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Which residential water pump to buy?

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nissan4life
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Re: Which residential water pump to buy?

Postby nissan4life » December 2nd, 2015, 8:27 am

Thanks pugboy, the shaft seal can be bought at any hardware that sells pentax or only rotoplastic?
remind me again is the fan or impellor the one that is mounted counterclockwise?
Always get that part mixed up

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Re: Which residential water pump to buy?

Postby axe » December 2nd, 2015, 11:28 pm

using DAB for 3 plus years...no problems....Ramlagans

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Re: Which residential water pump to buy?

Postby Redman » December 7th, 2015, 12:27 pm

ok.
I just put in a new pentax 3/4.

I havent put a check valve...I thought there was one where it supposed to be.
there isnt one

The pump is building pressure then cutting off. 35psi to 50...5 seconds off and on about.
Pressure immediately drops and the cycle starts over.

what could cause this?

Also should I put the check valve on the intake side(never did this before)

thanks

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Re: Which residential water pump to buy?

Postby JaiTech » December 7th, 2015, 2:41 pm

Redman wrote:ok.
I just put in a new pentax 3/4.

I havent put a check valve...I thought there was one where it supposed to be.
there isnt one

The pump is building pressure then cutting off. 35psi to 50...5 seconds off and on about.
Pressure immediately drops and the cycle starts over.

what could cause this?

Also should I put the check valve on the intake side(never did this before)

thanks
their should be a check valve between tank and pump if it's not their you will experience this problem

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Re: Which residential water pump to buy?

Postby Redman » December 7th, 2015, 2:59 pm

Well I put one on and the same thing is happening.
Arrow pointing toward the tank
No leaks,no taps on...

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Re: Which residential water pump to buy?

Postby crazybalhead » December 7th, 2015, 3:58 pm

Redman wrote:Well I put one on and the same thing is happening.
Arrow pointing toward the tank
No leaks,no taps on...


Pressure tank meng. Push eeen the valve, if water fly out change it. If it have air, use a tyre gauge and check the pressure.

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Re: Which residential water pump to buy?

Postby pugboy » December 7th, 2015, 4:06 pm

put the check valve on output of pump and pointing away from pump
so pressure from pressure tank cannot go back into pump and tank.
if you are merging house wasa line with pump you will need at least another to avoid pumping your tank water back to wasa

Redman wrote:Well I put one on and the same thing is happening.
Arrow pointing toward the tank
No leaks,no taps on...

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Re: Which residential water pump to buy?

Postby 3stagevtec » December 7th, 2015, 4:51 pm

wheelbarrow wrote:
3stagevtec wrote:
wheelbarrow wrote:½HP is adequate,

make sure its not one of those small peripheral pumps that the hardwares like to sell as a domestic pump.


What's the problem with those?


Those pumps can't produce the volume of water needed to supply anything more than one outlet. The moment you turn on a second tap the volume of water drops drastically. They are really built for small volume water transfer.
The reason the hardwares sell it is due to the relatively cheaper price.


I am using a small Pentax peripheral pump PM45 with smart head and a 2 gallon pressure tank for 2 years now. No problems at all and no issues with flow rates. I can run 2 showers and a faucet simultaneously without any performance issues.

The smart head regulates the pressure and the pressure tank eliminates unnecessary cycling. If you have a pump with a smart head, I would strongly recommend installing an appropriately sized pressure tank. Smart head alone cycles too often..

I bought the pump for $700 (IIRC) at Gopaul Lands Hardware Marabella with smart head included. I had also emailed Pentax directly and they said it could be used for domestic use, no problem. I have 3/4" PVC lines run throughout my house and the baby Pentax flows almost identical to a 1/2hp Goulds at my parents house. They have 1/2" lines run throughout.. so.. take note of how much line size affect flow rates. (Yes, I actually timed both pumps for flow rates)

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Re: Which residential water pump to buy?

Postby Redman » December 7th, 2015, 5:28 pm

crazybalhead wrote:
Redman wrote:Well I put one on and the same thing is happening.
Arrow pointing toward the tank
No leaks,no taps on...


Pressure tank meng. Push eeen the valve, if water fly out change it. If it have air, use a tyre gauge and check the pressure.

New pressure tank.

Will check the pressure tomorrow.

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Re: Which residential water pump to buy?

Postby nissan4life » December 7th, 2015, 10:48 pm

REDMAN first off if you are using a pump with a pressure tank you ll have a control switch which is a grey D shaped box that controls the cut in and cut off of the pump.
The short cycyling on your pump could be over pressurized bladder, pressure switch ,loss of air in system.
Seeing this is a new pump lets not mes with this and try the basic first caz i doubt its the switch or pressure tank that is failing.

The pressure drops and pumps comes back on because you are loosing pressure somewhere.
A good example would be the float in toilet tank. This could have toilet constantly fulling and u ll never know caz its wud slowly do this once the float reaches its cut off point and take into consideration you ll never see the the toilet tanks overflow caz they have an overflow pipe
Youre not looking for a big leak,leaking pvc joints or leaking facet can cause this
Also the one way valve should be put inbetween the water tank and the pump with the arrow facing towards the pvc line leading into the pump.
The direction the arrow is pointing is the direction of the water, as the pump cuts off the valve closes and stops water from going back into your tank. The pressure you trying to maintain is inbetween the water tank and the pressurized tank on the pump.


On another note, las week i noticed around my pump was extremely wet, on closer inspection i realized everytime the pump came on water was flying out by the shaft. Thanks to pugboy and wheelbarrow i got the answer. Shaft seal!!!!!. I had a pentax pump before for 15 yrs and never changed this. This new pump maybe just clocked a yr and this crap came up.

Heres the work around.

Unplug pump, unbolt 4 bolts holding pump halves together, using a screw driver i slowly separated the two halves( be careful as there is a rubber seal, now you guys know what inside you one yr old pump looks like.rust)
IMG_20151205_082242996_HDR.jpg


Tap out the fan cover, take you time and pull out the fan.Used a big wrench to hold the shaft on fan side and a 17 socket to break the impeller nut off the shaft(counterclockwise to loosen)

Once the pump was separated it took me a while but i was able to pry the old shaft seal out. had to use some lubricant on the shaft itself.Using a flat head screw driver, i pried piece by piece around the seal while turning the shaft.
IMG_20151205_082257267_HDR.jpg


After getting that out i realised something was missing, i had extra parts with the new shaft seal. Turn pump motor around and take out 4 10mm screws and tap the back out.
IMG_20151205_082337125.jpg

Then tap the shaft from the impeller side out.( i used a piece of wood ontop the shaft threads and tapped that as to not damage the threads.
IMG_20151205_082827424.jpg


Thats out,and still didnt know how the ass i getting the seals. turn to front half and gently tap the front cover off too.
IMG_20151205_083148995_HDR.jpg


Thought that was it,wrong, there is a hard white plastic and another rubber seal there( hard to see, didnt want to chance it as i was already in the pump, changed all one time)
IMG_20151205_083203325.jpg


once you get front cover off, i tapped out white hard plastic, pulled out rubber reinstalled the new ones, put back everything including the shaft and then slide new shaft seal on.(used some grease on mine to slide it in easy)
IMG_20151205_095530780.jpg


All parts installed, reversed process and re-assembled everything, put grease on 14mm nuts as to make it easy to remove in future and stop rust from elements


PLZ NB...
1. I was given a shaft seal that was wrong and had to go back. I suggest taking this off first or asking for the correct one. This specific pump is a cam 75 and uses a 1/2-3/4 shaft seal
2. I am not responsible if you try this and firetruck up your pump. do at your own risk as you have to have some patience and have some technical mechanical experience.
Last edited by nissan4life on December 8th, 2015, 8:11 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Which residential water pump to buy?

Postby pugboy » December 8th, 2015, 5:48 am

Nice, you are a pump service expert now :)

Note, be careful with the white mating parts of the shaft seal, they are precisely flat to mesh together
and spin but not let water pass, so any dirt getting between will abrade the surface.
Maybe when yours was assembled at factory some dirt got inbetween and eventually caused it to leak.

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Re: Which residential water pump to buy?

Postby Redman » December 8th, 2015, 8:08 am

Thanks for the replies ..it was based on them I went back in the dark and chook it again.

The problem was that one of the tanks was connected to the intake line..I guess as a way to fill it.
That connection was between the check valve I installed and the pump...I thought I closed off the valve earlier....I opened it to feed the pump when testing.

SO we good.


Of course now that the pump is working...there is plenty water on the line.

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Re: Which residential water pump to buy?

Postby nissan4life » December 8th, 2015, 8:21 am

Good to know you got thru redman.
One way valve along with unions are usually placed closest to pump to avoid errors like this and for any work to be done in future without cutting any lines.

Have this fixed as to not forget in the future and burnout the switch and/or pump motor

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Re: Which residential water pump to buy?

Postby caglowe » May 19th, 2017, 9:14 am

Guys not sure what's the problem i'm having, I bought a new Pentax 1/2 HP pump installed it and the pump keeps coming on and off constantly with a clicking sound, yes the pump was installed properly and the cavity was filled with water and the air bled out of the pump before it was started ....when i have a tap open the pump comes on and off constantly and the pressure fluctuates because the pump is coming off and on....I have a professional who suppose to check it out but that's in a week and don't want to stay without a pump so long. My thoughts are the pressure tank needs more air but i don't want to destroy a new pump with trial and error. Any suggestion or have anyone encounter such problem ?

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Re: Which residential water pump to buy?

Postby wheelbarrow » May 19th, 2017, 9:19 am

caglowe wrote:Guys not sure what's the problem i'm having, I bought a new Pentax 1/2 HP pump installed it and the pump keeps coming on and off constantly with a clicking sound, yes the pump was installed properly and the cavity was filled with water and the air bled out of the pump before it was started ....when i have a tap open the pump comes on and off constantly and the pressure fluctuates because the pump is coming off and on....I have a professional who suppose to check it out but that's in a week and don't want to stay without a pump so long. My thoughts are the pressure tank needs more air but i don't want to destroy a new pump with trial and error. Any suggestion or have anyone encounter such problem ?



Sounds like the pressure switch has to be adjusted.
Does this "on and off" happen when all the taps/faucets in the house are off?

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Re: Which residential water pump to buy?

Postby caglowe » May 19th, 2017, 9:22 am

Yes..... even when all end users are closed off you still hear the clicking like if it wants to start

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Re: Which residential water pump to buy?

Postby wheelbarrow » May 19th, 2017, 9:35 am

Hmm. Do you have a checkvalve between the water tanks and the pump?

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Re: Which residential water pump to buy?

Postby caglowe » May 19th, 2017, 1:06 pm

Yes there is a check valve upstream and down stream the pump

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Re: Which residential water pump to buy?

Postby nissan4life » May 19th, 2017, 3:01 pm

caglowe as wheelbarrow said this sounds like a pressure switch problem
Have you checked the psi in the tank, what is it?
Whats your cut on(starting) psi like?
Your cutoff psi shouldnt be less than the pressure in the bladder nor should it be so high that the pump cannot reach the cut off psi.
Bigger Nut raise/drops cut on & off pressures.
Smaller Nut to raise/drop cut off pressure only

You need to look at your gauge at all times to see what effect it has (tighening/clockwise raises pressure and loosening/anticlockwise drops pressure), adjust your cut on and off psi first and then adjust smaller nut to get your cut off point for higher psi ( this should solve your problem)

If that doesnt work and its doing it with all water outlets closed it means you are loosing pressure ( but this doesnt happen rapidly, should be a decline in the psi until the switch triggers the pump again)
you could have a leak or a bad one way valve which causing the pressure to drop in the tank.

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Re: Which residential water pump to buy?

Postby airuma » May 19th, 2017, 3:33 pm

The pressure gauge will tell you if you are losing pressure even if all valves are closed. If your pump is coming off and on with a tap open... I would say your pressures are too low or you have a restriction somewhere along the discharge line hence the pumps is reaching maximum pressure even though the tap is on..... but most pumps come pre-adjusted to 20-40 I think. You should also have a check valve on the suction side

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Re: Which residential water pump to buy?

Postby adnj » May 19th, 2017, 5:50 pm

Modern pumps do not require an additional check valve. Using check valves before and after a pump is an old plumber's trick to hide a faulty pump problem.

Use a check valve to introduce WASA supply pressure (one after your pressure tank and one on the WASA line into a tee) . An unnecessary check valve after the pump pressure sensor can create pressure spikes that can cause pump cycling.

Only use a suction side check valve if the supply water column is BELOW the pump. I doubt that you are pumping from a retention pond, which is one of the few instances when this be required.
Last edited by adnj on May 19th, 2017, 5:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Which residential water pump to buy?

Postby pugboy » May 19th, 2017, 5:54 pm

first thing is make sure your pump is not pumping water back to wasa

lock off your mains from wasa in road to house and then lock off the output from the pump as close as possible to the pump
also you should have a lockoff on the intake to the pump(at tank) and a check valve to prevent water going back to tank.

once all above locked off the pump should stay put, open back the wasa main and see if pump starts to run when output from pump is also opened
if so then very likely your check valve at wasa mains is leaking and allowing pump to send water back to road
also check no toilets etc are leaking or worse case a buss pipe under ground

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Re: Which residential water pump to buy?

Postby caglowe » May 19th, 2017, 10:33 pm

Thanks for all the info I will tackle the pump in the morning and give feed back ...just to confirm I did lock off the main supply and the issue still occurs I will check the pressure in the tank and report back

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Re: Which residential water pump to buy?

Postby airuma » May 19th, 2017, 11:11 pm

adnj wrote:Modern pumps do not require an additional check valve. Using check valves before and after a pump is an old plumber's trick to hide a faulty pump problem.

Use a check valve to introduce WASA supply pressure (one after your pressure tank and one on the WASA line into a tee) . An unnecessary check valve after the pump pressure sensor can create pressure spikes that can cause pump cycling.

Only use a suction side check valve if the supply water column is BELOW the pump. I doubt that you are pumping from a retention pond, which is one of the few instances when this be required.

Apart from it not being necessary, is there a problem with placing a check valve on the suction side? I installed a new DAB pump about 7 years ago and even though the instructions did not indicate that a check valve was necessary on the suction side, I kept losing pressure and the pump kept cycling. This only stopped when I placed the check valve on the suction side, so I would put it even if it's not necessary.

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Re: Which residential water pump to buy?

Postby pugboy » May 20th, 2017, 3:46 am

I would think the check valve on the suction is very necessary otherwise pressure would leak backwards over the impeller and back to the tank supply.

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Re: Which residential water pump to buy?

Postby adnj » May 20th, 2017, 4:47 am

Pressure reversing into the pump toward the inlet indicates a faulty pump which already has flow-check built-in. Adding a check valve is a well-worn method to attempt to deal with the problem. The extra valve may cause a minor delay in pump pressure buildup and increase wear on the unit but may not significantly impact useful life.

It can be done. It's not necessary. It's not recommended. You're just spending money on parts that you don't need that helps to hide potential problems later on.

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Re: Which residential water pump to buy?

Postby pugboy » May 20th, 2017, 5:25 am

I have dismantled both goulds and pentax, there is no flow check of any type built in
the tolerances of the impeller in the housing are very close but could never be expected to be water tight.

you may have experienced a situation where it worked without a check valve on intake because the tank height head gravity was enough to counter any back bleeding

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Re: Which residential water pump to buy?

Postby caglowe » May 20th, 2017, 10:06 am

The pressure in the pressure tank is 40 psi

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Re: Which residential water pump to buy?

Postby pugboy » May 20th, 2017, 10:24 am

you need to find out what is bleeding off the pressure
change the pressure switch to eliminate one possible unknown

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Re: Which residential water pump to buy?

Postby caglowe » May 20th, 2017, 10:41 am

Thank you my tuner family it was the cut off pressure set way too low ...now everything is sorted and functioning properly

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