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Ben_spanna
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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Ben_spanna » May 10th, 2019, 1:11 pm

You all believe wha you want, and ill have my religious beliefs that I live by...… im not pushing my religion onto anyone- it was never taught to me that we had to , it was never preached unto me that anyone following any other religion should be converted or killed... if thats YOUR religion then so be it.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby eitech » May 10th, 2019, 1:29 pm

Ben_spanna wrote:You all believe wha you want, and ill have my religious beliefs that I live by...… im not pushing my religion onto anyone- it was never taught to me that we had to , it was never preached unto me that anyone following any other religion should be converted or killed... if thats YOUR religion then so be it.


Jus for the record which belief u hold on to?

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Ben_spanna » May 10th, 2019, 1:30 pm

eitech wrote:
Ben_spanna wrote:You all believe wha you want, and ill have my religious beliefs that I live by...… im not pushing my religion onto anyone- it was never taught to me that we had to , it was never preached unto me that anyone following any other religion should be converted or killed... if thats YOUR religion then so be it.


Jus for the record which belief u hold on to?


kindly allow that to be my personal information.. thank you...........

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby zoom rader » May 10th, 2019, 1:32 pm

Ben_spanna wrote:
eitech wrote:
Ben_spanna wrote:You all believe wha you want, and ill have my religious beliefs that I live by...… im not pushing my religion onto anyone- it was never taught to me that we had to , it was never preached unto me that anyone following any other religion should be converted or killed... if thats YOUR religion then so be it.


Jus for the record which belief u hold on to?


kindly allow that to be my personal information.. thank you...........
What a coward you are.

What you scared to defend your faith?

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Slartibartfast » May 10th, 2019, 3:50 pm

Slartibartfast wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
eitech wrote:Well u already expressed ur views on the genesis account so now use repeating my views but we could look at the loopholes u see part by part wrt Man’s fall

No need to beat around the bush. Let's just agree to disagree on those points. Those topics have already been beaten to death by both sides in this thread.

I'm more interested in your unique belief structure. How does your belief differ from other forms of Catholicism and how do you know that you are right? Does this mean that everyone else including the Pope got it wrong? How did you reach to your conclusion?

Just re-quoting cuz I feel like this got buried in the recent activity. I'm still interested in hearing what you have to say though.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby eitech » May 10th, 2019, 4:36 pm

Slartibartfast wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
eitech wrote:Well u already expressed ur views on the genesis account so now use repeating my views but we could look at the loopholes u see part by part wrt Man’s fall

No need to beat around the bush. Let's just agree to disagree on those points. Those topics have already been beaten to death by both sides in this thread.

I'm more interested in your unique belief structure. How does your belief differ from other forms of Catholicism and how do you know that you are right? Does this mean that everyone else including the Pope got it wrong? How did you reach to your conclusion?

Just re-quoting cuz I feel like this got buried in the recent activity. I'm still interested in hearing what you have to say though.


Hey i aint forget to reply. Jus been real busy

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby bluefete » May 10th, 2019, 7:39 pm

Slartibartfast wrote:Atheism is, in the broadest sense, the absence of belief in the existence of deities Less broadly, atheism is the rejection of belief that any deities exist. In an even narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.Atheism is contrasted with theism, which, in its most general form, is the belief that at least one deity exists.


So atheism is a belief that God does not exist! Great point.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby bluefete » May 10th, 2019, 8:05 pm

MG Man wrote: One of the most gross crimes against humanity is this thing about respecting religious beliefs....heck the same ones who demand it are the same ones who send out missionaries to convert those who believe in other stuff....(Well, I actually agree with you here. Some of the most egregious acts are/were committed by religious believers, across religions, in the name of conversion, commerce and slavery.)

Everyone has the right to believe in whatever they want, but NOBODY should be denied the right to point and laugh at the beliefs of others. (Go and tell that to a Muslim, nah)

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Slartibartfast » May 10th, 2019, 8:58 pm

bluefete wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:Atheism is, in the broadest sense, the absence of belief in the existence of deities Less broadly, atheism is the rejection of belief that any deities exist. In an even narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.Atheism is contrasted with theism, which, in its most general form, is the belief that at least one deity exists.


So atheism is a belief that God does not exist! Great point.
Yup! Just like men are a type of women and being straight is a type of gay! Great job!

Edit:
Just like Usain Bolt being able to run the 100m in less than 10 seconds is a type of walking disability.

Just like everyone without a medical docotorate is a type of medical doctor (shout out trevor sayers)

If you want to claim that the absence of something means it is a subset of the thing that it is absent of then I could use this bullsh!t logic whole day. Quick question... what do you understand about venn diagrams?

If anything you are a type of atheist because you lack belief in 99.9% of the gods that I lack belief in. It's only 1 god that we disagree on. But I'm not into making cheap arguments
Last edited by Slartibartfast on May 10th, 2019, 9:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Ben_spanna » May 10th, 2019, 9:00 pm

zoom rader wrote:
Ben_spanna wrote:
eitech wrote:
Ben_spanna wrote:You all believe wha you want, and ill have my religious beliefs that I live by...… im not pushing my religion onto anyone- it was never taught to me that we had to , it was never preached unto me that anyone following any other religion should be converted or killed... if thats YOUR religion then so be it.


Jus for the record which belief u hold on to?


kindly allow that to be my personal information.. thank you...........
What a coward you are.

What you scared to defend your faith?


Don’t need to defend it, really don’t care what you or anyone else thinks about my faith, I have my beliefs and you have yours.... what ever you say doesn’t change my feelings about it.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby bluefete » May 10th, 2019, 9:42 pm

If it is your belief that God does not exist, then that belief must be founded on an objective reality.

In this case, the objective reality is that the universe designed itself and came into existence by and of itself.

It then follows that humans evolved though non-intelligent design but became intelligent and higher than all other evolved beings thorough what exactly?

So a species that evolved later than all others became dominant through greater adaptation to its environment and evolved a pattern of speech and intelligence unlike any other in the universe.

Thus there can be no God. Correct?

Slartibartfast wrote:
bluefete wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:Atheism is, in the broadest sense, the absence of belief in the existence of deities Less broadly, atheism is the rejection of belief that any deities exist. In an even narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.Atheism is contrasted with theism, which, in its most general form, is the belief that at least one deity exists.


So atheism is a belief that God does not exist! Great point.
Yup! Just like men are a type of women and being straight is a type of gay! Great job!

Edit:
Just like Usain Bolt being able to run the 100m in less than 10 seconds is a type of walking disability.

Just like everyone without a medical docotorate is a type of medical doctor (shout out trevor sayers)

If you want to claim that the absence of something means it is a subset of the thing that it is absent of then I could use this bullsh!t logic whole day. Quick question... what do you understand about venn diagrams?

If anything you are a type of atheist because you lack belief in 99.9% of the gods that I lack belief in. It's only 1 god that we disagree on. But I'm not into making cheap arguments

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Slartibartfast » May 10th, 2019, 9:52 pm

bluefete wrote:If it is your belief that God does not exist, then that belief must be founded on an objective reality.

In this case, the objective reality is that the universe designed itself and came into existence by and of itself.

It then follows that humans evolved though non-intelligent design but became intelligent and higher than all other evolved beings thorough what exactly?

So a species that evolved later than all others became dominant through greater adaptation to its environment and evolved a pattern of speech and intelligence unlike any other in the universe.

Thus there can be no God. Correct?

Slartibartfast wrote:
bluefete wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:Atheism is, in the broadest sense, the absence of belief in the existence of deities Less broadly, atheism is the rejection of belief that any deities exist. In an even narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.Atheism is contrasted with theism, which, in its most general form, is the belief that at least one deity exists.


So atheism is a belief that God does not exist! Great point.
Yup! Just like men are a type of women and being straight is a type of gay! Great job!

Edit:
Just like Usain Bolt being able to run the 100m in less than 10 seconds is a type of walking disability.

Just like everyone without a medical docotorate is a type of medical doctor (shout out trevor sayers)

If you want to claim that the absence of something means it is a subset of the thing that it is absent of then I could use this bullsh!t logic whole day. Quick question... what do you understand about venn diagrams?

If anything you are a type of atheist because you lack belief in 99.9% of the gods that I lack belief in. It's only 1 god that we disagree on. But I'm not into making cheap arguments


This argument has been beaten to death several times already.

Google "God of the gaps" and "Burden of proof"

God of the gaps - Just because there are mechanisms that we do not yet understand does not mean that they are automatically attributable to a God.

Burden of proof - It is your assertion that a God exists. Therefore it is up to you to prove it so. See my previous post about belief in unicorns. Just because you cannot prove that unicorns exist does not autimatically mean that they do. If I want to assert that unicorns exist then I must offer proof for it.

So where is your objective proof that God exists?

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby zoom rader » May 10th, 2019, 9:55 pm

Ben_spanna wrote:
zoom rader wrote:
Ben_spanna wrote:
eitech wrote:
Ben_spanna wrote:You all believe wha you want, and ill have my religious beliefs that I live by...… im not pushing my religion onto anyone- it was never taught to me that we had to , it was never preached unto me that anyone following any other religion should be converted or killed... if thats YOUR religion then so be it.


Jus for the record which belief u hold on to?


kindly allow that to be my personal information.. thank you...........
What a coward you are.

What you scared to defend your faith?


Don’t need to defend it, really don’t care what you or anyone else thinks about my faith, I have my beliefs and you have yours.... what ever you say doesn’t change my feelings about it.
You believe your faith is the one true faith ?

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Slartibartfast » May 10th, 2019, 10:02 pm

eitech wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
eitech wrote:Well u already expressed ur views on the genesis account so now use repeating my views but we could look at the loopholes u see part by part wrt Man’s fall

No need to beat around the bush. Let's just agree to disagree on those points. Those topics have already been beaten to death by both sides in this thread.

I'm more interested in your unique belief structure. How does your belief differ from other forms of Catholicism and how do you know that you are right? Does this mean that everyone else including the Pope got it wrong? How did you reach to your conclusion?

Just re-quoting cuz I feel like this got buried in the recent activity. I'm still interested in hearing what you have to say though.


Hey i aint forget to reply. Jus been real busy


Cool. If you ever feel interested to really go down the rabbit hole check out the Vancouver debate between Jordan Peterson (clinical psycologist/ believer) and Sam Harris (neuroscientist/ atheist) on youtube. They both make excellent points for and against religion that I never even considered. They go far more in depth than any argument you will come across in this thread and both have a way or articulating ideas that you knew you had but couldn't truly find the words for. I'm sure you would like Jordan Peterson stuff.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby bluefete » May 10th, 2019, 10:28 pm

Slartibartfast wrote:Google "God of the gaps" and "Burden of proof"

God of the gaps - Just because there are mechanisms that we do not yet understand does not mean that they are automatically attributable to a God.

Burden of proof - It is your assertion that a God exists. Therefore it is up to you to prove it so. See my previous post about belief in unicorns. Just because you cannot prove that unicorns exist does not autimatically mean that they do. If I want to assert that unicorns exist then I must offer proof for it.

So where is your objective proof that God exists?


It is all around and includes myself.

There is only and will ever only be one of me - ditto for you and everyone else.

That is a miracle that I cannot fathom. Everyone wants God to come and say "Here I am." But he does that everyday in so many different ways.

The problem is that we expect to see some guy with a beard or goatee doing stuff we could never do. That is not how it works.

I find that as I get older, my thoughts sometimes turn to "what's next" after death's door. I know that I will find out eventually just like all the others who have gone before.

But as I have said so many times before - until scientists can tell me why an evolved being like me cannot live to be 500 years, they are just as clueless to death as those who say there is no God.

It is amazing that the non designed universe can throw up humans and other life forms only on this planet, within the precise habitable zone for life to exist. The next time you breathe the air and feel the breeze, ponder how you cannot do that on Mars. This great universe, that made itself from nothing, decided that I can only live for x amount of years and then I must die.

If I move from that I can see God's great design in everything and everyone, including you. That is all the proof I need.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby FordeG » May 10th, 2019, 11:12 pm

bluefete wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:Google "God of the gaps" and "Burden of proof"

God of the gaps - Just because there are mechanisms that we do not yet understand does not mean that they are automatically attributable to a God.

Burden of proof - It is your assertion that a God exists. Therefore it is up to you to prove it so. See my previous post about belief in unicorns. Just because you cannot prove that unicorns exist does not autimatically mean that they do. If I want to assert that unicorns exist then I must offer proof for it.

So where is your objective proof that God exists?


It is all around and includes myself.

There is only and will ever only be one of me - ditto for you and everyone else.

That is a miracle that I cannot fathom. Everyone wants God to come and say "Here I am." But he does that everyday in so many different ways.

The problem is that we expect to see some guy with a beard or goatee doing stuff we could never do. That is not how it works.

I find that as I get older, my thoughts sometimes turn to "what's next" after death's door. I know that I will find out eventually just like all the others who have gone before.

But as I have said so many times before - until scientists can tell me why an evolved being like me cannot live to be 500 years, they are just as clueless to death as those who say there is no God.

It is amazing that the non designed universe can throw up humans and other life forms only on this planet, within the precise habitable zone for life to exist. The next time you breathe the air and feel the breeze, ponder how you cannot do that on Mars. This great universe, that made itself from nothing, decided that I can only live for x amount of years and then I must die.

If I move from that I can see God's great design in everything and everyone, including you. That is all the proof I need.


That argument won't work against atheist because they'll say we evolved to suit our environment, so obviously it's perfect for us.

I'm still uncertain about evolution, it's possible God created this as a way we were created within the confines of this universe. It maybe so, I don't believe everything is literal in the Bible. The Bible is doctrine explaining how we must live to be saved. It is not a scientific text.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Slartibartfast » May 10th, 2019, 11:48 pm

bluefete wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:Google "God of the gaps" and "Burden of proof"

God of the gaps - Just because there are mechanisms that we do not yet understand does not mean that they are automatically attributable to a God.

Burden of proof - It is your assertion that a God exists. Therefore it is up to you to prove it so. See my previous post about belief in unicorns. Just because you cannot prove that unicorns exist does not autimatically mean that they do. If I want to assert that unicorns exist then I must offer proof for it.

So where is your objective proof that God exists?


It is all around and includes myself.

There is only and will ever only be one of me - ditto for you and everyone else.

That is a miracle that I cannot fathom. Everyone wants God to come and say "Here I am." But he does that everyday in so many different ways.

The problem is that we expect to see some guy with a beard or goatee doing stuff we could never do. That is not how it works.

I find that as I get older, my thoughts sometimes turn to "what's next" after death's door. I know that I will find out eventually just like all the others who have gone before.

But as I have said so many times before - until scientists can tell me why an evolved being like me cannot live to be 500 years, they are just as clueless to death as those who say there is no God.

It is amazing that the non designed universe can throw up humans and other life forms only on this planet, within the precise habitable zone for life to exist. The next time you breathe the air and feel the breeze, ponder how you cannot do that on Mars. This great universe, that made itself from nothing, decided that I can only live for x amount of years and then I must die.

If I move from that I can see God's great design in everything and everyone, including you. That is all the proof I need.


There are like 10 billion galaxies in the observable universe and like 100 billion stars per galaxy and 9 planets around our star.

I agree it is amazing that life can evolve from in animate matter. It is so highly improbable. In fact it is a 1 in a 9,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 chance that life will develop on a previously uninhabited planet. Now take into account the amount of failed starts that occured over the first billion years after the earth cooled in order to form primative life. Then it took another 2.5 billion years for complex life to develop and almost another billion years for humans to appear. That means even the tiniest chance of life developing made it inevitable because of the amount of chances that life had to develop.

If you want to know why you can't live to 500, well that is mostly well understood. I'm not sure if you are unaware of the mechnism for aging and death or you are making a comment on the the evolutionary purpose of mortality. If its the former then a quick google search can answer you there, if it's the latter then that just seems to be a evolutionary limitation.

Your "proof" doesn't really prove anything. You just decide to attribute everything outside of your understanding to this imaginary being. Just calling it proof doesn't make it so.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby rspann » May 11th, 2019, 2:11 pm

Quote slartibartfast:
I agree it is amazing that life can evolve from in animate matter. It is so highly improbable. In fact it is a 1 in a 9,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 chance that life will develop on a previously uninhabited planet. Now take into account the amount of failed starts that occured over the first billion years after the earth cooled in order to form primative life. Then it took another 2.5 billion years for complex life to develop and almost another billion years for humans to appear. That means even the tiniest chance of life developing made it inevitable because of the amount of chances that life had to develop.

If you want to know why you can't live to 500, well that is mostly well understood. I'm not sure if you are unaware of the mechnism for aging and death or you are making a comment on the the evolutionary purpose of mortality. If its the former then a quick google search can answer you there, if it's the latter then that just seems to be a evolutionary limitation.

Your "proof" doesn't really prove anything. You just decide to attribute everything outside of your understanding to this imaginary being. Just calling it proof doesn't make it so.[/quote]

Just as burden of proof is required from those who believe in God, could this info about billions of years taken for formation of life be proven? Could the number of stars quoted be ever counted and proven? Or is it just another belief system that takes faith to accept it as truth?

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby eitech » May 11th, 2019, 3:07 pm

Slartibartfast wrote:
eitech wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
eitech wrote:Well u already expressed ur views on the genesis account so now use repeating my views but we could look at the loopholes u see part by part wrt Man’s fall

No need to beat around the bush. Let's just agree to disagree on those points. Those topics have already been beaten to death by both sides in this thread.

I'm more interested in your unique belief structure. How does your belief differ from other forms of Catholicism and how do you know that you are right? Does this mean that everyone else including the Pope got it wrong? How did you reach to your conclusion?

Just re-quoting cuz I feel like this got buried in the recent activity. I'm still interested in hearing what you have to say though.


Hey i aint forget to reply. Jus been real busy


Cool. If you ever feel interested to really go down the rabbit hole check out the Vancouver debate between Jordan Peterson (clinical psycologist/ believer) and Sam Harris (neuroscientist/ atheist) on youtube. They both make excellent points for and against religion that I never even considered. They go far more in depth than any argument you will come across in this thread and both have a way or articulating ideas that you knew you had but couldn't truly find the words for. I'm sure you would like Jordan Peterson stuff.



Differentiating between my belief and another wont convince anyone of my belief still. One could argue well thats ur interpretation. The key question is how do i know that i am right. Faith is the EVIDENCE of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. If the God i believe in expresses himself through the written word and all he says about himself is true, then it is quite clear that the other religions are not. Many would take offense but thats it. I don’t need to read a hindu, islam, or any other book to know.
But not to stray from the real question, faith IS the evidence. It is the PROOF. Faith that leads to salvation is as easy making up ur mind, a change of heart, a thought. Something so simple and many people miss that point. You can do that in quiet moment alone. It’s not about goin in a church, or some pastor layin hands on you, or pushing ur head down in water, or a setta shouting and dancin, communion, speakin in tongues..... none of that nonsense or whatever u see with benny hinn and companies. Ur faith results in a personal relationship with God. I hope that answered ur question.
Anyways, i gonna watch the video u recommended and give my views

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Slartibartfast » May 11th, 2019, 3:42 pm

eitech wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
eitech wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
eitech wrote:Well u already expressed ur views on the genesis account so now use repeating my views but we could look at the loopholes u see part by part wrt Man’s fall

No need to beat around the bush. Let's just agree to disagree on those points. Those topics have already been beaten to death by both sides in this thread.

I'm more interested in your unique belief structure. How does your belief differ from other forms of Catholicism and how do you know that you are right? Does this mean that everyone else including the Pope got it wrong? How did you reach to your conclusion?

Just re-quoting cuz I feel like this got buried in the recent activity. I'm still interested in hearing what you have to say though.


Hey i aint forget to reply. Jus been real busy


Cool. If you ever feel interested to really go down the rabbit hole check out the Vancouver debate between Jordan Peterson (clinical psycologist/ believer) and Sam Harris (neuroscientist/ atheist) on youtube. They both make excellent points for and against religion that I never even considered. They go far more in depth than any argument you will come across in this thread and both have a way or articulating ideas that you knew you had but couldn't truly find the words for. I'm sure you would like Jordan Peterson stuff.



Differentiating between my belief and another wont convince anyone of my belief still. One could argue well thats ur interpretation. The key question is how do i know that i am right. Faith is the EVIDENCE of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. If the God i believe in expresses himself through the written word and all he says about himself is true, then it is quite clear that the other religions are not. Many would take offense but thats it. I don’t need to read a hindu, islam, or any other book to know.
But not to stray from the real question, faith IS the evidence. It is the PROOF. Faith that leads to salvation is as easy making up ur mind, a change of heart, a thought. Something so simple and many people miss that point. You can do that in quiet moment alone. It’s not about goin in a church, or some pastor layin hands on you, or pushing ur head down in water, or a setta shouting and dancin, communion, speakin in tongues..... none of that nonsense or whatever u see with benny hinn and companies. Ur faith results in a personal relationship with God. I hope that answered ur question.
Anyways, i gonna watch the video u recommended and give my views


Faith is belief without evidence and by definition cannot be considered evidence by and of itself. That's a circular reasoning fallacy. But anyway, lets agree to disagree on this one. I'm not as interested in disproving religion as I used to be.

I'm more interested in the effects of religion and atheism because at the end of the day thats what really matters. That debate covers the negatives of both (dogmatic nature of religion and nihilistic/moral relative nature of atheism) as well as potential ways of thinking to overcome them.

The only thing I'll note from your reply is the fact that your belief is internal and you derivision of morality will most likely be as well even though it is inspired by the bible. This is an important distinction and a lot more favourable than religious fundamentalism IMO because you still have the power to battle against religious dogmatism.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby eitech » May 11th, 2019, 4:13 pm

Slartibartfast wrote:
eitech wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
eitech wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
eitech wrote:Well u already expressed ur views on the genesis account so now use repeating my views but we could look at the loopholes u see part by part wrt Man’s fall

No need to beat around the bush. Let's just agree to disagree on those points. Those topics have already been beaten to death by both sides in this thread.

I'm more interested in your unique belief structure. How does your belief differ from other forms of Catholicism and how do you know that you are right? Does this mean that everyone else including the Pope got it wrong? How did you reach to your conclusion?

Just re-quoting cuz I feel like this got buried in the recent activity. I'm still interested in hearing what you have to say though.


Hey i aint forget to reply. Jus been real busy


Cool. If you ever feel interested to really go down the rabbit hole check out the Vancouver debate between Jordan Peterson (clinical psycologist/ believer) and Sam Harris (neuroscientist/ atheist) on youtube. They both make excellent points for and against religion that I never even considered. They go far more in depth than any argument you will come across in this thread and both have a way or articulating ideas that you knew you had but couldn't truly find the words for. I'm sure you would like Jordan Peterson stuff.



Differentiating between my belief and another wont convince anyone of my belief still. One could argue well thats ur interpretation. The key question is how do i know that i am right. Faith is the EVIDENCE of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. If the God i believe in expresses himself through the written word and all he says about himself is true, then it is quite clear that the other religions are not. Many would take offense but thats it. I don’t need to read a hindu, islam, or any other book to know.
But not to stray from the real question, faith IS the evidence. It is the PROOF. Faith that leads to salvation is as easy making up ur mind, a change of heart, a thought. Something so simple and many people miss that point. You can do that in quiet moment alone. It’s not about goin in a church, or some pastor layin hands on you, or pushing ur head down in water, or a setta shouting and dancin, communion, speakin in tongues..... none of that nonsense or whatever u see with benny hinn and companies. Ur faith results in a personal relationship with God. I hope that answered ur question.
Anyways, i gonna watch the video u recommended and give my views


Faith is belief without evidence and by definition cannot be considered evidence by and of itself. That's a circular reasoning fallacy. But anyway, lets agree to disagree on this one. I'm not as interested in disproving religion as I used to be.

I'm more interested in the effects of religion and atheism because at the end of the day thats what really matters. That debate covers the negatives of both (dogmatic nature of religion and nihilistic/moral relative nature of atheism) as well as potential ways of thinking to overcome them.

The only thing I'll note from your reply is the fact that your belief is internal and you derivision of morality will most likely be as well even though it is inspired by the bible. This is an important distinction and a lot more favourable than religious fundamentalism IMO because you still have the power to battle against religious dogmatism.


Bare with me for a moment eh. You say faith is not the evidence but i am telling you it is. 1.Do you understand how that faith is exercised?
2.Do you know how long it will take you to get that evidence once you exercise that faith?
3.In your opinion, what do you think will happen if you exercise that faith?

Awaiting ur response.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby Slartibartfast » May 11th, 2019, 8:13 pm

eitech wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
eitech wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
eitech wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
eitech wrote:Well u already expressed ur views on the genesis account so now use repeating my views but we could look at the loopholes u see part by part wrt Man’s fall

No need to beat around the bush. Let's just agree to disagree on those points. Those topics have already been beaten to death by both sides in this thread.

I'm more interested in your unique belief structure. How does your belief differ from other forms of Catholicism and how do you know that you are right? Does this mean that everyone else including the Pope got it wrong? How did you reach to your conclusion?

Just re-quoting cuz I feel like this got buried in the recent activity. I'm still interested in hearing what you have to say though.


Hey i aint forget to reply. Jus been real busy


Cool. If you ever feel interested to really go down the rabbit hole check out the Vancouver debate between Jordan Peterson (clinical psycologist/ believer) and Sam Harris (neuroscientist/ atheist) on youtube. They both make excellent points for and against religion that I never even considered. They go far more in depth than any argument you will come across in this thread and both have a way or articulating ideas that you knew you had but couldn't truly find the words for. I'm sure you would like Jordan Peterson stuff.



Differentiating between my belief and another wont convince anyone of my belief still. One could argue well thats ur interpretation. The key question is how do i know that i am right. Faith is the EVIDENCE of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. If the God i believe in expresses himself through the written word and all he says about himself is true, then it is quite clear that the other religions are not. Many would take offense but thats it. I don’t need to read a hindu, islam, or any other book to know.
But not to stray from the real question, faith IS the evidence. It is the PROOF. Faith that leads to salvation is as easy making up ur mind, a change of heart, a thought. Something so simple and many people miss that point. You can do that in quiet moment alone. It’s not about goin in a church, or some pastor layin hands on you, or pushing ur head down in water, or a setta shouting and dancin, communion, speakin in tongues..... none of that nonsense or whatever u see with benny hinn and companies. Ur faith results in a personal relationship with God. I hope that answered ur question.
Anyways, i gonna watch the video u recommended and give my views


Faith is belief without evidence and by definition cannot be considered evidence by and of itself. That's a circular reasoning fallacy. But anyway, lets agree to disagree on this one. I'm not as interested in disproving religion as I used to be.

I'm more interested in the effects of religion and atheism because at the end of the day thats what really matters. That debate covers the negatives of both (dogmatic nature of religion and nihilistic/moral relative nature of atheism) as well as potential ways of thinking to overcome them.

The only thing I'll note from your reply is the fact that your belief is internal and you derivision of morality will most likely be as well even though it is inspired by the bible. This is an important distinction and a lot more favourable than religious fundamentalism IMO because you still have the power to battle against religious dogmatism.


Bare with me for a moment eh. You say faith is not the evidence but i am telling you it is. 1.Do you understand how that faith is exercised?
2.Do you know how long it will take you to get that evidence once you exercise that faith?
3.In your opinion, what do you think will happen if you exercise that faith?

Awaiting ur response.
No problem man.

1. So my understanding of faith is that it is a belief that is not based on evidence. "Blessed is he who has not seen and yet believes" sums it up nicely I think. To exercise the faith means that you don't just believe in the teachings of the text but allow it to influence you actions and decisions.

2. I'm guessing that once you have faith (if you are using faith as your evidence) then by having faith you instantaneously gain the proof for it.

3. The effects of exercising the faith can be either good or bad depending on how you let it influence you. Performing charitable work in the name of God is good, keeping yazidi girls as sex slaves is bad. The problem arises when your holy book justifies atrocities and you commit them in good faith.

Now I say using faith as your proof is circular reasoning because you use your conclusion as your premise in the following manner
Premise
I believe that God exists and his teachings are true --> If I believe something then it must be true --> therefore God and his teachings are true because I believe in them --> I believe God exists and his teachings are true

Let me know if I misrepresented your argument or point of view anywhere.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby matr1x » May 11th, 2019, 8:26 pm

If God us real, may he strike us all dead.














Well I am still here

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby bluefete » May 11th, 2019, 10:04 pm

matr1x wrote:If God us real, may he strike us all dead.


Well I am still here


One day we will all be struck down dead. Then you will know that God is real.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby bluefete » May 11th, 2019, 10:16 pm

Slartibartfast wrote:
bluefete wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:Google "God of the gaps" and "Burden of proof"

God of the gaps - Just because there are mechanisms that we do not yet understand does not mean that they are automatically attributable to a God.

Burden of proof - It is your assertion that a God exists. Therefore it is up to you to prove it so. See my previous post about belief in unicorns. Just because you cannot prove that unicorns exist does not autimatically mean that they do. If I want to assert that unicorns exist then I must offer proof for it.

So where is your objective proof that God exists?


It is all around and includes myself.

There is only and will ever only be one of me - ditto for you and everyone else.

That is a miracle that I cannot fathom. Everyone wants God to come and say "Here I am." But he does that everyday in so many different ways.

The problem is that we expect to see some guy with a beard or goatee doing stuff we could never do. That is not how it works.

I find that as I get older, my thoughts sometimes turn to "what's next" after death's door. I know that I will find out eventually just like all the others who have gone before.

But as I have said so many times before - until scientists can tell me why an evolved being like me cannot live to be 500 years, they are just as clueless to death as those who say there is no God.

It is amazing that the non designed universe can throw up humans and other life forms only on this planet, within the precise habitable zone for life to exist. The next time you breathe the air and feel the breeze, ponder how you cannot do that on Mars. This great universe, that made itself from nothing, decided that I can only live for x amount of years and then I must die.

If I move from that I can see God's great design in everything and everyone, including you. That is all the proof I need.


There are like 10 billion galaxies in the observable universe and like 100 billion stars per galaxy and 9 planets around our star.

I agree it is amazing that life can evolve from in animate matter. It is so highly improbable. In fact it is a 1 in a 9,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 chance that life will develop on a previously uninhabited planet. Now take into account the amount of failed starts that occured over the first billion years after the earth cooled in order to form primative life. Then it took another 2.5 billion years for complex life to develop and almost another billion years for humans to appear. That means even the tiniest chance of life developing made it inevitable because of the amount of chances that life had to develop. (So how did this life develop in the first place?How is it possible for humans to develop from an amoeba? How did such variegated life forms develop from one amoeba? The scientific logic breaks down when confronted with human life. Non-believers conveniently ignore that.)

If you want to know why you can't live to 500, well that is mostly well understood. I'm not sure if you are unaware of the mechnism for aging and death or you are making a comment on the the evolutionary purpose of mortality. If its the former then a quick google search can answer you there, if it's the latter then that just seems to be a evolutionary limitation.

Your "proof" doesn't really prove anything. You just decide to attribute everything outside of your understanding to this imaginary being. Just calling it proof doesn't make it so.
For those who do not believe, no explanation is possible.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby bluefete » May 11th, 2019, 10:21 pm

https://wyss.harvard.edu/aging-and-deat ... advantage/

Aging and death may give an evolutionary advantage
September 10, 2015



Evolutionary theory has long held it impossible for there to be genes whose purpose is to limit how long we live, or to cause the familiar symptoms of deterioration with age — and it seems intuitively obvious that a gene contributing to the death or poor health of its owner ought to be opposed by natural selection. (So evolutionary theory is quite wrong because it goes counter to the argument that death is a natural event!)But now a new computer modeling study turns this idea on its head, showing that deliberate mortality can actually give an advantage in the long run.


The findings are described in a new Physical Review Letters paper authored by Wyss Institute Senior Research Scientist Justin Werfel, Ph.D., Wyss Institute Founding Director Donald Ingber, M.D., Ph.D., and New England Complex Systems Institute President Yaneer Bar-Yam, Ph.D.

The key to the mechanism behind the new results lies in how space is taken into account. Traditional theories rely on a hidden assumption that organisms in a population all experience the same environment. But in the paper, Werfel, Ingber and Bar-Yam show that in simulations of evolving systems spread out in space, where the distance organisms can travel is limited — as is typical in the real world — organisms that limit their own lifespan outcompete those that live longer. The way the simulated organisms use resources and shape their local environments gives the self-limiting ones an advantage that may only appear after many generations.

These results help provide a new explanation for observations in nature which the traditional theories have had trouble accounting for, and imply that genetic controls to tune lifespan are likely to exist and may be amenable to medical interventions that could extend healthy lifespans dramatically. (Scientists are still searching for the river of life. Good luck with that. Only God controls life. Neither you or I had any say in how we got here.)

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby FordeG » May 11th, 2019, 11:10 pm

bluefete wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
bluefete wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:Google "God of the gaps" and "Burden of proof"

God of the gaps - Just because there are mechanisms that we do not yet understand does not mean that they are automatically attributable to a God.

Burden of proof - It is your assertion that a God exists. Therefore it is up to you to prove it so. See my previous post about belief in unicorns. Just because you cannot prove that unicorns exist does not autimatically mean that they do. If I want to assert that unicorns exist then I must offer proof for it.

So where is your objective proof that God exists?


It is all around and includes myself.

There is only and will ever only be one of me - ditto for you and everyone else.

That is a miracle that I cannot fathom. Everyone wants God to come and say "Here I am." But he does that everyday in so many different ways.

The problem is that we expect to see some guy with a beard or goatee doing stuff we could never do. That is not how it works.

I find that as I get older, my thoughts sometimes turn to "what's next" after death's door. I know that I will find out eventually just like all the others who have gone before.

But as I have said so many times before - until scientists can tell me why an evolved being like me cannot live to be 500 years, they are just as clueless to death as those who say there is no God.

It is amazing that the non designed universe can throw up humans and other life forms only on this planet, within the precise habitable zone for life to exist. The next time you breathe the air and feel the breeze, ponder how you cannot do that on Mars. This great universe, that made itself from nothing, decided that I can only live for x amount of years and then I must die.

If I move from that I can see God's great design in everything and everyone, including you. That is all the proof I need.


There are like 10 billion galaxies in the observable universe and like 100 billion stars per galaxy and 9 planets around our star.

I agree it is amazing that life can evolve from in animate matter. It is so highly improbable. In fact it is a 1 in a 9,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 chance that life will develop on a previously uninhabited planet. Now take into account the amount of failed starts that occured over the first billion years after the earth cooled in order to form primative life. Then it took another 2.5 billion years for complex life to develop and almost another billion years for humans to appear. That means even the tiniest chance of life developing made it inevitable because of the amount of chances that life had to develop. (So how did this life develop in the first place?How is it possible for humans to develop from an amoeba? How did such variegated life forms develop from one amoeba? The scientific logic breaks down when confronted with human life. Non-believers conveniently ignore that.)

If you want to know why you can't live to 500, well that is mostly well understood. I'm not sure if you are unaware of the mechnism for aging and death or you are making a comment on the the evolutionary purpose of mortality. If its the former then a quick google search can answer you there, if it's the latter then that just seems to be a evolutionary limitation.

Your "proof" doesn't really prove anything. You just decide to attribute everything outside of your understanding to this imaginary being. Just calling it proof doesn't make it so.
For those who do not believe, no explanation is possible.


I'm far from atheist but I believe God used evolution as means of creation. I don't believe the earth is 6000 years old, that modern medicine is unnatural and those backward views.

I'm a Christian and I believe God used the scientific laws (he creates) to shape modern life via the evolution process.

Note something important, science has mountains of evidence proving evolution. Who am I to argue with these experts using religious text as my evidence. It's disingenuous to do so.

But scientists damn well know the odds of life developing on its on are impossible. God created the spark, the universal laws and guided the process to create the plethora of life we have today. Understanding this makes God even more miraculous and ingenious.

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eitech
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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby eitech » May 11th, 2019, 11:27 pm

Slartibartfast wrote:
eitech wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
eitech wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
eitech wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:No need to beat around the bush. Let's just agree to disagree on those points. Those topics have already been beaten to death by both sides in this thread.

I'm more interested in your unique belief structure. How does your belief differ from other forms of Catholicism and how do you know that you are right? Does this mean that everyone else including the Pope got it wrong? How did you reach to your conclusion?

Just re-quoting cuz I feel like this got buried in the recent activity. I'm still interested in hearing what you have to say though.


Hey i aint forget to reply. Jus been real busy


Cool. If you ever feel interested to really go down the rabbit hole check out the Vancouver debate between Jordan Peterson (clinical psycologist/ believer) and Sam Harris (neuroscientist/ atheist) on youtube. They both make excellent points for and against religion that I never even considered. They go far more in depth than any argument you will come across in this thread and both have a way or articulating ideas that you knew you had but couldn't truly find the words for. I'm sure you would like Jordan Peterson stuff.



Differentiating between my belief and another wont convince anyone of my belief still. One could argue well thats ur interpretation. The key question is how do i know that i am right. Faith is the EVIDENCE of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. If the God i believe in expresses himself through the written word and all he says about himself is true, then it is quite clear that the other religions are not. Many would take offense but thats it. I don’t need to read a hindu, islam, or any other book to know.
But not to stray from the real question, faith IS the evidence. It is the PROOF. Faith that leads to salvation is as easy making up ur mind, a change of heart, a thought. Something so simple and many people miss that point. You can do that in quiet moment alone. It’s not about goin in a church, or some pastor layin hands on you, or pushing ur head down in water, or a setta shouting and dancin, communion, speakin in tongues..... none of that nonsense or whatever u see with benny hinn and companies. Ur faith results in a personal relationship with God. I hope that answered ur question.
Anyways, i gonna watch the video u recommended and give my views


Faith is belief without evidence and by definition cannot be considered evidence by and of itself. That's a circular reasoning fallacy. But anyway, lets agree to disagree on this one. I'm not as interested in disproving religion as I used to be.

I'm more interested in the effects of religion and atheism because at the end of the day thats what really matters. That debate covers the negatives of both (dogmatic nature of religion and nihilistic/moral relative nature of atheism) as well as potential ways of thinking to overcome them.

The only thing I'll note from your reply is the fact that your belief is internal and you derivision of morality will most likely be as well even though it is inspired by the bible. This is an important distinction and a lot more favourable than religious fundamentalism IMO because you still have the power to battle against religious dogmatism.


Bare with me for a moment eh. You say faith is not the evidence but i am telling you it is. 1.Do you understand how that faith is exercised?
2.Do you know how long it will take you to get that evidence once you exercise that faith?
3.In your opinion, what do you think will happen if you exercise that faith?

Awaiting ur response.
No problem man.

1. So my understanding of faith is that it is a belief that is not based on evidence. "Blessed is he who has not seen and yet believes" sums it up nicely I think. To exercise the faith means that you don't just believe in the teachings of the text but allow it to influence you actions and decisions.

2. I'm guessing that once you have faith (if you are using faith as your evidence) then by having faith you instantaneously gain the proof for it.

3. The effects of exercising the faith can be either good or bad depending on how you let it influence you. Performing charitable work in the name of God is good, keeping yazidi girls as sex slaves is bad. The problem arises when your holy book justifies atrocities and you commit them in good faith.

Now I say using faith as your proof is circular reasoning because you use your conclusion as your premise in the following manner
Premise
I believe that God exists and his teachings are true --> If I believe something then it must be true --> therefore God and his teachings are true because I believe in them --> I believe God exists and his teachings are true

Let me know if I misrepresented your argument or point of view anywhere.


1. Consider a person on their death bed and i told them to believe on the Lord Jesus and thou shalt be saved. A person in such a scenario wouldn’t even know about teachings from the text and as such cannot act upon that due to their current situation. If he just believes alone is the point i trying to make. You dont have to do anything prior. Just believe.


2. If point 1 is the action, and i said after believing u would have proof. What hinders a person from taking a moment if the result is instant?

I wont comment on what was said after. I am trying to get the foundation clear as day.

I tried explaining the concept of trust to someone else last week and it is hard for the unbeliever to grasp, i mean i was once there. But as i think of it more i am realising that trust may not be the actually issue, but the desire to know the truth has to be real. God will only reveal himself to you if you have that desire.

That sam harris/ jordan peterson debate was interesting. Alot of words i had to google. Lol. But those guys put alot of time and effort into their research. Not everyone can afford to to that, certainly not me. I have had only one source material and yet i could have related to many things he said if you look past the eloquent vocabulary.

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby bluefete » May 12th, 2019, 7:32 pm

FordeG wrote:I'm far from atheist but I believe God used evolution as means of creation. I don't believe the earth is 6000 years old, that modern medicine is unnatural and those backward views.

I'm a Christian and I believe God used the scientific laws (he creates) to shape modern life via the evolution process.

Note something important, science has mountains of evidence proving evolution. Who am I to argue with these experts using religious text as my evidence. It's disingenuous to do so.

But scientists damn well know the odds of life developing on its on are impossible. God created the spark, the universal laws and guided the process to create the plethora of life we have today. Understanding this makes God even more miraculous and ingenious.


Makes plenty sense.

There was a time I gave this active consideration. The only way I could see evolution working is exactly as you stated. God gave it the spark and then let it run.

The only problem I had is the concept that humans and dinosaurs did not live at the same time. We are told that "something" wiped out the dinosaurs. Could humans have survived and adapted to the new environment?

In the great flood, didn't humans adapt to the new environment by living shorter lives?

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Re: The Religion Discussion

Postby maj. tom » May 12th, 2019, 7:33 pm

And where God came from?

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