

Like I said, you have no place condemning those when you are just like them.

[Habit7]

Bill Maher thinks your logic is "naive and plain wrong"

[Slartibartfast]

Sorry no youtube in work... will check it out later though. Can you summarise his argument?

[Habit7]

Liberals need to stop comparing ISIS/Islam to Christianity. The Quran represents a total different orthopraxy than the Bible.