Thread for the educated only (Human Resources)

[zer0xp]

Well, I was having this discussion earlier with a friend. I thought I'd bring it here.. What do you all think of using performance appraisal for layoffs? Like for example, a contract worker.

Do you think its fair for a company to refuse the renewal of a contract worker's contract due to poor performance? I mean, this method was created to prevent ill feeling toward a company, and to reduce the emotional effect on the worker. Do you think its fair for 1) the company to lay him off, 2) for him to be upset about it?

Another question, does this happen in trinidad? Happened to anyone on the forums recently?

Below is an excerpt stating my opinion.

Depending on the amount of people that an organization chooses to lay off, and the positions that they hold, a business can make effective use of a downsizing strategy by laying off the poor performers. For example, if a specific division of a company is not performing up to par, an easy way to cut costs without redesigning the project is to cut jobs within that project group. Essentially, in this situation, a loss in productivity due to a layoff will not be a concern, because the group is already underperforming (Virick, Lilly, & Casper, 2007). By laying off groups in a specific department, you lower the operating cost of that department, thus essentially increasing profits. If the poorer performers in an organization are cut out, greater opportunity is given to those inside the organization in terms of promotion and professional development.

Discuss.

[Cjruckus]

Would be interesting to see what the Roytec kids say...

But contracts are essential for big business. If employees are not up to snuff, give them the axe. When you are a worker by contract that's just the way its supposed to go.

[pablo_tt]

Put yourself in the employer's position: If you give a man a contract to work to certain levels as stated in the contract and he fails to deliver, then why bother to keep him there if you can offer the same contract to someone else that can deliver



however



Put yourself in the employee's position: If you know that because of a certain evaluation you are seriously not delivering the required amount of work for the company, then why should it come as a shock if tey terminate your contract?

[Chiney]

Would be interesting to see what the Roytec kids say...

But contracts are essential for big business. If employees are not up to snuff, give them the axe. When you are a worker by contract that's just the way its supposed to go.

good answer..

but thats the normal thing with a big business..

for example..banks

u start off as temp..which is a normal thing for other companies as well, then u move up to contract..

thats the hardest stage to get past, as it requires u to perform to your best inorder for it to be renewed...and after u pass that little test, u MAY get a permanent status in your current position or wat may it be.

but as for laying off workers for shitty performance.. i totally agree on droppin the axe. your just another hold up in "production" as the trini saying goes....


EDIT: why should he/she be vex? wen you perform under your expected level, its your own doing that made u get lay off...vex shouldnt be a reaction, what should be a reaction is that u make yours work habbits better and more to wat u know is expected...

i have so many friends that prob switch jobs more than they bathe...shameful but true


** thinks to self..maybe TSTT is full of (connection drops) **

[ZanRx8]

In all depends on the labor laws that govern the land. Employees and employers both have certain rights.
For example the state that I live in is a right to work state:
Which means that an employer can terminate your employment at anytime without explanation.
There are also laws that protect Cooperation that decide to downgrade or eliminate positions through restructuring of their company. In these instances most of the time a severance package is offered to the employee.

As far as termination goes whether involuntary or voluntary; performance appraisal has to be consistent throughout the company and is actually a good avenue to utilize when time for promotion or accountability goes.

From past experience employees that get consistent feedback on their performance know where they stand, so if they identify their strengths and opportunities in a Personal Developmental Plan. There is no surprise when they are promoted or terminated for performance.

[ziig]

I think a contract makes it more plausable for the awardee to justy keeping or fireing a contractor due to perfomance....it is the easiest way to measure work and keep standards at a level accceptable to what ever the awardee has set.

[Rory Phoulorie]

Do you think its fair for a company to refuse the renewal of a contract worker's contract due to poor performance? I mean, this method was created to prevent ill feeling toward a company, and to reduce the emotional effect on the worker. Do you think its fair for 1) the company to lay him off, 2) for him to be upset about it?

Another question, does this happen in trinidad? Happened to anyone on the forums recently?

Is it fair, yes. But it must be done properly.

In the company where I work (in Trinidad), contract employees are usually given a one year contract. Usually, you realise whether a person is performing or not within the first six months. Therefore, you do a performance appraisal with the person after six months. During the appraisal process, the person will become aware of their weak points, told of various methods to help improve their performance, and will be given a chance to respond whether they are in agreement or not with the appraisal. They, in essence, are also given a chance to improve their performance until the next appraisal which is at their supervisor's discretion. This appraisal process is documented and goes in the employee's personal file in the company's records.

If after, say, a month you still have not seen any improvement with the employee, you formally write the employee indicating your concern and noting that this formal concern is being recorded in their personal file. Again, you do a formal (documented) appraisal with the employee so that the employee knows what are your exact concerns.

After a next month has elapsed, and the employee's performance still has not improved, you re-do the process outlined above. If there is still no improvement in the employee's performance, you terminate the employee's contract with immediate effect as stated under the employer's rights in the company's policies and procedures manual.

You pay the employee whatever he is entitled to (salary, vacation leave accumulated, etc.) plus one extra month's salary. You have to give the employee one month's notice before termination (so that he/she can explore other job opportunities), so the one extra month's salary is given to the employee to in order to circumvent this in the event of immediate termination. Also, when employees are aware that their contracts are being terminated for reasons of non-performance, they tend to try and sabotage the company. So, you want a nice, clean and quick cut to be effected.

The company therefore needs to ensure that the employee's non-performance and ways of improving performance are documented. The company needs to ensure that an adequate paper trail is left in the event that the employee takes the company to (industrial) court for what he/she views as wrongful termination.

The same process basically applies to "permanent" (i.e., non-contract) employees. In the private sector, no employee is permanent. It's just the benefits differ (e.g., company pension plan vs. contract bonus).

[wagonrunner]

regarding "department poor performance"............,

what's the remedy (cost effective), when workload is much more than there is workers to handle, as is the case of understaffing?

[Rory Phoulorie]

regarding "department poor performance"............,

what's the remedy (cost effective), when workload is much more than there is workers to handle, as is the case of understaffing?

Is the increased workload expected over a long term or short term period?

Long term period would require additional staff. That's a human resource department issue and should be taken up with your supervisor and them.

Short term period would require overtime from existing staff.

Normal type of overtime compensation for non-professional staff would be pay at time and a half, double time, or triple time.

Normal type of overtime compensation for professional staff working in an engineering consultancy firm is a thumbs up, "Good Job!" and "Professionals don't get paid overtime, that's part of the job!".

[wagonrunner]

regarding "department poor performance"............,

what's the remedy (cost effective), when workload is much more than there is workers to handle, as is the case of understaffing?

Is the increased workload expected over a long term or short term period?

Long term period would require additional staff. That's a human resource department issue and should be taken up with your supervisor and them.

Short term period would require overtime from additional staff.

Normal type of overtime compensation for non-professional staff would be pay at time and a half, double time, or triple time.

Normal type of overtime compensation for professional staff working in an engineering consultancy firm is a thumbs up, "Good Job!" and "Professionals don't get paid overtime, that's part of the job!".

so true.

[AllTrac]

where i work they use the performance appraisal more for end of year bonus, even tho it has to be submitted for contract renewal, in the event that some gets a negative appraisal it wont be grounds for not renewing a contract, if they try to use those grounds then the union would step in, what they(HR) do is try to pinpoint the areas where the employee has poor performance and send them to various training and seminars relating to it.

[rolandk]

If you are not satisfied with an employee's performance it would be humane of you to point it out to them (lets say during a quarterly appraisal)...............put it on their employment records..............and give them a timeline to take remedial actions with clear milestones.

If they fail to meet those milestones, then you have no choice but to fire them. It is not fair to the employee for you to just tell them that they are not performing, and give them the axe. For all we know, they may not know that they are underperforming based on the company's management style. Yes, you heard me right, the compnay may be at fault for the performance (or lack of) if the said employee.

It matters not if they are contract or full time.

From my experience, the best workers can be the ones who have been turned around from initially being unproductive, having said that, there are just some lazy bastards out there who need to get the axe.

[hydroep]

Normal type of overtime compensation for professional staff working in an engineering consultancy firm is a thumbs up, "Good Job!" and "Professionals don't get paid overtime, that's part of the job!".

LOL...an' if it becomes a regular thing you're taken for granted and don't even get a thanks anymore, all because they too damn cheap to hire more people (and then want to blame you for low productivity). To hell with that yes. No problem with working overtime on occasion but if it's a regular thing no way. If they want to fire me then go right ahead...is their loss.

As regards the original question there's nothing wrong with firing someone for non-performance based on a poor appraisal...just so long as it's a FAIR appraisal. Some companies may be more humane about it and give a man a chance to buck up, but they are not obligated to do so. As a former manager of mine once told me..."I not running a counseling office, I'm here to run a business...I don't have time to deal with people's personal issues."

Also when a man get fired he bound to feel it, no matter how prepared one might be. It is human nature to blame someone else (in this case the company) when things go wrong. It's much easier to do than face the truth about ourselves...

[drunkenscorpion]

As regards the original question there's nothing wrong with firing someone for non-performance based on a poor appraisal...just so long as it's a FAIR appraisal.

As far as I know as appraisals are concerned...the person/s being appraised are usually required to sign or contest the appraisal before it is affirmed.

[Monk BANzai]

Well, I was having this discussion earlier with a friend. I thought I'd bring it here.. What do you all think of using performance appraisal for layoffs? Like for example, a contract worker.

Do you think its fair for a company to refuse the renewal of a contract worker's contract due to poor performance? I mean, this method was created to prevent ill feeling toward a company, and to reduce the emotional effect on the worker. Do you think its fair for 1) the company to lay him off, 2) for him to be upset about it?

Another question, does this happen in trinidad? Happened to anyone on the forums recently?

Below is an excerpt stating my opinion.

Depending on the amount of people that an organization chooses to lay off, and the positions that they hold, a business can make effective use of a downsizing strategy by laying off the poor performers. For example, if a specific division of a company is not performing up to par, an easy way to cut costs without redesigning the project is to cut jobs within that project group. Essentially, in this situation, a loss in productivity due to a layoff will not be a concern, because the group is already underperforming (Virick, Lilly, & Casper, 2007). By laying off groups in a specific department, you lower the operating cost of that department, thus essentially increasing profits. If the poorer performers in an organization are cut out, greater opportunity is given to those inside the organization in terms of promotion and professional development.

Discuss.

refusing to renew a contract can only be based on Performance tagets not being met as per the original contract specs. For example. If your company is providing help desk services to another company, and if their "closure" rate is 80% per month and your company drops below that, then based on contract details, the "Client" has the right to charge you a 10% of the monthly fee for not meeting that rate.

If you as a contract work enter into a job without dealing with those details first, then you area a sucker forany kind of bashing that the "client" or "boss" may dish out to you.

localyl tho, contact workes get the shity end of the stick and are usually the first out the door if anything goes belly up. Contract workers have to be on thier toesi nthat regard.

Most times tho, a qucik way out of a renewal of a contract is to retender it..that way the miriad of reaosn can be put behind "not being chosen".

if yuh smart, you'll survive....if yuh dotish..then the "exit door" is very near...

[joker]

if yuh smart, you'll survive....if yuh dotish..then the "exit door" is very near...

and to think i worked in the same company for 8 yrs as a contractor

[RBphoto]

Did mine yesterday. I not getting fired (not that they would anyway, i am permanent). Yes the company can use it for grounds for termination, but you have to be really dense, performed really poorly over a few reviews and have been anti productive to actually get fired after a review. When I do a review of employees, the only ones I know I can actually fire (in consultation with my line manager) are the short term temps, as they have like 6 months to work with us, so if they are not performing by 3 months, they out, and there is a development plan for their improvement, we do offer task specific traing, because we might want to use a good temp on another job as well.

[RBphoto]

if yuh smart, you'll survive....if yuh dotish..then the "exit door" is very near...

and to think i worked in the same company for 8 yrs as a contractor

There is no exit door for a govament wuk, just a revolving entrance door

[ztune]

yeh, for contract workers, performance appraisals r used....it comes from the head of the dept, only if d head decides to extend the contract of dat person or rehire the said person....of course wen it comes 2 our hr manager, he has the final say, along with the I.R officer here...

however, when an employee begins to work, here, within 2 weeks, dat contract can be terminated, so 1 do not have 2 wait on a performance appraisal for termination...

i agree wid whut banzai said "if yuh smart, you'll survive....if yuh dotish..then the "exit door" is very near..."...dat is basically d bottom line, unless ur boss c u as a threat 2 one of his pips in d office....den, well, u kno d rest

[Monk BANzai]

bump....

[bluefete]

General Motors regularly lays off the bottom 5% of its employees based on performance appraisals.

You are hired to perform (contract or otherwise).

IMO, once the appropriate measurement criteria are in place and you do not meet them, then >> for you.

[trinigamer]

I have a question, why it is government contracts are not so "binding"?...let's say the contract states you would be paid on the second to last working day of each month, and when that time reaches there is no pay, when you ask about it they tell you "accounts playin de arse"....then you mention the contract...and they say..."well is gubment...tha does happen"

What if you withheld your services using the reason..."well is gubment wukk...tha does happen"?

Contract workers get paid last. They make more than public servants, including the accounts people, so.....

[evo-STI-k]

Put yourself in the employer's position: If you give a man a contract to work to certain levels as stated in the contract and he fails to deliver, then why bother to keep him there if you can offer the same contract to someone else that can deliver



however



Put yourself in the employee's position: If you know that because of a certain evaluation you are seriously not delivering the required amount of work for the company, then why should it come as a shock if tey terminate your contract?

very good answer.

many employers i know are keeping a smaller permenant staff (older ones that have worked with them for YEars and years and have proven themselves) and only hiring newer employees on contract.

its an easy way of keeping the new ones in check, when they knwo that they can loose their job due to bad performance - it works in the employers favor.

[bluefete]

All contracts are binding documents once signed by both parties.

If you are supposed to be paid on the 28th, that is a legal agreement.

The problem with the government is that very few, if any, would want to tackle such a bureaucratic entity to ensure that they maintain the terms of the contract.

That is why you have so many government "contract" employees bawling when the month comes.

[bluefete]

The gov't can't really intimidate them. A contract is a binding document.

If the employee fractures a bit of the contract, the gov't can take action.

So why not the reverse?

Contract employees have a right to be paid on time like everyone else.

The major problem we have in T&T is that employees do not know their rights!!!!

[bluefete]

Well it's about time that Trinbagonians start standing up for their rights.

[Damien]

They doing this all over now they looking far any little reason to fire people that they really dont need, ten permanent workers were fired recently in the company that i work for and were given 1.5 months salary where d rights

[bluefete]

Rights = What the contract says. get it in writing.

[ziig]

in my experience a contract is only as good as the paper it is written on...and always ...always there is fine print that puts the contract writer in better position than the contracted...