Petrotrin refinery shut down

Habit7 · Postby **Habit7** » March 22nd, 2024, 6:42 pm

It is funny your falsehood will go unchallenged but my cited rebuttal is PNM props bu t here goes:

Yes T&T has oil but only 40k barrels a day with a refinery that has a 180k barrel a day throughput. The need to import crude makes it unprofitable just like the other Caribbean refineries dependent on imported refined oil.

There was a shortage of USD since 2014
https://archives.newsday.co.tt/2014/06/ ... r-us-woes/

Petrotrin was a net loser of forex
Petrotrin Chairman Wilfred Espinet said. "This results in a net loss in foreign exchange." https://www.spglobal.com/marketintellig ... AAJf4P6XQ2

Our credit ratings by various raters shows no risk of us defaulting on any loan, in fact our debt to GDP is reducing.

“Tenants at the Park include, Caribbean Specialty Foods, IFarm TT, Trinidad Chocolate Factory, Woodsman Caribbean and Royal Dates Galore all at varying stages of establishment and operations. “https://www.investt.co.tt/news-and-events/moruga-agro-processing-li/

Toruba Stadium had 4 CPL finals at at least US$24M benefit to the economy, that is not counting the other events there. http://www.cnc3.co.tt/press-release/eco ... 36-million

WGTL was sold during the PP admin to a private entity already. Its success or failure is dependent on its stakeholders, not T&T.

The_Honourable · Postby **The_Honourable** » March 22nd, 2024, 8:17 pm

In time for 2025?

Buyer interested in Pointe-a-Pierre refinery

Prime Minister Dr Keith Rowley said at least one buyer has expressed interest in the Pointe-a-Pierre refinery and will be coming to see its data room in the next week or two.

Speaking at a media briefing at the VIP Lounge, Piarco Airport, shortly after his return from Guyana yesterday, Rowley said the Government has been keeping the issue of the refinery out front as “one of the things we do when we go to these big gatherings where a lot of people are, who are in the business.”

He said the refinery was taken out of operation because of an inadequate local oil supply and purchasing oil was “a big money loser”.

“We always hold it out in the hope that someone with access to oil or wants to get into the refining business, predicated on an oil supply they may have, that those discussions are always with us.

“And we did have some of it in Georgetown. There’s one party having heard us that has gone off to put things in place to come and look at the refinery’s data room at Pointe a Pierre,” he said.

Rowley said anyone interested would find all the information they need in the data room.

“So having heard us, we have at least one interested party who’s indicated an interest in going to the data room sometime in the next week or two,” he said.

He added that if they think there are opportunities to talk further, they will.

“We still think the refinery is valuable. It’s available for us but it requires a sustained supply of crude oil.”

https://www.guardian.co.tt/news/buyer-i ... 39e596ba22

wing · Postby **wing** » March 22nd, 2024, 9:05 pm

The only option is a supply from Guyana. At market prices, for any potential buyer to operate at good margins, the staffing will have to be very lean and cash flows tightly controlled. Doesn't look good for Roget if it ever materializes. Maybe that's why they hiding under Kamla skirt.

Habit7 · Postby **Habit7** » March 23rd, 2024, 9:12 am

wing wrote:The only option is a supply from Guyana. At market prices, for any potential buyer to operate at good margins, the staffing will have to be very lean and cash flows tightly controlled. Doesn't look good for Roget if it ever materializes. Maybe that's why they hiding under Kamla skirt.

Guyana don't want to hear about Trinidad's refinery. Guyana is selling their share of Exxon's oil on the open market to the highest bidder. To sell to TT would mean a loss of potential profits. They don't want to buy the refinery because they have no experience in running a refinery esp one that failed twice.

Refineries are closing all over the world and the existing ones are becoming more efficient. Rowley is trying to sell the country dreams about somebody buying the refinery soon. And any other politician promising to reopen the refinery is just as deceptive.

Postby **nervewrecker** » March 23rd, 2024, 9:42 am

Habit7 wrote:
wing wrote:The only option is a supply from Guyana. At market prices, for any potential buyer to operate at good margins, the staffing will have to be very lean and cash flows tightly controlled. Doesn't look good for Roget if it ever materializes. Maybe that's why they hiding under Kamla skirt.

Guyana don't want to hear about Trinidad's refinery. Guyana is selling their share of Exxon's oil on the open market to the highest bidder. To sell to TT would mean a loss of potential profits. They don't want to buy the refinery because they have no experience in running a refinery esp one that failed twice.

Refineries are closing all over the world and the existing ones are becoming more efficient. Rowley is trying to sell the country dreams about somebody buying the refinery soon. And any other politician promising to reopen the refinery is just as deceptive.

I thought Guyana building a refinery?

wing · Postby **wing** » March 23rd, 2024, 10:52 am

Habit7 wrote:
wing wrote:The only option is a supply from Guyana. At market prices, for any potential buyer to operate at good margins, the staffing will have to be very lean and cash flows tightly controlled. Doesn't look good for Roget if it ever materializes. Maybe that's why they hiding under Kamla skirt.

Guyana don't want to hear about Trinidad's refinery. Guyana is selling their share of Exxon's oil on the open market to the highest bidder. To sell to TT would mean a loss of potential profits. They don't want to buy the refinery because they have no experience in running a refinery esp one that failed twice.

Refineries are closing all over the world and the existing ones are becoming more efficient. Rowley is trying to sell the country dreams about somebody buying the refinery soon. And any other politician promising to reopen the refinery is just as deceptive.

It is true many refineries are closing, most due to the same issues that ours faced. However, there are still markets in the Caribbean and beyond that any prospective bidder would have considered before coming here. Point to note, the largest refinery in Africa was just commissioned last month in Nigeria. Many of the upgrades in the refinery such as the CCR, FCCU, ALKY ACID and UTILITIES are basically new plants not to mention the ULSD plant which may have hope of rehabilitation. It will take huge sums to get it going and run as a lean business. As long as the government stays out, there is a chance of success.

Habit7 · Postby **Habit7** » March 23rd, 2024, 11:07 am

nervewrecker wrote:I thought Guyana building a refinery?

yes they are looking to build a small refinery like 30K barrels/day, not as large as ours. Enough for local consumption of products and a little extra for export. But just like their gas to electricity plans, it is mixed up in confusion and yet to get off the ground.

wing wrote:It is true many refineries are closing, most due to the same issues that ours faced. However, there are still markets in the Caribbean and beyond that any prospective bidder would have considered before coming here. Point to note, the largest refinery in Africa was just commissioned last month in Nigeria. Many of the upgrades in the refinery such as the CCR, FCCU, ALKY ACID and UTILITIES are basically new plants not to mention the ULSD plant which may have hope of rehabilitation. It will take huge sums to get it going and run as a lean business. As long as the government stays out, there is a chance of success.

The benefit of Nigeria is that they have endless crude and don't need to import it, unlike the Caribbean refineries. They have the raw materials and the market in one country. The Caribbean has to import the raw materials and export the products to the market. More middlemen, less profit.

We have to understand we are biased toward PaP because it is ours and we have a nostalgic attachment to it. But as an unbiased international investor, PaP is a wildcard with better investment prospects elsewhere.

wing · Postby **wing** » March 23rd, 2024, 11:13 am

Habit7 wrote:
nervewrecker wrote:I thought Guyana building a refinery?

yes they are looking to build a small refinery like 30K barrels/day, not as large as ours. Enough for local consumption of products and a little extra for export. But just like their gas to electricity plans, it is mixed up in confusion and yet to get off the ground.

wing wrote:It is true many refineries are closing, most due to the same issues that ours faced. However, there are still markets in the Caribbean and beyond that any prospective bidder would have considered before coming here. Point to note, the largest refinery in Africa was just commissioned last month in Nigeria. Many of the upgrades in the refinery such as the CCR, FCCU, ALKY ACID and UTILITIES are basically new plants not to mention the ULSD plant which may have hope of rehabilitation. It will take huge sums to get it going and run as a lean business. As long as the government stays out, there is a chance of success.
The benefit of Nigeria is that they have endless crude and don't need to import it, unlike the Caribbean refineries. They have the raw materials and the market in one country. The Caribbean has to import the raw materials and export the products to the market. More middlemen, less profit.

We have to understand we are biased toward PaP because it is ours and we have a nostalgic attachment to it. But as an unbiased international investor, PaP is a wildcard with better investment prospects elsewhere.

Anyone who is visiting for a site visit obviously has an economic way to acquire crude as well as a market to sell products. Unless of course is to buy it for scrap.

pugboy · Postby **pugboy** » March 23rd, 2024, 11:21 am

what’s latest with dead divers report and millions spent for coe?

wha bout the oil spill barge?

Habit7 · Postby **Habit7** » March 23rd, 2024, 12:40 pm

pugboy wrote:what’s latest with dead divers report and millions spent for coe?

wha bout the oil spill barge?

Well there are threads for either one.

Postby **nervewrecker** » March 23rd, 2024, 8:32 pm

Habit7 wrote:
nervewrecker wrote:I thought Guyana building a refinery?

yes they are looking to build a small refinery like 30K barrels/day, not as large as ours. Enough for local consumption of products and a little extra for export. But just like their gas to electricity plans, it is mixed up in confusion and yet to get off the ground.

wing wrote:It is true many refineries are closing, most due to the same issues that ours faced. However, there are still markets in the Caribbean and beyond that any prospective bidder would have considered before coming here. Point to note, the largest refinery in Africa was just commissioned last month in Nigeria. Many of the upgrades in the refinery such as the CCR, FCCU, ALKY ACID and UTILITIES are basically new plants not to mention the ULSD plant which may have hope of rehabilitation. It will take huge sums to get it going and run as a lean business. As long as the government stays out, there is a chance of success.
The benefit of Nigeria is that they have endless crude and don't need to import it, unlike the Caribbean refineries. They have the raw materials and the market in one country. The Caribbean has to import the raw materials and export the products to the market. More middlemen, less profit.

We have to understand we are biased toward PaP because it is ours and we have a nostalgic attachment to it. But as an unbiased international investor, PaP is a wildcard with better investment prospects elsewhere.

Surinam building something too? The company with the grocery chain have men there but it slipped my mind to ask what they doing.

sMASH · Postby **sMASH** » March 23rd, 2024, 9:07 pm

Espinet got the refinery profitable in the lead up to the closure even with the staffing bloat

The problem was. The Malcom Jones wgtl loan bullet payment.

Even when thy had to buy crude to make up the production runs, it was still a wise venture to cause u bought crude at crude prices and sold the products at distilled prices.

That brought in much needed forex, and kept a lot of people employed, and who in turn sustained a lot of micro economics.

The problem with selling the refinery is they want to saddle the buyer with the Malcom Jones debt.
Every body want to buy the refinery, but not that debt.

Cause the refinery was a good business.

Habit7 · Postby **Habit7** » March 23rd, 2024, 10:28 pm

nervewrecker wrote:Surinam building something too? The company with the grocery chain have men there but it slipped my mind to ask what they doing.

Suriname already has a small refinery.

sMASH wrote:Espinet got the refinery profitable in the lead up to the closure even with the staffing bloat

The problem was. The Malcom Jones wgtl loan bullet payment.

Even when thy had to buy crude to make up the production runs, it was still a wise venture to cause u bought crude at crude prices and sold the products at distilled prices.

That brought in much needed forex, and kept a lot of people employed, and who in turn sustained a lot of micro economics.

The problem with selling the refinery is they want to saddle the buyer with the Malcom Jones debt.
Every body want to buy the refinery, but not that debt.

Cause the refinery was a good business.

It is amazing how you don’t let facts influence your beliefs. Your problem is not with me, it is with reality.

The_Honourable · Postby **The_Honourable** » March 23rd, 2024, 10:32 pm

I don't think the Malcom jones debt comes with the refinery if sold. Profits from Heritage is already servicing that debt and other outstanding petrotrin related debts.

Stand to be corrected tho.

Habit7 · Postby **Habit7** » March 23rd, 2024, 11:19 pm

The_Honourable wrote:I don't think the Malcom jones debt comes with the refinery if sold. Profits from Heritage is already servicing that debt and other outstanding petrotrin related debts.

Stand to be corrected tho.

Imbert said many people have asked the question: If the refinery was unprofitable over the years, why should anybody believe that a new entity can make it profitable.

“There is a simple answer to that. The refinery was saddled with huge debt, billions of dollars of debt. Any person taking over the refinery now will not have to carry that debt, which was a tremendous drain on the revenue being derived from the refinery. The refinery is going forward debt free.

https://trinidadexpress.com/news/local/ ... f.amp.html

The_Honourable · Postby **The_Honourable** » Yesterday, 3:52 pm

Chairman: $500,000 a month to preserve mothballed refinery

APPROXIMATELY $500,000 a month is being spent to preserve the former Petrotrin refinery at Pointe-a-Pierre.

Guaracara Refining Company (GRC) chairman Newman George gave this response to a question from Public Accounts Enterprise Committee (PAEC) vice-chairman Mayaro MP Rushton Paray, during a public inquiry held by the PAEC on April 17.

The meeting was held to examine the audited financial statements of Trinidad Petroleum Holdings Ltd (TPHL) for the year ended September 30, 2019

GRC is one of four subsidiary companies under TPHL and its main function is to manage the physical assets of Petrotrin, such as the refinery.

Petrotrin was restructured into TPHL on November 30, 2018. The refinery was closed on the same date.

Paray asked George if the cost of preserving the refinery was in US or TT dollars.

George replied, "I speak in TT (dollars)."

Paray observed that unlike two other TPHL subsidiaries, Heritage Petroleum and Paria Fuel Trading Company, GRC was not classified as a revenue-earning entity in the group. He asked where GRC was obtaining funds to preserve the refinery.

George said this revenue was coming from lease agreements that GRC has with Heritage and Paria for storage facilities.

Paray asked if the cost of preserving the refinery was an incentive for TPHL to find someone to operate it.

TPHL chairman Michael Quamina, SC, said, "There is no greater driving force in so far as in trying to get somebody to take it off our hands."

He added that outside the cost of preserving the refinery, "There are driving forces even more significant than that would want us to get somebody to take it over."

Quamina said the Houston-based branch of the Bank of Nova Scotia was serving as consultants to TPHL with respect to assessing potential bidders for the refinery.

"We went through a very formal process some time ago. I would think this is the most progress that we have made. We do have some prospects in hand."

Paray asked how many bidders TPHL was considering.

Paria general manager Mushtaq Mohammed said, "Currently we have had eight expressions of interest (EOIs) for the purchase, lease or restart of the refinery."

Mohammed added all eight EOIs were unsolicited proposals.

He said TPHL expects the eight entities to submit formal offers by May 10, and those offers will then be reviewed and a decision made in due course.

Paray asked, "In terms of those bidders, can you share how many may be local or a combination of foreign and local?"

Mohammed replied, "I would say at this time, all of them have a composition of local and foreign participation."

No details were provided of the identities of any of the entities interested in the refinery.

At the launch of an apprenticeship programme by the Youth Development and National Service Ministry in Santa Flora last month, the Prime Minister said two parties were currently interested in the refinery, but it was not yet a sealed deal.

“One looks very promising, one looks very interested. But until the horse begins to drink the water, you don’t know what’s happened at the river.”

https://newsday.co.tt/2024/04/17/chairm ... -refinery/