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This PS3 thing going too far...

this is how we do it.......

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Postby scientist » November 20th, 2006, 10:49 am

Smokey wrote:scientist, once again, even if u are able to output at 1080p, its upscaled. Even the old xbox could have done that :(


Not so...some 360 games run 1080 natively...PS3 upscales 480i to 1080i....sony said they will try to release the bug fix for it soon, it is supposed to try upscale 720p to get 1080i. i Currently use my VGA cable to watch my games in HD on my monitor. Only games i've seen upscale are the ones that do not support 1080p. Just like the Launch titles for PS3 are 720p, because developers are having frame rate jitters getting their games running at 1080....

As i said, the 360 suited me better, Better 3rd party game support, Xbox Live, control suits my style of game play better, Price is well within my budget.

My decision was made to buy after i got hands on time with both systems. After going from the robust network interface of Xbox live, and the whole gaming experience, Sony's free offering just falls way short for me as a gamer. I mean you can't even invite your friend to play a game if you they are not online playing that same game at the moment, or check what games they have in their library to see if u can play against them. Plus Microsoft has always made it mandatory for all games to support voice chat, and you are given 8 channels to have private chats. You do not even need to be on a game to chat with your friends....another feature they failed to implement. Oh yeah i 4got, there isn't even an announcement for a headset...something i also go free.

At the end of the day....buy what suits your pocket....i gave both systems a fair chance....The one iw anted to win me over, disappointed me...so i moved ship.

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Postby Halfbreed07 » November 20th, 2006, 11:48 am

as high as 3,000 usd on ebay yo.
the hype sony getting out of dis is priceless fellas beleive dat

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Postby Strauss » November 20th, 2006, 11:50 am

No rumble... :(

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Postby scientist » November 20th, 2006, 12:21 pm

^^yeah that too...that coming soo handy in games it not funny....esp the shooters. and racing games....like the wheels with force feedback+rumble...imagine PGR simulates bumpsteer with the mixture of those two

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Postby SUB » November 20th, 2006, 8:22 pm

the old controllers can also work with the Ps3, so therefore u have the best of both worlds :wink:

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Postby scientist » November 20th, 2006, 10:35 pm

where u goin plug the old controllers?

they have smae design so PS3 controllers can work on PS2 games...not PS2 controllers on PS3...there is no control port for PS2 controls

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Postby RASC » November 20th, 2006, 10:44 pm

scientist wrote:where u goin plug the old controllers?

they have smae design so PS3 controllers can work on PS2 games...not PS2 controllers on PS3...there is no control port for PS2 controls


correct...

where you heard that from SUB?

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Postby SUB » November 20th, 2006, 10:46 pm


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Postby RASC » November 20th, 2006, 10:52 pm

stueps...

This thing rocks!!
Reviewed By: Enidatsun Date: 10/20/2006 9:01:50 AM
This thing is great and gives you teh best of both worlds. Now the PS3 controller has the weight of the additional PS2 controller and the rumble, while my PS2 controllers have full motion sensing capabilities! It's like coffee and Bawlz at the same time! I'm going to buy 5 more when they come out.


gimme a break...this clown wrote this all the way in october-long before the launch!

coffee and bawlz :arrow: WTF

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Postby SUB » November 20th, 2006, 11:01 pm

HUTRINI wrote:stueps...
this looking like some bogus shiet :fist:


The guys up at PS3 Fanboy were able to sight a mysterious "PS3/PS2 Controller Adapter" from Pelican to be sold in EBGames come December 1 for US$4.99. But more than that, there's no info of what it actually is. There's no picture, even (at least not when we went there to look at it). But PS3 Fanboy thinks that it could be an add-on accessory that will simulate a Rumble feature for the PS3 (and PS2) controller.


Taken from there:
http://www.qj.net/Let-s-get-ready-to-ru ... /aid/70074



If u look at the first reply where the guy explains it even more, u will see where it makes sense.


I need to get myself a Ps3 hopefully in a year or so when de price drop :oops:

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Postby scotty_buttons » November 20th, 2006, 11:05 pm

First a bit on my background.
I have done an education for computer sciences with a major in 3D graphics development, and I am now working for my PhD.
Since this is so, I have worked quite a bit with hardware in terms of programming and graphics creation


Let me warn all of you, sony is overhyping it's product once again, like they have done before.
And I am amazed to see how biased several of the webpages and magazines are.
They all try to downsize Xeon and Xenon technology, but with the arguments and testcases that most of these sources come up with , Cell and RSX will often come out way worse, yet that's a thing they do not show us of course.

Many people don't seem to grasp that ATI's Xenon truly is a revolution in terms of pipeline architecture.
Unlike the RSX the Xenon is truly next gen,
Xenon revolutionizes powermanagement within it's core, so it doesn't need all the mhz's to create a massive output.

The unified shader architecture also gives developers way more playground, and the Xbox 360 will certainly be able to incorperate more ways of instruction for creating and rendering the graphics on screen.
The RSX on the other hand will have it's massive clockspeed, but it will use it in a less efficient way.

Anyway, with the specs of both consoles now fully released it is possible to do a REAL TIME comparinson of the 2 consoles,your about to see what most of the sony representetives didnt want you to see.


Comparing these two GPU's is like comparing Apples to Banana's.
RSX on paper will have certain advantages over Xenon, and Xenon will have certain advantages over RSX.

There is the element of co-operation with the CPU we also have to consider.

Ok, lets put up the specs for the RSX as published.

- 550 Mhz

- 51 billion dot products/sec count's for total system performance

- 300 Million Transistors

- 136 shader operations per clock

good now that's for the facts as presented to us, we have 550 MHz of power to work with

The Cell and the RSX together are capable to produce 51 billion dot products.
I think it is interesting to take a closer look at this claim especially, since I worked with this bit while the specs of both consoles first became public, the important thing is that mnay people just compare the seperate peices of each console to PS fanboys and PS3 no-it-alls it will be music to there ears, but to us who know about comoputers and know how to compare them,ill tell you one thing, sony has lost alot of its credibility ;).

Anyway.
Since the Cell will have 7 DSP's all being able to do a dot product per cycle, we have some numbers to work with, we can put the numbers in a small calculation.

7DSP * 3.2(ghz) = 22.4 billion dot products/sec for the CPU

since we had 51 billion in total , we will have to substract them to know what is left for the GPU.

51 - 22.4 = 28.6 Billion dot products

When you devide this number to the clockspeed of the GPU you will get 52 ALU operations per clock as they are called.

Now as stated before, the RSX's architecture is not that different from the GeForce 6800 and so it will use Vector4 standards.
Since ATI's architecture is done with Vector5s it will handle the material a bit different.
Now there also the Multiply Add instructions, in short MADD instructions to work with.
In plain English MADD means that the vector graphic will be recalculated to it's precise position, and the instruction always sort of double checks before we get output, that's why we have throw in the 2 value in the end calculation.

So, what we have here is this.

52 ALU ops * 4 floats (vector4s) * 550 (clockspeed) * 2 (MADD) =228.8

Gflops for the RSX and Cell as a team.


If we do the same with the specs of Xbox 360 we will find that it does the following, all the numbers provided through the same calculation though with the Xeon the dot products are devided over it's 3 cores.

48 ALU ops (less than PS3) * 5 floats (vector5s better than PS3) * 500 (less than PS3) * 2(MADD) = 240 Gflops for Xenon, and Xeon as a team

This is one example of how this Xenon GPU together with the Xeon does more with less, and in this case it will give slightly better graphics.

So in theory we have a more powerful RSX with more Mhz's at it's disposal which due to some limitations within the architecture can not be used to it's full potential.

overall the RSX basically is a current gen processor which is overclocked, since it's architecture is not that different from it's predecessors.

I think in the end it will most definately come to the creative sollutions of the game programmers..
Which is when the xbox 360 wins overall as What many people are missing is that the new architecture of ATI opens new ways in terms of graphical development, and the 3 core CPU helps greatly too,as the Cell has only one SPE to the IBM's Xenon's three, which means that developers will have to cram all their game control, AI, and physics code into at most two threads that are sharing a very narrow execution core with no instruction window.

which is why developers can now ponder new ways of programming, while for PS3 Developers will be bound to the more conventional ways of programming, and the power will be harder to effectively program.

So in terms of hardware the Xbox 360 definately will be able to deliver more performance.

Not to forget the price too. the ps3 will be $499 for the low grade and $599 for the premium grade,and the games cost $60-$80 each.But the thing that bothers me is that with the xbox 360 all you have to do with the core console is buy a hard drive and it wouild be a premium console,but for a low grade ps3($499) it has alot of features missing that you cant just buy that sony said the console will have,such as the low grade version($499) will not have HDMI for HDTVs, now ii dont think for the average person that they would pay that much for a console,

.Also the xbox 360 will be lowerd in price when the ps3 comes out.And also the PS3 will incorperate a blu ray player in there low grade console when it dosnt even have HDTV support so whats the point in putting a blu ray player when you cant use a HDTV on the console?

The internet service that PS3 are claiming is going to be free is agian a lie as there leaving that to the game designers, yep the GAME DESIGNERS!now would you think they will bother to set up a gaming service?no. Because sony are to lazy to setup a few servers and do it them selves, thats why there claiming its going to be free, whch of course its not even going to be available unless a very few minority a game designers companys decide to do this.

And the demos shown at E3 were all pre-rendered images as when they were designed, a prototype of the the PS3 wasnt even available and it was shown on a high end Mac gaming PC, so what you saw at E3 its not what you will on the PS3, so dont get your hopes up.Plus when the xbox 360 was shown at E3 it was running at a thid of its full power.

I am still shocked that many people still are falling for the sony hype, remember what they said last time? they claimed that the PS2 would match graphics of pixar animations such as toy story.and just to let you know the cell was designed for multimedia not gaimng while the xbox 360's proccesor was desinged speciffically for gaming.

There, you have it..after reading this and many other PROFESSIONAL reviews, microsoft won the title again..for now at least..

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Postby SUB » November 20th, 2006, 11:22 pm

:shock:

hello




















Am scotty_buttons, with all that u said which i don`t doubt you one bit. It all comes down to what the people really want. The xbox processor sounds very good, almost like a pci express with the pipelines etc.
Anyway i can agree with you on the processor thing, but its the total package that sells not the gaming alone.


I hope we have an agreement on that issue

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Postby scientist » November 21st, 2006, 12:01 am

If its total package...Xbox wins

it has the Games, The graphics, The Online experience and the better price

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Postby X_pl0d » November 21st, 2006, 12:57 am

Interesting Scotty.....lemme put in my 2 cents

I have a masters degree in Business management, a second degree as of next year June in Digital Entertainment and VIdeogame design. I am an analyst and advisor for SONY and have an internship finishing next year August with EA Vancouver, from which i will start Production management with them. In other words, i dont think in terms of "hardware and software stats" alone, i think in terms of dollars and sense...what sells, why it sells, why people buy it and what people are going to buy next...thats what i do.

I know people like to compare the hardware and graphics of a system. Its expected when a system comes out, there is nothing else to really compare, no games are really out yet and launch titles do not show the power of the systme atall. Proof being that at the end of a systems life is when you see the best graphics. Games make a system good, the hardware just helps, a little. We all know no inovation and plenty power dont mean a thing.

SONY is relying heavily on its fanbase to sell this new system. Its not a bad thing, it works and is working well. The target niche for the Playstation systems have always been the teenage/post adolescent group. The PS3 is stepping into XBOX territory now, with a more expensive high end system sporting Blu Ray, which many a teenager cannot buy, yet alone may not have the Hardware to fully support this system. XBOX was geared to the post teen generation, the 23+ year olds, who play games and are fedup of offline gaming, they want to go online and they want to do it easily, they work, have jobs and want a quick online fix when they are ready. SONY is targeting this niche too....since according the the ESA the average gamer is 33 years old. Essentially SONY is trying to expand on their niche...hence the many reporters saying SONY is "biting off more than they can chew" even in their fan based mags like PSM and OPM (which i write articles for from time to time - I used to review games as well)
Its a bold step that SONY is making by doing this. They are betting heavily on their Blu Ray...but then we know SONY's track record on Disc development, Minidisc, UMD and now Blu Ray...not looking good, but they have a better chance with this i hope. Not to mention they fail to tell people that you need to buy a PS2 mem card extention (sold separately and plugs into another USB port) to play the PS2 games, if they get them to work (since the software update isnt out yet) and another set of cash for HDMI cables to play Blu Ray in the quality they deserve.....not to mention only about 4 of the launch titles support this 1080p format...most are lower.

Their launch is riddled with errors. Firstly promising a worldwide launch on a system for the 3rd time in a row (PS2, PSP and now this) only for it not to happen once again. The second being some fans and fans mags/sites trying to compare first gen games on PS3 with second and third gen games on the XBOX which is pointless...you arent really seeing SONY taking a shot at Microsoft as yet...everyone is kinda staying in their corner for now, like waiting to see who is gonna throw the first punch.

I dont have nearly much experience as you do in graphics atall, but i dont need to anyway. I can see detail and obvious flaws in games that are rushed out the door and lacking polish. What people dont see is what is actually pulled from a game before it is actually made. Its ridiculous what happens sometimes.

Currently if you have to buy a NEXT GEN system RIGHT NOW for all the graphics and hoopla you go with the XBOX. Microsoft has launched a year early for a reason, it was not premature. They had a whole year with no competition to work out their kinks, their software problems (god knows they have their share) and get their developers aquainted with their developers system. PS2 has proven that graphics dont mean the system is going to outsell anything, its the games, and MS have secured a foothold with companies with respect to certain exclusivity.
GTA series is now launching simultaneously on PS3 and 360....Finaly Fantasy 13 and Metal Gear are the big punches SONY has up their sleeve, no not GT, and not really DMC 4 since people are slowly realizing Dante is not your playable character in the game, its the lookalike Nero....why? i dunno.

I hope you fellas know about the current GT HD. You get a handful of cars, go online and have to pay using your credit card to get the remaining 400+ cars and extra tracks for the game, of course they tell you online is free, but thats the catch...by the way so far its suposed to be 80 cents a car since Polyphony takes over a month to make each car, you pay for their hard work. So, problems there in some cases. Its a transition game for when their GT5/6 or whatever its called is going to come out...whenever that is. SONY loves this transition thing if you didnt notice.


I have been to E3 for the past 3 years. Ive watched the dawn of these new systems. You get to see it for yourself, play them for yourself and ask he developers for yourself. Speaking to a developer on the "goddess of war" Heavenly Sword series he said and i quote "yea this is the most we can push out of the PS3 system" and folks....it aint that good. Maybee thats why their @ss got pushed back from launch to a later date..maybee someone got wind of someone shooting off their mouth too early.

For now the XBOX is on top, quite easily. But SONY has a rabbid fanbase of little young American teenagers who believe everything they hear and listen to no one else....they will drink sand thinking its water..and SONY knows that....and they will exploit it untill the system reaches its true potential. SONY is right now suffering a 200+ US loss PER system on sale. That is a huge reason for their lackluster number of launch systems, they are hoping the promotions will draw more sponsors to settle this huge debt, not to mention PS2 sales. Mind you be sure to hear SONY make an official announcement after Christmas saying that they outsold MS and Nintendo with their consoles because of their PS2.....when mind you we are in the next gen, not last gen. But its part of their marketing strategy....all well and good.

The Wii now, this system is not meant to compete with XBOX or PS3. They are geared to two demographics, the family niche and the veteran gamer niche. Both of which want something new and different. Families want less blood and violence, vets want something different. They have been through the "omg look at the graphics" soooo many times this is no different. Its as big as the graphics from PS1 to PS2...same sh!t, different day. They want new gameplay...this is it. Not to mention Nintendo controls and always will control 10 percent of the videogame market. As long as there are kids there will be Pokemon. As long as there is Mario, Zelda and Metroid.....Nintendo will sell. Difference is this company does not rely on 3rd party developers to sell their system...none of those games are 3rd party. Nor do they need to over advertise. When DS came out it was looked at with a frown.....wtf? a touch pad? ....now look at the DS...last year August the DS system outsold the PSP, PS2, XBOX, Gamecube and GBA COMBINED with the launch of little Nintendogs...over 90,000 units sold....look at that. Its cheaper, and more family oriented and parents are buying that for their kids....plus its gonna be easier to get for christmas.

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Postby trini_ravi » November 21st, 2006, 1:06 am

scotty buttons where uh copy and paste that article from???


the low-end ps3 had HDTV outputs... and tha article baised to the 360.

give it till next summer and well see who has the better system... and who sells more units.

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Postby X_pl0d » November 21st, 2006, 1:14 am

the difference between the 20GB and 60GB is the HDD space and the 20GB does not have WiFi capability.

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Postby scientist » November 21st, 2006, 12:14 pm

As for sony not taking shots at microsoft....just check the amount of BS sony has posted lately, like saying you need an HDD to play HD-DVD on your Xbox and you are required to go out and buy a ton of stuff to get your 360 running right.

Image


X_pl0d.....how you know so well....i really rather play online since i get introduced to online from the dreamcast days :oops:

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Postby r3iXmann » November 21st, 2006, 1:00 pm

PS3 = 99%hype,1% actual product

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Postby Bezman » November 21st, 2006, 1:20 pm

PS3 for the fail..

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Postby Bezman » November 21st, 2006, 1:20 pm

Image

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Postby Bezman » November 21st, 2006, 1:21 pm

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Postby X_pl0d » November 21st, 2006, 2:28 pm

scientist wrote:As for sony not taking shots at microsoft....just check the amount of BS sony has posted lately, like saying you need an HDD to play HD-DVD on your Xbox and you are required to go out and buy a ton of stuff to get your 360 running right.

Image


X_pl0d.....how you know so well....i really rather play online since i get introduced to online from the dreamcast days :oops:

360 games dont use HD-DVD...its only for movies you dont need it for gaming....right now HD-DVD/Blu Ray is in first gen...wait...price will go down you get it cheap when its worth buying...same when it was Beta to VHS....same as VHS to DVD.

This is what has me confused with SONY's launch. Why are they trying to sell a full on home system and not a game console? A cell phone can play video, take pics and play music okay....but it cant touch an ipod or digicam in the same way atall. You get one product that does everything only so so. To add to that the PS3 dashboard, like the PSP dashboard has a crap interface. Im waiting to see what it is SONY has up their sleeve to push them ahead. They arent being ruled out yet, lets see what they do.

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Postby RASC » November 21st, 2006, 2:50 pm

X_pl0d, you find the interface is crap? i find it rather easy to navigate and understand/
jed it look like we all gonna be split on this... :|

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Postby X_pl0d » November 21st, 2006, 3:58 pm

doesnt matter. If you like it thats cool. For me its too much to navigate to get to your music and movies (which SOny seems to be marketing allot with the system). But remember I had a test system. The interfance may have been made a little more user friendly before the final product was shipped.
Dont get me wrong...i love SONY and their Playstation. the PS2 is possibly one of the best consoles ever....really ever. Not the most nostalgic *lol* but one of the best. I hope the PS3 makes its mark in time though.

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Postby scotty_buttons » November 21st, 2006, 7:28 pm

i totally agree with you x_plod..that review was pretty much based on if you wanna buy a console NOW, which would be the best..and yes i did copy n paste that article from another site..but i get the drift of it and,

triniravi, HDMI outputs are good but i dont think everybody has an HDTV in their house..the PS3 has TWO HDMI outputs..cuz everyone has 2 HDTVs in their house right? :roll:

but things would get more interesting in a couple of months from now..

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Postby X_pl0d » November 21st, 2006, 9:37 pm

correction on the 60GB vs 20GB difference
60 GB has WiFi built in and memory stick/card ports (i.e the ones you use in your digicam/cellphone etc). 20GB does not come with these

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Postby honda hoe » September 2nd, 2008, 11:42 pm

so 2 years later... the ps3 has lived up to its hype.. and then sum

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Postby Cjruckus » September 3rd, 2008, 12:14 am

pioneer wrote:what hype?


*crickets*


little big failure?

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Postby honda hoe » December 9th, 2008, 2:24 am

posers :roll:

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Postby vimal_vs » December 9th, 2008, 3:40 am

what?? but ent they only have like.. one or two successful exclusives? i can only think of MGS4, but that may soon be on the 360 also :| :|

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