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Race and Crime

Postby kstt » April 25th, 2018, 1:55 am

I hope this doesn't become a racial thread and deleted. Read this with the thought I was African and not Indian and you may not see it as racial because if an African wrote this it would not be seen as racial but factual.

I was wondering how much does race determine underachievement

I have been told by a certain race that I am racial time and time again when I try to honestly carry out my duties at work when a certain race is not allowed to do what they want or get their way (enforcement of policies).

It is so easy to use the RACE CARD and more and more we are seeing it becoming prevalent in every aspect of life.

A certain race always conveniently use the race card which makes me wonder if this pity excuse is the reason the majority of the same race has been underachievers and have filled our prison system.

If you grow up hearing your parents talking about race and the reason they haven't gotten something or they haven't achieved something was about race. Example some people say the majority of doctors are a certain race because of, well, race! You will blame every failure in your life on race you will feel you cannot achieve anything and succeed in life and will not expect being better and working to the best of your ability because you have this mental suppressor about race keeping you down. Your parents shape your thinking and by extension your future so if you grow up in this negative environment chances are you will only live this negative life blaming race and not achieving your full potential.

A other good example is how many years after slavery people still think they are owed something or are entitled to something because of the suffering of their ancestors.

As I read something the other day online

None of us were slaves and none of us have relatives who were slaves or know a slave. None of us were slave owners and none of us have relatives who were slave owners or know slave owners. SO GET OVER IT!!


Coming back to my point maybe this race card and slavery and holding it in such high esteem to use whenever convenient may be the reason why people are underachievers and result in crime and criminal activity.

We need to promote positive thinking to bring positive results and achieve our full potential.

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Re: Race and Crime

Postby Daran » April 25th, 2018, 3:31 am

It's not due to racism black people under achieve. It's black culture, upbringing, black race perception and pnm dependence. No easy fix at all.

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Re: Race and Crime

Postby zoom rader » April 25th, 2018, 4:29 am

There is only one race in Trinidad and its called the PNM.

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Re: Race and Crime

Postby kstt » April 25th, 2018, 4:54 am

It can't be a PNM thing because it's a worldwide thing. Worldwide they cry race and oppression because of slavery.

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Re: Race and Crime

Postby meccalli » April 25th, 2018, 5:46 am

http://www.guardian.co.tt/lifestyle/201 ... art-system
Prof Ramesh Deosaran’s data-driven new book sheds light on inequity in the education system
Raymond Ramcharitar
Published:
Wednesday, August 3, 2016

In Inequality, Crime & Education in Trinidad and Tobago: Removing the Masks, Ramesh Deosaran brings into the light of scrutiny a subject that’s plagued the society for many years, and to which much talk and money have been directed with unsatisfactory results. That the education system is in a state of trauma and failure, and desperately needs some kind of intervention, all agree. What to do, and the specific problems, are not so clear. Refreshingly, Prof Deosaran has at his disposal several years of empirical survey and statistical data he mobilises to illustrate his points as he examines the educational system in detail. He also has suggestions as to how to fix it.

The book is divided into 16 chapters, and begins with socio-educational history (from the 19th century), and moves through the postcolonial predicament, the chasm between “prestige” and government schools, the Concordat, the SEA and primary schools, and ethnic and class conflict in education. The tertiary system is mentioned, but as an end-point of primary and secondary systems.

The abundance of data is reassuring, since the title suggests an uncomfortable relationship among crime, inequality, and a failed education system. This implicates race, class and geography in familiar, toxic patterns, which are discussed in frequently hostile terms in the public sphere. The reality is that students of African descent, from the lower economic classes, from socio-economically depressed areas tend to fare the worst in the school system. The data show this clearly. What is not so clear is why.

A large part of the reason, according to Deosaran, is the legacy of colonialism, indenture and slavery. He writes of the pre-independence educational environmental environment that “the education system in terms of curriculum and enrolment, was riddled with social and class distinctions and racial marginalisation”. In the post-colonial period, education was touted as the great equalizer, but the access and attitudes to it were shaped by the issues of race and class.

According to contemporary data, 47 per cent of students of African origin entered university three years after high school, while 72 per cent of Indians, and 49 per cent of the mixed group did. Furthermore, “entering university seems to be the preferred route for Form Five graduates of East Indian descent”. This has as much to do with the culture and socialisation of the students (family and community support) as it does with ethnicity. He notes the aspirations of students (today) from the lower economic classes are more fanciful about education, seeing it as a symbolic fetish rather than a realisable goal.

Apart from ethnicity, other data collected include tracking surveys to determine whether student outcomes are dependent on schools attended. It’s no surprise that students from “prestige” schools fare better and access more education. The data show that “as many as 71 per cent of students from (prestige) schools chose to ‘study only’ after the fifth form, compared with 34 and 28 per cent from government secondary and other government schools”.

Notwithstanding, there is some good news. The proportions of those who accessed tertiary education (by social class) show that there is a significant “gate crasher” class: 41 per cent of those in tertiary education are from the lower social economic classes. This implies social mobility, and not in a small way.

Deosaran specifically roots the ethnic and cultural dimension of the educational inequity in the phenomenon of Plantation society. He proposes that a fundamental distrust of authority and mistrust among competing ethnic groups were transmitted culturally through the last century-and-a-half. He calls the Plantation with its unjustifiably oppressive laws, and its failure to give Africans and Indians a stake in the society, a “criminogenic breeding ground” which makes “turning to crime ... a rational adventure”.

Indeed, he writes, Plantation logic determines the dynamics of education and the system—its inequity in the disbursement of education, and the promise of social mobility vs a praxis of “job preparation”, usually for repetitive, unimaginative, and dreary work.

Another consequence of Plantation society and its bourgeois aspirations is a strong, culturally reinforced bias to university education, and low status ascribed to technical and vocational education. Deosaran’s data reveal that 80 per cent of First Formers opted for a future in university, and only five per cent opted for technical vocational. In the tech-voc programmes the national pass rate is around 30 per cent.

Such a system, with its manifest unfairness in the placement of a small minority of students in “prestige” places, and the mass in less-than-desirable schools, leads to a “psychology of failure” which mutates into other social pathologies, like crime. This is expatiated upon at length in Chapter 15, “Strain, Failed Ambitions and Crime”, where he identifies specifically the East-West Corridor as an enabling environment for the inversion of civic values. That is, the gangster culture seems to lead to acceptance and approval, while conventional aspirations are looked down upon.

Inequality, Crime & Education provides a great deal of valuable and usable information on the education system in T&T. It concludes with 14 recommendations which serve as a starting point for reform of the system. It also provides an admirable statement of the goal of education, which is contained in the national education plan. The aim of education should be to create “a spiritually, morally, physically, intellectually and emotionally sound individual”.

That said, the book does not adequately address a few crucial issues. Some statements are made, but questions are not asked. The work ethic in denominational schools is higher than in government schools (as measured by teacher attendance and punctuality, in addition to student performance) (p130). Why is this so? Examining this would provide a tremendous insight into the problem.

And therein lies a contentious issue: Deosaran writes with a decidedly populist orientation, which at times panders to strong contemporary emotional views on ethnicity and social relations, and omits relevant historical facts. For example in his introduction, he writes of the emergence of a “black, male underclass,” which is the endpoint of the systemic dysfunctionality. He cites an IDB report by way of confirmation, which states “improving education equality is implicitly related to ethnic equality.”

He writes of “inequity” as a zero-sum game: as if those who access and benefit from the system take something away from those who access the same system at different points. But inequity is a more complicated phenomenon, addressed in a gush of literature in books like Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the 21st Century, and others like Identity Economics by Akerlof and Kranton, and Behavioural Economics by Richard Thaler. These link inequality to contemporary predator capitalism and its resultant wealth distribution.

Deosaran does mention capitalism as a determinant of the educational dynamic, in terms of the type of education required for its ideal workforce, but does not pursue it adequately. Indeed, Deosaran's main theme sounds like the victimisation argument: that the system is somehow stacked against the poor African segment of the population. A Nation of Islam representative is quoted, as are calypsos by Gypsy and Cro Cro. It’s all taken literally, not placed into a context of neo-Garveyism and its iterations post-1970. Neither does proposition of the victimisation of black children face the fact that T&T has been governed by black governments (as opposed to Indo-led governments) for 44 of its 54 years of Independence.

Other crucial elements, like community, environmental and parental stability are mentioned, but as seemingly unrelated variables. Deosaran does link educational outcomes to “what we do elsewhere in the economy, polity and society”, but does not pursue this line of argument. Many ideas are put forward, all of them plausible and data-supported, but there is no overarching theory or explanation linking the book together, explaining what has led to the present state of affairs.

Two critical elements Deosaran ignores are the heterogeneity of the black population, and the high “churn rate” in population in the last generation especially. Like most social researchers, he ignores the fact that almost a quarter of the population emigrated between 1962 and 1990, and were replaced by immigrants from the other islands. These immigrants ended up usually in squatter communities or in the most socio-economically depressed areas along the East-West Corridor.

It is the children and grandchildren of these immigrants who constitute the most disadvantaged segment of the educational population. While there is a marked hostility to this fact, it is documented and some community activists, like the late George Alleyne, sought to bring it to national attention.

In a letter to the editor published in the Newsday on September 3, 2013, Alleyne, who worked in Beetham Gardens for a number of years, wrote: “An undeniable part of the problem flows from disaffected youths being either illegal immigrants or the children of illegal immigrants…parents who were illegal immigrants were afraid to seek to have their children, although they (the children) were born here, registered at state and state assisted schools for fear of their immigration status being revealed and being deported. As a result, a sizable number of children in Beetham Gardens never received a formal education and some can neither read nor write.”

Finally, Inequality, Crime and Education is an important and timely work. It provides a starting point for discussion and further research, and more importantly, action on fixing the education system.

BOOK INFO

Inequality, Crime & Education

in Trinidad and Tobago:

Removing the Masks

By Ramesh Deosaran

Ian Randle Publishers, 2016

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Re: Race and Crime

Postby hydroep » April 25th, 2018, 5:51 am

Lack of conscientiousness transcends all races yes, it's just that they use different excuses.

Generally speaking:

*People of African descent cry racism because it's a time-tested excuse.
*Caucasians always have some sort of illness.
*Asians pretend to be naive.

etc...etc...etc...

Morgan Freeman is one of the finer examples of "rising above your circumstances" and hits race-baiter Don Lemon for six in this interview:


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Re: Race and Crime

Postby sMASH » April 25th, 2018, 6:36 am

clutch slip.

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Re: Race and Crime

Postby Sundar » April 25th, 2018, 7:27 am

Attitude determines where you'll reach.

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Re: Race and Crime

Postby zoom rader » April 25th, 2018, 7:31 am

I always said our crime problems sterms from illegal immigrants. Good to see Prof Dosaran wrote up on this.

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Re: Race and Crime

Postby shake d livin wake d dead » April 25th, 2018, 7:56 am

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_wnmcysbM1g

If a white d sing this song...but this song pretty much sums up what the op is trying to say

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Re: Race and Crime

Postby kstt » April 25th, 2018, 8:35 am

This race ting so enshrined in thinking that even a PNM government previously attempted lowering the entry requirements for NIHERST for Africans. Well let's dont talk about UWI and UWI Mt Hope, which they suggested but was ignored. Imagine that, an educational institution based on ethnicity and not education! So much so they went to establish their own lower level, watered down UTT.

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Re: Race and Crime

Postby kstt » April 25th, 2018, 8:42 am

hydroep wrote:Lack of conscientiousness transcends all races yes, it's just that they use different excuses.

Generally speaking:

*People of African descent cry racism because it's a time-tested excuse.
*Caucasians always have some sort of illness.
*Asians pretend to be naive.

etc...etc...etc...

Morgan Freeman is one of the finer examples of "rising above your circumstances" and hits race-baiter Don Lemon for six in this interview:



Some would say it was just a question he had to ask some will argue this educated accomplished reporter still have race issues as well.

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Re: Race and Crime

Postby shake d livin wake d dead » April 25th, 2018, 8:44 am

Costatt et al were established for a reason...my opinion is majority of black people like the fast way out while the small minority try to make a difference...

Look at beyond the take...look at the ratio of Africans to Indians on the most wanted list...look at the videos wrt to robberies etc etc...look at the ratio of Indians to Africans wrt to murder victims...

This is not a race thing...is just facts...but when a injun say these things...black people quick to say race and oppression...

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Re: Race and Crime

Postby kstt » April 25th, 2018, 8:50 am

"The reality is that students of African descent, from the lower economic classes, from socio-economically depressed areas tend to fare the worst in the school system. The data show this clearly. What is not so clear is why. "

The question is why are they in lower economic classes? Because of race?
Or is it bad choices as PM Rowley so rightly said. You choose a player you get left behind as a single parent you have a crappy job because you were a result of a bad decision resulting in a single parent and the cycle continues.

It is not race IT IS YOU!! YOUR CHOICES!!

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Re: Race and Crime

Postby kstt » April 25th, 2018, 8:53 am

My parents never pound race in my head they never blamed the government. They did what they had to do. They pounded education and hard work in my head and not to expect anything from anyone. Work for what you want. With their support of course, both parents. They had both parents as well. BOTH PARENTS and the cycle continues, God willing!

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Re: Race and Crime

Postby kstt » April 25th, 2018, 9:34 am

shake d livin wake d dead wrote:This is not a race thing...is just facts...but when a injun say these things...black people quick to say race and oppression...


my point exactly!


It would be good to get input from my African brothers and sisters about the importance of race in their life and why.



Now we seeing the effects of all this race playing out and biting the hand that feeds them literally. The PNM who encouraged the give me mentality and secured high paying jobs for those who did not deserve is the same PNM who cannot control crime and has to try to change the same mindset they encouraged for their existence. It came back to bite them in their arse.
Last edited by kstt on April 25th, 2018, 9:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Race and Crime

Postby hydroep » April 25th, 2018, 9:38 am

Firm believer in a child having both a mother and a father. Recently watched a documentary which lamented the absence of fathers in several areas of Britain and the consequent negative effects on offspring.

Deadbeat dads are a significant part of the equation but more worrisome is the ever increasing number of single parent families appear to be by choice...made by "strong independent women" of course and they're proud of it. In light of current research on the topic that seems pretty selfish when you think about it...:|

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Re: Race and Crime

Postby kstt » April 25th, 2018, 9:40 am

Independent ladies while Beyonce hug up she husband and family!

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Re: Race and Crime

Postby nemisis » April 25th, 2018, 10:42 am

still pushing this absentee black fathers myth??
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr071.pdf

https://www.washingtonpost.com/postever ... 0b3a7f2ad8

Doesn't have an easy source for local statistics so left recent american article and papaer.
Feel free to ignore and carry on...

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Re: Race and Crime

Postby The_Honourable » April 25th, 2018, 1:33 pm

Daran wrote:It's not due to racism black people under achieve. It's black culture, upbringing, black race perception and pnm dependence. No easy fix at all.


THIS!

hydroep wrote:Firm believer in a child having both a mother and a father. Recently watched a documentary which lamented the absence of fathers in several areas of Britain and the consequent negative effects on offspring.

Deadbeat dads are a significant part of the equation but more worrisome is the ever increasing number of single parent families appear to be by choice...made by "strong independent women" of course and they're proud of it. In light of current research on the topic that seems pretty selfish when you think about it...:|


THIS!

kstt wrote:It can't be a PNM thing because it's a worldwide thing. Worldwide they cry race and oppression because of slavery.


To a degree, is more of a western black problem.

The breakup of the black family decimated the black community. Drugs, materialism and black feminism screwed over the black man while welfare, single motherhood, and sexualization of the female focusing on the butt screwed over the black female. Media and music had a part to play amplifying and normalizing the issue. Throw in non-blacks who finance and import drugs into the community.

Products of these unions is either effeminate boys or over-masculine men. For the girls, they grow up not knowing what a father figure is or even develop a bias towards black men in relationships. Media and music again makes the situation worse depicting a real man as a sports player or musician singing about the streets, while a real woman have a loud mouth and a big butt.

Then we have the victimhood mentality.... everything is not their fault. Is the white man, jew, trump, police, illumanati, indian, chinee, coons, ongoing legacy of slavery etc. We want reparations and we shall overcome someday. Welfare is our reparations but some black men prefer d white woman as their reparations, and some black woman prefer the white man.

Throw in civil rights leaders and SJW's pimping off the problems of the black community. Add all of this together and you see why things are so facked up.

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Re: Race and Crime

Postby Sundar » April 25th, 2018, 2:36 pm

The_Honourable wrote:
Daran wrote:It's not due to racism black people under achieve. It's black culture, upbringing, black race perception and pnm dependence. No easy fix at all.


THIS!

hydroep wrote:Firm believer in a child having both a mother and a father. Recently watched a documentary which lamented the absence of fathers in several areas of Britain and the consequent negative effects on offspring.

Deadbeat dads are a significant part of the equation but more worrisome is the ever increasing number of single parent families appear to be by choice...made by "strong independent women" of course and they're proud of it. In light of current research on the topic that seems pretty selfish when you think about it...:|


THIS!

kstt wrote:It can't be a PNM thing because it's a worldwide thing. Worldwide they cry race and oppression because of slavery.


To a degree, is more of a western black problem.

The breakup of the black family decimated the black community. Drugs, materialism and black feminism screwed over the black man while welfare, single motherhood, and sexualization of the female focusing on the butt screwed over the black female. Media and music had a part to play amplifying and normalizing the issue. Throw in non-blacks who finance and import drugs into the community.

Products of these unions is either effeminate boys or over-masculine men. For the girls, they grow up not knowing what a father figure is or even develop a bias towards black men in relationships. Media and music again makes the situation worse depicting a real man as a sports player or musician singing about the streets, while a real woman have a loud mouth and a big butt.

Then we have the victimhood mentality.... everything is not their fault. Is the white man, jew, trump, police, illumanati, indian, chinee, coons, ongoing legacy of slavery etc. We want reparations and we shall overcome someday. Welfare is our reparations but some black men prefer d white woman as their reparations, and some black woman prefer the white man.

Throw in civil rights leaders and SJW's pimping off the problems of the black community. Add all of this together and you see why things are so facked up.

On point.

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Re: Race and Crime

Postby kstt » April 25th, 2018, 7:27 pm

Could this obsession with race be the cause our PM's go abroad for medical treatment because they afraid an indian doctor kill them?

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Re: Race and Crime

Postby AstonMartV » April 25th, 2018, 7:45 pm

zoom rader wrote:There is only one race in Trinidad and its called the PNM.


Dawg you never fail yes lmao

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Re: Race and Crime

Postby The_Honourable » April 25th, 2018, 9:02 pm

kstt wrote:Could this obsession with race be the cause our PM's go abroad for medical treatment because they afraid an indian doctor kill them?


Nah... one or more of the three reasons:

1. They know the public service for the most part sucks so it is a gamble.

2. Private service you have better quality but some specialist services are unavailable or too expensive so they have to be done away . Most politicians use local private services.

3. Privacy... which i believe is the main reason. Don't want to risk some member of staff locally from either private or especially the public system leaking your health information to the media or on social media. It's also very hard for our local media personnel seeking private medical information abroad. Good example is the status of Maxie Cuffie.

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Re: Race and Crime

Postby De Dragon » April 25th, 2018, 10:43 pm

kstt wrote:My parents never pound race in my head they never blamed the government. They did what they had to do. They pounded education and hard work in my head and not to expect anything from anyone. Work for what you want. With their support of course, both parents. They had both parents as well. BOTH PARENTS and the cycle continues, God willing!

It may shock you to learn that not every successful, or well adjusted person, is the product of a house where both parents were present :roll:

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Re: Race and Crime

Postby ProtonPowder » April 25th, 2018, 11:29 pm

The_Honourable wrote:
kstt wrote:Could this obsession with race be the cause our PM's go abroad for medical treatment because they afraid an indian doctor kill them?


Nah... one or more of the three reasons:

1. They know the public service for the most part sucks so it is a gamble.

2. Private service you have better quality but some specialist services are unavailable or too expensive so they have to be done away . Most politicians use local private services.

3. Privacy... which i believe is the main reason. Don't want to risk some member of staff locally from either private or especially the public system leaking your health information to the media or on social media. It's also very hard for our local media personnel seeking private medical information abroad. Good example is the status of Maxie Cuffie.


The personnel they see abroad definitely know they are foreign government officials, and even if its a third world shithole it would look incredibly bad for HIPPA violations to take place. They would definitely lose their licenses to practice, unlike in trinidad where somebody can sneak by the doctors notes or charts and nobody would be none the wiser as to the source.

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Re: Race and Crime

Postby kstt » April 26th, 2018, 9:33 am

De Dragon wrote:
kstt wrote:My parents never pound race in my head they never blamed the government. They did what they had to do. They pounded education and hard work in my head and not to expect anything from anyone. Work for what you want. With their support of course, both parents. They had both parents as well. BOTH PARENTS and the cycle continues, God willing!

It may shock you to learn that not every successful, or well adjusted person, is the product of a house where both parents were present :roll:


Sorry you or whoever you toting for didn't "choose wisely" bai. Doh beat up.

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Re: Race and Crime

Postby ruffneck_12 » April 26th, 2018, 9:57 am

It's just the culture of the area.

Throw some beethamites in central/south with vast expanses of land and they will learn to farm and fix car.

Throw some caroni injuns in the overpopulated hills of POS and they will resort to crime.



(this isn't an excuse though, if you are aware of your situation, try to improve it)

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Re: Race and Crime

Postby Ben_spanna » April 26th, 2018, 10:17 am

take a Really good unbiased look at every single Country around the world that WAs/is governed by people of African background , do you see similarities in ALL of them? how many are actually successful and how many crash and are now the worst places to live with the highest crime rates and lowest quality of life?
Everywhere the criminal statistics are based on the ethnic composition of the respected country............in the far East in sure its Asians that make up the majority of the criminals, in India its probably the Indians and so forth, its no different here.... facts are we have a majority of our population that are African, its not a racial issue...its just facts.....

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Re: Race and Crime

Postby shake d livin wake d dead » April 26th, 2018, 10:56 am

ruffneck_12 wrote:It's just the culture of the area.

Throw some beethamites in central/south with vast expanses of land and they will learn to farm and fix car.

Throw some caroni injuns in the overpopulated hills of POS and they will resort to crime.



(this isn't an excuse though, if you are aware of your situation, try to improve it)


No...no...no...at farming...if is one thing the majority of Africans hate to do in Trinidad is plant garden(unless is a weed field)..

They does equate it to slavery....try to have cepep plant food and see what would happen nuh..

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