Apple wins Billion dollar lawsuit vs Samsung

[achillies]

Look at the games these Manufacturers Play

B. Firms Should Not Evade Their FRAND Obligations by Transfers to NPEs

As the FTC recognized in N-Data, a firm that acquires a patent subject to a FRAND commitment may violate Section 5 of the FTC Act if it knowingly breaches the FRAND commitments of its transferor or predecessor-in-interest and such repudiation was not anticipated before the market-wide adoption of the standard. Similar logic applies where firms make explicit promises not to stack royalties on their portfolio of SEPs and then split up the portfolio of SEPs among NPEs who seek royalties in violation of the transferor’s anti-royalty stacking pledge. For example, a firm that pledges that it will not seek more than x% royalties for its portfolio of SEPs no matter how many standards are licensed should not be permitted to sell its portfolio to NPEs— or anybody else—who then seek x% for each standard that is licensed, if the transaction poses the requisite threat of anticompetitive effects. This is especially true where the transferor maintains an ownership interest in the royalties collected by the transferee.

Consider, for example, the case of Nokia, which in 2010 announced that it would license its SEPs for no more than 2% of the sales price of a licensee’s end-user device “irrespective of the number of wireless standards deployed in such a device.” 31 In other words, Nokia committed itself to a royalty cap of 2% and no royalty stacking. This pledge, like others before it, was plainly designed to induce the adoption of Nokia’s technology. By providing a legally binding commitment on which implementers justifiably thought they could rely for protection, Nokia convinced implementers that they could safely manufacture products reading on Nokia’s IPR.

In September of 2011, Nokia transferred more than 1,200 SEPs declared essential to GSM, UMTS/WCDMA and LTE to an NPE named MOSAID Technologies Inc. 32 Because NPEs are immune from counter-suit and have no interest in cross- licensing or maintaining a good reputation before SSOs, they frequently charge royalties that are well in excess of the amount needed to incentivise innovation. Indeed, by some accounts the aggregate direct costs of patent assertion by NPEs amounted to $29 billion in 2011. 33

Implementers who adopted Nokia’s technology in reliance on Nokia’s 2% royalty cap/no-royalty-stacking commitment now face the disturbing prospect of having to pay whatever royalty rate MOSAID decides to charge. And all signs point to MOSAID charging a lot. According to MOSAID, the acquired patents represent “one of the strongest standards-essential wireless portfolios on the planet,” and will generate licensing fees on “$500 billion in mobile device revenues” over the next five years. 34 Indeed, Microsoft, which curiously has an ownership interest in the transferred Nokia patents, claims that this transaction “unlocks the considerable value” of the Nokia patents, which provides rather clear evidence that Nokia and Microsoft believe that MOSAID will be able to charge more for these patents than Nokia could prior to the transfer. 35 Even more disconcerting, manufacturers who refuse to accede to MOSAID’s royalty demands may have their products enjoined from entering the country under Section 337. 36

The MOSAID agreement harms implementers and consumers—and raises Nokia’s and Microsoft’s rivals’ costs—for two distinct reasons. First, the agreement enables Nokia to evade its 2% licensing commitments by outsourcing its patents to an agent with a greater incentive and ability to assert those patents aggressively. MOSAID is required to “monetize the Assigned Patents and to maximize the Royalty.” 37 MOSAID also must meet “royalty milestones” payable to Nokia and Microsoft, otherwise it must pay the difference through short fall payments. If the payments are not made, Nokia and Microsoft may force MOSAID to assign the patents to a third party. And, perhaps most flagrantly, MOSAID officials have confirmed that MOSAID will retain one third of the revenue generated by the transferred patents, leaving Nokia and Microsoft to share in the remaining two thirds. 38 Thus, Nokia maintains a direct, ongoing financial stake in these patents and can derive royalties in excess of its 2% commitment.

Second, the MOSAID agreement fosters royalty stacking by atomizing Nokia’s SEP portfolio. Even if MOSAID adhered to Nokia’s promise not to charge a royalty greater than 2%, that would still represent a 100% increase over the price that implementers expected to pay for a license when, relying on Nokia’s FRAND commitment, they decided to adopt the technology. Prior to Nokia’s transfer to MOSAID, manufacturers expected to pay 2% for a license to all of the patents in Nokia’s SEP portfolio. Now, even if MOSAID “honors” Nokia’s 2% undertaking, both MOSAID and Nokia can collect that 2% from alleged infringers. Implementers thus face the prospect of paying a 2% royalty for a license to Nokia’s (remaining) SEPs, and a further 2% royalty for a license to Nokia’s (transferred) SEPs. Especially in light of Nokia’s prior promises about limiting total per device royalties to "a modest single digit level,"39 that increase from 2 to 4% represents a significant -- and abusive -- repudiation of Nokia's commitments. And if this practice is allowed, there is potentially no limit to the degree to which a patentee like Nokia could divide its portfolio, leading to an ever more prohibitive royalty stack.

Nokia's repudiation of its FRAND commitments in this manner constitutes a clear violation of Section 5 of the FTC Act under the principles articulated in N-Data. As in N-Data, Nokia and MOSAID's conduct is inherently oppressive and coercive. Nokia and MOSAID's conduct threatens to raise prices for an entire industry and undermine the standard-setting process. Even more egregious than in N-Data, this is not a case where the repudiation is the mere unilateral decision of an opportunistic transferee or successor-in-interest. Rather, the abuse in the instant case is being effectuated by a joint scheme between the original FRAND-obligated licensor (Nokia) and a third party transferee (MOSAID) brought in to help the licensor creatively repudiate its FRAND obligations. This conduct should be condemned under Section 5.

TL;DR

Nokia/Microsoft charge no more than 2% for their patents and so, they get everyone to adopt their technologies, they then transfer the same patents to a patent troll, the patent troll sues people who adopted the patents and then many of them settle out of court, the patent troll then has an agreement with Microsoft/Nokia to pay them a sum of what they won, a lot more than the initial 2%,,,,,,,Naaassstttyyyy

Now onto everyone's favourite fair playing company

Second, despite Apple’s complaints to the contrary, MMI’s request for a 2.25% royalty on the price of a handset, tablet or similar mobile device implementing MMI’s SEPs is well within industry norms of reasonableness. For example, MMI’s approach is quite similar to the licensing policies of Nokia (which charges 2% of the end-device implementing the standard), Alcatel-Lucent (which charges 2% of the end-device implementing the standard), Ericsson (which charges 1.50% of the price of the end-device implementing the standard) and Qualcomm (which charges 3.25% of the price of the end-device implementing the standard). 20
Significantly, MMI did not immediately seek an injunction against Apple. To the contrary, MMI spent more than three years attempting to negotiate with Apple, which categorically refused to make a counter-offer. 21 It was only after Apple began its patent war against the Android ecosystem, suing patent-poor HTC in an effort to leverage a settlement or adverse judgment against MMI and other Android OEMs and making clear that it had no intention of paying FRAND royalties unless sued, that MMI first sued Apple in both district court and the ITC. 22

Third, it is clear that neither Google nor MMI have taken actions prohibited by N-Data, Rambus or any other relevant precedents: they have not repudiated their FRAND obligations with respect to the patents in suit, nor have they increased the rates that they are seeking above that which SSO participants believed they would have to pay at the time they included MMI’s technology as part of the applicable standards. Thus, the basic condition necessary for patent hold-up as described in the FTC’s June 6, 2012 Statement on the Public Interest is simply not met: MMI has not sought “high royalty rates and other favorable terms, after a standard was adopted, that [it] could not credibly demand beforehand.”23

So they are using FRAND patents without paying, meanwhile they are suing Samsung for pinch to zoom and rounded corners, the most valuable company on earth today

It is no accident that the firms that are petitioning the government to alter that successful status quo were not significant participants in the development of the standards in question. To the contrary, both Apple and Microsoft are dominant providers of proprietary operating systems who have invested little time and money in contributing cellular standard essential patents.13 Their clear incentive is to minimize the amount of money they pay to those who have invested billions in building open telecommunication protocols while maximizing the amount they can charge users of their own proprietary operating systems. These efforts, like prior rejected efforts to change ETSI’s IPR policy to disfavor innovative SEP holders, threaten innovation and the ability of SSOs to incorporate robust technologies.14

Ent it have men in here like to claim about the ROI on R+D, where are they now???

source: Groklaw

[Kronik]

^^love that post

[Stephon.]

[Sky]

*sigh*
What happened to everyone growing the best melons they can and lining up in the market...
If anyone come and tell me that's how it is, that's business, I will curse you.
Because while they fight that fight, instead of trying to make the best, see all that 2%, 1,5% and 3%?
WE PAY THAT, NOT THEM!

[Conrad]

*sigh*
What happened to everyone growing the best melons they can and lining up in the market...
If anyone come and tell me that's how it is, that's business, I will curse you.
Because while they fight that fight, instead of trying to make the best, see all that 2%, 1,5% and 3%?
WE PAY THAT, NOT THEM!

SHADUP!

The phone in meh pocket (WHAT I PAID FOR) gives me right to argue extensively how superior my company is to the alternative brand.

[kurpal_v2]

*sigh*
What happened to everyone growing the best melons they can and lining up in the market...
If anyone come and tell me that's how it is, that's business, I will curse you.
Because while they fight that fight, instead of trying to make the best, see all that 2%, 1,5% and 3%?
WE PAY THAT, NOT THEM!

SHADUP!

The phone in meh pocket (WHAT I PAID FOR) gives me right to argue extensively how superior my company is to the alternative brand.

My mourrrnee jump out DEY Dan

[sharkman121]

The truth is the Apple Iphone5 is a bit underwhelming, not because of the hardware mind you.....which is top of the line as usual.......but because of the lack of innovative IOS6 updates.

I'm personally disappointed with today's revelations despite my Iphone 4s being my preferred phone in my collection (I have an S2, S3, BB Bold 9900 and a Iphone 4s......the S2 & 9900 are for sale btw, PM if interested).

But that doesn't stop me from appreciating my S2 and S3....they are both VERY impressive phones and better in many ways over my 4s. However over time I've grown used to the iOS interface and find it more intuitive in many ways over Android....but that comes down to personal preference really.....which lends credence to my main point.

If I a stout Apple fan can honestly appreciate and prefer Android for many things, then Apple is trouble with the Iphone 5.....the game is a lot closer now than before.....and Apple did not come out guns blazing this round as they should.

In the background, many don't know it, but RIM is working closely with Google on porting BIS and BES platforms to Android.... BBM on Android would be the end game for Apple's dominance in many countries (Not US though).

In the next two years I foresee a market place split in the following way.

Apple - 20 to 30% (Not a huge drop in market share, but a drop nevertheless)
Android - 50 to 60%
Win8M - 10% (could be more, but time will tell)
RIM - <5% (if still surviving)

this guys post was well said. Despite all the shenanigans going on right now, this is the basis there are many many die hard apple fans but they are losing (very quickly) alot of ground to Samsung. I see a bit of panic has begun to step in. They have always been top notch ahead of other competitors, now theyre level at best.

[Damien]

Wtb s3

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

LOL @ the "panic"

as I posted in a previous thread - iPhone 5 is not just the phone you hold in your hand, it is part of a bunch of other things that support it.
the Lumia, S III and iPhone 5 are very similar spec wise.
Just the OS is different: Windows Phone, Android and iOS respectively.
It is great to know that consumers have a choice of 3 top phones with 3 different OS platforms to choose from. Choice is good!

What i think is going to make the difference here is the ecosystem.

Apple already has the AppStore and iTunes plus the "works with iPhone / iPod" that tons of 3rd party electronics come with including most new cars.
Then added to that the whole AirPlay thing which is leaps ahead of bluetooth sharing - AirPlay lets you share HD video also (listening to a song or movie on your phone and you show it on your TV with one click with zero setup) and AirPlay is now being offered on wireless speakers, A/V receivers, car stereos, HDTVs etc.

Wireless cameras, security and home automation systems work with iPhone and iPad more than they do with Windows Phone and SIII directly.

And then there is the tablet market that will create a "larger screen experience" for the phone users.Sure the Lumia will work great with MS Surface, and Galaxy SIII with a Galaxy Tab, but iPad has over 85% of the tablet market and 94% of the corporate tablet market according to Forbes and they have lots more to share with.

The iPhone 4 and 4S already syncs wirelessly to mac or pc without plugging it in while iCloud lets you share and securely sync everything.

So with all 3 devices almost the same, the battle will be with the ecosystem that supports the phone.

So while the iPhone 5 may have not had the massive tech jump that previous models may have had, over the past year the ecosystem has grown tremendously with more powerful AppleTVs, iPads and MacBooks that also use Retina and AirPlay and iCloud and AppStore etc etc and add that to SIRI, Apple Maps and great app support - THAT is what makes the iPhone 5.

[16 cycles]

you can have a sony TV / SGS3 phone (for example) and accomplish many of the tasks that apple ecosystem can....even an iphone and other non-apple media components can achieve the same result....

not sure why the need to have everything apple....

[RASC]

Simple^^^
Uniformity. Simplicity. Cleanliness and mild to strong ocd.
Ppl who live in a minimalist world love having everything matching. They prefer clean lines and a uniformed system. This is the appeal of an apple eco system. Microsoft has just figured this out also and decided to push full steam ahead with the W8 and WP8 integration. Its aesthetically pleasing to the eye might I add. I hate clutter and disjointedness, that is why apple and the clean metro UI of wp8 is so appealing to so many.

When you imagine an ios user, images of a Manhattan loft, with ceiling to wall windows, clean organized wardrobes, stainless steel appliances and modern contemporary furniture. Android on the other hand.. Conjure up images of an over weight nerd... Living in his mothers basement, plays world of Warcraft religiously... Maybe even a huge star trek fan. His fashion sense is still 5 years ago... And almost never attends cocktail parties or social end events.

See, its just as much about the image as it is the functionality. I know the above is not always so... But that's the image a casual observer might conjure up. Uniformity and minimalistic design just appeals to certain ppl more than others.

[achillies]

LOL @ the "panic"

as I posted in a previous thread - iPhone 5 is not just the phone you hold in your hand, it is part of a bunch of other things that support it.
the Lumia, S III and iPhone 5 are very similar spec wise.
Just the OS is different: Windows Phone, Android and iOS respectively.
It is great to know that consumers have a choice of 3 top phones with 3 different OS platforms to choose from. Choice is good!

What i think is going to make the difference here is the ecosystem.

Apple already has the AppStore and iTunes plus the "works with iPhone / iPod" that tons of 3rd party electronics come with including most new cars.
Then added to that the whole AirPlay thing which is leaps ahead of bluetooth sharing - AirPlay lets you share HD video also (listening to a song or movie on your phone and you show it on your TV with one click with zero setup) and AirPlay is now being offered on wireless speakers, A/V receivers, car stereos, HDTVs etc.

I can do this with my S2 any brand WiFi router and any brand Television that can connect to a network, again you tout eco-system when it can be done a lot easier and with a lot less equipment, than Apple eco-system

Wireless cameras, security and home automation systems work with iPhone and iPad more than they do with Windows Phone and SIII directly.

I have never tried this so I really cannot comment

And then there is the tablet market that will create a "larger screen experience" for the phone users.Sure the Lumia will work great with MS Surface, and Galaxy SIII with a Galaxy Tab, but iPad has over 85% of the tablet market and 94% of the corporate tablet market according to Forbes and they have lots more to share with.

Your years in the "eco-system' has spoiled you, Android devices work well in conjunction with any device, regardless of brand or OS.

The iPhone 4 and 4S already syncs wirelessly to mac or pc without plugging it in while iCloud lets you share and securely sync everything.

It seems you may have forgotten who had the ability to wirelessly sync first, I never had to to plug in any of my Android devices to sync Contacts, Calender, Email or apps, I can even remove any or all of the above without ever touching the device.

So with all 3 devices almost the same, the battle will be with the ecosystem that supports the phone.

All three devices are not the same, do not kid yourself

So far all of your examples don't speak about an eco-system, in an ecosystem, all the parts work together for the benefit of the entire system, with each part contributing for the well being of the whole, besides your money, what have you contributed to the "ecosystem" IMO what you have described is just consumerism, they provide, you consume

Ecosystem: An ecosystem is a community of living organisms (plants, animals and microbes) in conjunction with the nonliving components of their environment (things like air, water and mineral soil), interacting as a system.

Consumerism: Consumerism is a social and economic order that encourages the purchase of goods and services in ever-greater amounts.

Look at the definitions, you decide

So while the iPhone 5 may have not had the massive tech jump that previous models may have had, over the past year the ecosystem has grown tremendously with more powerful AppleTVs, iPads and MacBooks that also use Retina and AirPlay and iCloud and AppStore etc etc and add that to SIRI, Apple Maps and great app support - THAT is what makes the iPhone 5.

^^^^^ As opposed to what, Apple has the only "ecosystem" that has grown?
What you describe here has happened in every company in the mobile space, doesn't growth happen every year, I have news for you, next year you're going to see even powerful AppleTVs, iPads and MacBooks, SIRI would also get better and so will the app support, but that happens on Android also, and it's going to happen in WP8, I have had conversations with many app devs on Twitter, Google+ and through email, and lets not forget about XDA, your point is moot

And on another note, if the ecosystem is so good, why do users Jailbreak???

Do you live under the rock or in it?

[16 cycles]

times changing.....given the 10 million plus sgs3 handsets sold......either the SGS3 broke that image or 'casual observer's' concept of the android fan might be skewed....

[Sky]

achillies, you're biting off more than you can chew there.
Despite his slight to moderate fanaticism about apple, Duane uses his stuff well. *remembers"gutz" setting*.

Duane, again, if you're speaking about an ecosystem, which home OS is more prevalent? win7 or Mac OS? It's nice to have a full apple artillery, but count the desktop out for most when trying this. Now how much does that affect the ecosystem? Serious question, I don't know much about the apple side.

[pete]

From my experience, iTunes on a PC sucks ballz

[nemisis]

From my experience, iTunes on a PC sucks ballz

that's everyone's experience

[pete]

Ways, from how they've been talking I thought maybe since I stopped using iTunes a little under a year ago they've made it better. It must be awesome on a mac though.. right?

[nemisis]

Ways, from how they've been talking I thought maybe since I stopped using iTunes a little under a year ago they've made it better. It must be awesome on a mac though.. right?

my pc has a 7.2 rating and I use iTunes to manage the iPad but that's all I use it for, I use Zune for everything else since my phone is windows

[S_2NR]

From my experience, iTunes on a PC sucks ballz

i actually like itunes, very organised.
might have gotten used to it since ive been using it almost 10 years now since i got my first ipod.

[maj. tom]

here come the Apple lawyers...

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

And on another note, if the ecosystem is so good, why do users Jailbreak???

Do you live under the rock or in it?

thank you for your contribution

jailbreaking has been greatly reduced per iOS device over the years - most people jailbreak today so they can get free apps. And jailbreaking is to allow the device to do something the manufacturer "locked" out, clearly not something the device is totally incapable of.

Most of your anti-airplay rant dealt with DNLA, which the iPhone is capable of with apps that support it - however AirPlay is FAR smoother for the very reason that the devices are streamlined for each other - which is why developers of apps such as VEVO, Pandora, Netflix etc all use AirPlay instead on the iOS devices. No network ready HDTV (no need to buy a new TV) or DNLA compliant devices needed. AppleTV is $99.

Anyways it seems you guys are really passionate about bashing apple based on the amount you post in the apple threads. But to me after all this talk and attempts at convincing, it seems the sales numbers are still very high.

Dont get me wrong, when the next best thing comes along I'm ready to jump ship.
I'm a daily windows user, so WP8 looks very tempting. I am a Google fan, but Google Apps work flawlessly with iOS as well ,so no need to an Android device.

And thanks for the vocab lesson, I'm going to feed my iPhone now.

[achillies]

And on another note, if the ecosystem is so good, why do users Jailbreak???

Do you live under the rock or in it?

thank you for your contribution

jailbreaking has been greatly reduced per iOS device over the years - most people jailbreak today so they can get free apps. And jailbreaking is to allow the device to do something the manufacturer "locked" out, clearly not something the device is totally incapable of.

Most of your anti-airplay rant dealt with DNLA, which the iPhone is capable of with apps that support it - however AirPlay is FAR smoother for the very reason that the devices are streamlined for each other - which is why developers of apps such as VEVO, Pandora, Netflix etc all use AirPlay instead on the iOS devices. No network ready HDTV (no need to buy a new TV) or DNLA compliant devices needed. AppleTV is $99.

Anyways it seems you guys are really passionate about bashing apple based on the amount you post in the apple threads. But to me after all this talk and attempts at convincing, it seems the sales numbers are still very high.

Dont get me wrong, when the next best thing comes along I'm ready to jump ship.
I'm a daily windows user, so WP8 looks very tempting. I am a Google fan, but Google Apps work flawlessly with iOS as well ,so no need to an Android device.

And thanks for the vocab lesson, I'm going to feed my iPhone now.

Good point on the price of an Apple TV versus buying a TV that is DLNA compliant, but I don't get the far smoother comment, what smoothness are you referring to exactly, I have streamed Blu Ray Rips over my LAN connection, I have streamed content in HD from my phone to the television, please expand on that point, and it was not an anti airplay rant, it was merely pointing out what you speak of is easily done outside of the Apple ecosystem, emphasis on easy

The sales numbers will always be high, why is that always a retort of an iUser, I can carry on a discussion without saying that Android has the highest market share, can you???

My point is and will always be iOS has zero advantages over any other choice of mobile OS, whether you want to take the ecosystem into consideration or not....

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Good point on the price of an Apple TV versus buying a TV that is DLNA compliant, but I don't get the far smoother comment, what smoothness are you referring to exactly, I have streamed Blu Ray Rips over my LAN connection, I have streamed content in HD from my phone to the television, please expand on that point, and it was not an anti airplay rant, it was merely pointing out what you speak of is easily done outside of the Apple ecosystem, emphasis on easy

I've used an SII, Note and other devices that use DNLA including a NAS and PS3 to stream media and it always take a lil while to connect, handshake issues, works after a couple retries, TV OS is slow and I've never gotten mirroring to work with a phone and DNLA. AirPlay is technically already setup from factory so it just works immediately - but that is an advantage of developing for any device vs developing for only your own devices.

The sales numbers will always be high, why is that always a retort of an iUser, I can carry on a discussion without saying that Android has the highest market share, can you???

why not talk about it? market share and sales are excellent markers of a products continued performance.

Android has alot of different versions and manufacturer specific "flavours" so it is understandable that in its entirety Android has more market share, even TV's run a flavour of Android now.

its kinda like the fact that Samsung Galaxy sales are probably very close to iPhone sales if not more.
But Samsung has had 36 models of the Galaxy phone since 2010 and Apple has had only 6 models of the iPhone since 2007.

My point is and will always be iOS has zero advantages over any other choice of mobile OS, whether you want to take the ecosystem into consideration or not....

I see the fragmentation and million flavours as a disadvantage - there is a learning curve when switching from Motorola or HTC to Samsung and vice versa because of this, however every iOS user, iPad, iTouch or iPhone can pick up any other device for the first time with no feeling of confusion.

and again I think we should take everything into consideration, including ecosystem - nothing operates in a vacuum (well except for the Lumia right now lol)

[Swisha]

all this arguing bout which phone is the best and which OS is the best is a waste of time.

everyone has different needs and what may work for u doesn't necessarily work for everybody else.

i've said it before and i'll say it again, with all the competition between these companies, they push one another to make their products better and it's we the consumers who benefit at the end of the day.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ yup we said that earlier

the discussion is about the things that make it better.

[achillies]

I have not encountered any issues with DLNA except for the Television that may not have the codec for a video that I tried to play, and I have instructed people on how to do this in a couple of text messages, but I see the ability to use any device of the users choice as the advantage instead of having to buy all your products from one company, it limits you to what they have allowed or what they have thought of, IMO it's better when I can see a particular wireless router from Asus, a phone from Samsung, a television from Sony and I can diversify my products without affecting my overall setup

Apple also has flavours of the OS, even though it carries the same version number, and when three different phones can run the same version of the OS but they all have different features available to them, what do you consider to be more confusing, we all run iOS 5 and have different features available or I have version 2.3.7 and have these features and you run 4.1.1 and have those features.

Although Samsung has different models of the Galaxy, they are all one family of device, it's not a valid comparison as the models differ by carrier for the allowance of certain features but although the internals may be different, it is still a Galaxy S 1, 2 or 3, users buy what is available to them by carrier or they buy based on the carrier they are going to use, when sales are counted, it's not going to be the Verizon S3 versus the International S3 versus the AT&T S3, it is just the S3, so you're being quite disingenuous there, if you can't get that thought around your head, answer this, are the sales numbers of the iPad separated to show the WiFi version versus the cellular version, no it is not, it is the iPad and it is one family of device, though the internals are different.

The different flavours of Android you see as a disadvantage can also be seen as a strength, Android is a platform for users and manufacturers to express themselves, have you ever heard of an iPhone user complaining of boredom, asking for a change, fed up of the same thing over and over, many iUsers are asking for a change, are they not, so while you say that different flavours are a disadvantage, selling millions of devices that are essentially the same for the past few years is also a disadvantage, there is no one size fits all, there is just contentment because better cannot be done, the users who want the change I'm guessing will not mind learning some new stuff if they get that change, change is good, but here we have people that are advocates of stagnation, all of a sudden, it's a good thing

[achillies]

^ yup we said that earlier

the discussion is about the things that make it better.

It's not about what's better, it about what is better for you or me or him or her

I have recommended Apple devices to users already, just today someone called to ask if he should get a Playbook or an iPad 3, that was easy

I have a co worker who wanted an S2 badly, he has always been fascinated with my phone, always asked to use my phone whenever he is up at my office, he was torn about which to get, the 4S or the S2, after hearing what he had to say, and after he told me how he has everything tied up in iTunes because of his iPad, I recommended that he get the 4S, not because the 4S is better, but because it was better for him, he does not have the phone he wants, he has the phone he had no choice but to buy, he was not prepared to leave the ecosystem, and that IMO is crazy, I can't live like that, now he is in the same quandary again, with the same issues, he badly wants the S3, apparently he has access to someone who owns one, can he buy it, yes, would he, no he can't

[Stephon.]

Duane darling can you rename this this "Samsung vs. Apple" it seems fitting
Thanks boo.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ yup we said that earlier

the discussion is about the things that make it better.

It's not about what's better, it about what is better for you or me or him or her

I have recommended Apple devices to users already, just today someone called to ask if he should get a Playbook or an iPad 3, that was easy

I have a co worker who wanted an S2 badly, he has always been fascinated with my phone, always asked to use my phone whenever he is up at my office, he was torn about which to get, the 4S or the S2, after hearing what he had to say, and after he told me how he has everything tied up in iTunes because of his iPad, I recommended that he get the 4S, not because the 4S is better, but because it was better for him, he does not have the phone he wants, he has the phone he had no choice but to buy, he was not prepared to leave the ecosystem, and that IMO is crazy, I can't live like that, now he is in the same quandary again, with the same issues, he badly wants the S3, apparently he has access to someone who owns one, can he buy it, yes, would he, no he can't

why can't he?

I don't use iTunes other than to put music on my iPhone.
the issue is not that "my music is in iTunes so I HAVE to use an iPhone", the issue is I want to use an iPhone and iTunes is the software used to manage the media there. There are other apps to manage music on your iOS device too, if you really don't want to use iTunes.

The ecosystem is there, but you are not forced to use it.
I have a PC and I also share files via Google Drive and Dropbox to my iPhone and iPad.
I admit that proprietary stuff works better together.

I think you are making this far more complicated than it actually is or needs to be.

I hope you are not one of those IT people who over complicate their duties just so that the company thinks your role is vital.

[EFFECTIC DESIGNS]

Anyone remembers the video of the reporter going around cities holding a iphone 4 in her hand. And showing it to everyday apple consumers and telling them here is the new iphone 5 what are your comments on this?

And the apple consumers were like wow it feels so much lighter, and its so much faster than the iphone 4, OMG dude its like so much better with graphics and its even slimmer and bigger. They have really come a long way. I am so buying this as soon as it releases.

And they were like can we buy your iphone 5? and the reporter was like um no its a beta device I am not allowed to sell it to the public and one girl said I will pay you any price.

I hear that reporter resign now yes.