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Rose Capital limited

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Redman
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Re: Rose Capital limited

Postby Redman » August 15th, 2019, 6:36 am

Yeah it sometimes is..but it eh that simple.
More accurately not that clear cut

People trying to improve their lot.
Trust the wrong people/referral/endorsement...and there is a shortage of regulatory help as well.

That's what conmen exploit, information gaps,greed ,trust, and a real sexy story

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Re: Rose Capital limited

Postby shimon » August 16th, 2019, 8:56 am

Redman wrote:Yeah it sometimes is..but it eh that simple.
More accurately not that clear cut

People trying to improve their lot.
Trust the wrong people/referral/endorsement...and there is a shortage of regulatory help as well.

That's what conmen exploit, information gaps,greed ,trust, and a real sexy story


Exactly and the thing is for some time his company was paying out to customers so the credibility was not really in question my friend is still waiting for his crypto currency.

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DTAC
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Re: Rose Capital limited

Postby DTAC » August 16th, 2019, 10:21 am

Anyone who claims a guaranteed return is obviously a con artist. If that was true he'd be richer than Jeff Bezos because no matter how much he put out, he'd end up with more.

The only way guaranteed return" that can work is in a pyramid scheme as long as you keep adding suckers to the bottom of the pyramid.

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Re: Rose Capital limited

Postby Ragnor » August 16th, 2019, 12:59 pm

Hi I saw someone shared details of my report here. I cannot share the full report as it has sensitive info but here is some of my findings.

Image

the company would have to correct over 97% of the time to realize 100%+ gains over a 6 week period. While it is possible for them to do accomplish this, they may have access to leverages up 10:1 via their brokerage services. This would allow them to engage in trading and leveraging their account everyday. HOWEVER THEY WOULD HAVE TO BE CORRECT EVERYDAY WITH EVERY TRADE. Plus transaction costs were ignored so interest on leveraging and brokerage fees would push the required ratio higher.

Image

Accounts that have access to leverage ratios of less than (<) 10:1 have a higher possibility of realizing positive returns consistently. Anything above that leverage requirement reduces the probability of positive returns. So our scenario used 10:1 as a the max base and found that it would be impossible for them achieve it even with some losses included into our scenario ( the min was 5:1).

In short when I analyzed the data that was given and applied it to every currency pair thinkable, I couldn't replicate their posted returns. I had hoped that it could have been an recording error on their part but it seems that the issue has grown as more and more ppl lodge complaints against the company.

I hope the company will reimburse people their money, my info is that they are and hopefully people will be more responsible.

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Re: Rose Capital limited

Postby valeria » August 16th, 2019, 9:16 pm

There are brokers who offer 100:1 as high as 1000:1 leverage. If I have a $500 acct, I can use $250 for trading with a $2.5/pip to $25/pip.
If i have a US$1000 acct, 100:1 leverage & enter a trade using $250 this means every pip is worth $2.50.

If i have a US$1000 acct, 1000:1 leverage & enter a trade using $250 this means every pip is worth $25.00.

If i have a US$1000 acct, 500:1 leverage & enter a trade using $250 this means every pip is worth $12.50.
If i lose 10 pips then $12.5x10= $125 LOSS. If i gain 10 pips then $12.5x10= $125 Profit.(exclusive of spread & broker fees)

Some brokers offer LOT size of $500/pip, $5000/pip as high as $10,000/pip & more according to acct size.

If i have the acct size with 500:1 leverage, trading $10,000/pip & lucky to get 50 pips on 5 pairs.
Well......$10,000 x 50pips x 5 = $2, 500, 000. 2.5 million profit.(exclusive of spread & broker fees)

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Re: Rose Capital limited

Postby Ragnor » August 16th, 2019, 10:44 pm

valeria wrote:stuff


Not sure if this post was meant to refute mine but

1) Curious which trading platforms allows this especially to an individual account ( I know of a few but I assuming it is IML combined with an unregulated broker, which is another con story).

2)Secondly, trading platforms operating in the U.S, Canada, GB, Australia (soon to be), European Union, require that all regulated brokers offer leverage ratios not beyond 1:50 and in some other territories 1:30. Which means that the company is using an unregulated broker to conduct transactions. These are regulated by the Futures Exchange Commission, ESMA and Forex Capital Markets. By using an unregulated broker the company and accepting public money the company is placing those deposits at great risks.

3) There are liquidity requirements, capital reserve requirements and existence of margin calls in case of capital losses plus engaging in high leverages ignores all fiduciary requirements and safety margin rules especially when handling other ppl money.

4) While I am aware of how leveraging works, that scenario could easily apply to a NEGATIVE POSITION PLUS Transaction costs. And if the company were to achieve 100% within the 6 week period analyzed, the probability of achieving this is not 50% - 50% BUT a lot less when you examine basis point movements over those periods. And while still possible as I said earlier to achieve a 100% plus return, the likelihood of that is VERY LOW.

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Re: Rose Capital limited

Postby roseinhand » August 18th, 2019, 8:06 am

Good day, everyone.

I've followed this thread for quite some time, though not being the registered user of Triniturner (located thousands of miles from Trinidad and Tobago). It is very sad that people have fallen to the charm and wit of James Kerron Rose, as did I and other people associated with me. Our loses have nothing to do with the investment part of his business, however, we have suffered from the same fraudulent enterprise named Rose Capital Ltd., its employees (James Kerron Rose, Jerome Sturgeon (nephew of the latest), Jason (don't remember his surname) and others.

I don't want to go in details now as to our involvement with the said people, though can say that it was about consulting on foreign legal matters.
The key facts I would like to share now are:

1) Rose Capital Ltd. was never regulated as an investment business by any regulator on the planet Earth, nor were its Swiss or Estonian subsidiaries (Rose Capital GmbH, incorporated in canton of Zug) (Rose Capital OÜ, incorporated in Talinn, Estonia). And no regulatory permits would be ever issued, as persons with such low level of financial literacy, lacking any formal education could not be considered by regulators to be fit and proper, which James Rose knows well.

2) James Kerron Rose and his co-conspirators established network of offshore bank accounts (USA, Switzerland, Belize, Czech Republic) to conceal the nature of their unlawful enterprise, launder proceeds of their investment scam

3) What they offered in terms of returns and legal protection for investors is a pure scam by any means. The investment agreement they've used is not a legitimate investment agreement for a very risky financial product.

4) No evidence was ever produced as to his personal wealth or any other source of income that can provide basis for issuance of any related regulatory permission.

5) Mr. Rose tips off private investigators in TT so that they would provide false information as to his whereabouts and surrender service of any legal process documents

Currently, we are gathering information that would help to bring the said persons to the justice. We already have important pieces, such as names of financial institutions, copies of the identification documentation and other information that would be useful for any further criminal proceedings in Trinidad and Tobago and elsewhere.

Aiming this message to any potential victims of the financial crimes committed by the criminal enterprise Rose Capital Ltd. - we need your help and assistance to fully understand the extent of this investment scam by gathering the following information:
- any contracts that were signed with any of legal entities associated with Rose Capital
- details of any financial transactions (cryptocurrency addresses, wire transfer details, cash receipts)
- any communications with the said persons (e-mail, Telegram, WhatsApp, etc.) you have
- any further details that may be helpful with the investigation

Please PM me with your e-mail, Skype or Telegram.

We would provide written confidentiality protection arrangements to secure your privacy. We do not and won't guarantee any return of deposits, however we would do our best to deliver a complete report that could be used as an evidence in criminal case. The sole offense of money laundering is punishable on indictment by up to 25 million TTD in fines and 15 years of imprisoment.

For those who still believe that Rose Capital is a legitimate organization - read all the above again. How can you trust the person who has taken your money based on 3-page "investment agreement"?

For those who've got reimbursed in part or in full in respect of initial deposits - if you do think that Rose Capital has exonerated itself by that act, you are wrong. They have used your money as a free credit line to become richer themselves.

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Re: Rose Capital limited

Postby Oku » August 18th, 2019, 1:22 pm

Pls send your email or telegram id , so that we can join u from nigeria

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Re: Rose Capital limited

Postby The_Honourable » August 18th, 2019, 1:37 pm

Roseinhand, I really hope you and others get justice. T&T legal system very slow to a dead stop so i hope your team have the patience and endurance to carry this case all the way thru. Be careful he sends his people to monitor your telegram, whatsapp, etc.

Seems here is a safe space to discuss this topic as I see new persons joining tuner and commenting. For a man who have a corner shop in Golconda, i'm really interested on how far James went and scammed people.

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Re: Rose Capital limited

Postby Ragnor » August 18th, 2019, 2:44 pm

The_Honourable wrote:Roseinhand, I really hope you and others get justice. T&T legal system very slow to a dead stop so i hope your team have the patience and endurance to carry this case all the way thru. Be careful he sends his people to monitor your telegram, whatsapp, etc.

Seems here is a safe space to discuss this topic as I see new persons joining tuner and commenting. For a man who have a corner shop in Golconda, i'm really interested on how far James went and scammed people.


Not sure how accurate the info is, (so take it with a grain of salt) but a majority of the "investors" seemed to be church going ppl. It seemed that how the whole scheme grew was through tight knitted church communities, especially those practicing "seed faith" and/or tithe.

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Re: Rose Capital limited

Postby daxt0r » August 18th, 2019, 4:26 pm

oh gawd oh allyuh killin meh!!! international chupidees join jus to bawl here. I really had no idea so much foolish people existed still. Oh god if allyuh money scratchin allyuh jus send it to ah nigerian prince or somethin na rather than all d run around believin in fairies.

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Re: Rose Capital limited

Postby roseinhand » August 18th, 2019, 5:51 pm

daxt0r wrote:oh gawd oh allyuh killin meh!!! international chupidees join jus to bawl here. I really had no idea so much foolish people existed still. Oh god if allyuh money scratchin allyuh jus send it to ah nigerian prince or somethin na rather than all d run around believin in fairies.


Well, you may be somewhat right, though we have nothing to do with investments in the said company. We provided some services to the company, and it now has emerged that Rose Capital is a scam ops. When you only "know" person by the means of internet connection, you'd automatically have a difficulty identifying what is going on in reality, especially it is true in case if you deal with newly established entity in a remote location by meter from where we are (in Central Europe).

We got more questions than answers from our story (which involves an extremely problematic corporate affair) and the judgment of other people involved in making risk-mitigating decisions has prejudiced the outcome, which you see today.

All in all, we have only thin idea as of now how Rose Capital associates divested their unlawful gains from local investors, which is the crucial part to understand how the losses could be made recoverable.

I would therefore renew our appeal to victims of Rose Capital scam (I believe that on the basis of evidence available today, the designation used is fully correct) to submit any available evidence:
    - copies of contracts entered into with Rose Capital, its subsidiaries and associates (Rose Capital GmbH, Rose Capital OÜ, MGD Investments Ltd.)
    - payment slips, statements, screenshots or Blockchain transaction IDs that confirm payments made to any of the above mentioned companies, alongside with invoices, confirmation of deposit etc.
    - any reports made to investors regarding their investment portfolio
    - communication logs (e-mails, WhatsApp and Telegram messages) with any persons linked to the company, including contact details
    - archived social media posts, messages within Instagram and Facebook messengers
    - if you've started any legal proceedings - copies of relevant documents (police reports, court filings etc.)
    - identifying details on persons that are associated with Rose Capital

This information would help to establish material facts that can bring the whole network to answer tough questions regarding source of their wealth in multiple jurisdictions.


I've established a secure e-mail address to contact us regarding Rose Capital - roseinquest at protonmail.com That would be single entry contact point for all communications connected to Rose Capital.

To moderators of the forum - I've read rules of TriniTuner forum and aware that this topic and content of our postings may interfere with some of the established rules. However, this forum is the only chance to gather important information from people whose funds are being divested and disguised through at least five jurisdictions. Collection of information through other means is not possible at the current moment, as the subjects have closed all their social media accounts.

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Re: Rose Capital limited

Postby Redman » August 18th, 2019, 6:33 pm

I would suggest...if you truly are what you say you are...that you establish a relationship with a local law firm that is willing to act on the matter.

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Re: Rose Capital limited

Postby roseinhand » August 18th, 2019, 7:06 pm

Redman wrote:I would suggest...if you truly are what you say you are...that you establish a relationship with a local law firm that is willing to act on the matter.


We would have done so if our relationships were governed under TT laws. However, they now fall within EU country jurisdiction, which makes enforcement and any court proceedings unfeasible given that we have no means to serve legal process notices at the current moment.

The only foreseeable way is to collect relevant information and pursue legal proceedings (both civil and criminal) in Trinidad based on current state of things. We have elements of a complicated patterns, but without information from the victims we wouldn't be able to have a complete scene and find ways and means to recover funds.

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Re: Rose Capital limited

Postby Redman » August 18th, 2019, 9:36 pm

If you intend to pursue inTnT then you would need local counsel anyway.

Locals would be covered by agreements made with a local entity...if I were in their shoes I would be reluctant to deal with some unknown entity like yourself..and further hand over the info....especially since as you say you are in another jurisdiction.

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Re: Rose Capital limited

Postby Cut_throat3000 » August 18th, 2019, 10:27 pm

roseinhand wrote:
daxt0r wrote:oh gawd oh allyuh killin meh!!! international chupidees join jus to bawl here. I really had no idea so much foolish people existed still. Oh god if allyuh money scratchin allyuh jus send it to ah nigerian prince or somethin na rather than all d run around believin in fairies.


Well, you may be somewhat right, though we have nothing to do with investments in the said company. We provided some services to the company, and it now has emerged that Rose Capital is a scam ops. When you only "know" person by the means of internet connection, you'd automatically have a difficulty identifying what is going on in reality, especially it is true in case if you deal with newly established entity in a remote location by meter from where we are (in Central Europe).

We got more questions than answers from our story (which involves an extremely problematic corporate affair) and the judgment of other people involved in making risk-mitigating decisions has prejudiced the outcome, which you see today.

All in all, we have only thin idea as of now how Rose Capital associates divested their unlawful gains from local investors, which is the crucial part to understand how the losses could be made recoverable.

I would therefore renew our appeal to victims of Rose Capital scam (I believe that on the basis of evidence available today, the designation used is fully correct) to submit any available evidence:
    - copies of contracts entered into with Rose Capital, its subsidiaries and associates (Rose Capital GmbH, Rose Capital OÜ, MGD Investments Ltd.)
    - payment slips, statements, screenshots or Blockchain transaction IDs that confirm payments made to any of the above mentioned companies, alongside with invoices, confirmation of deposit etc.
    - any reports made to investors regarding their investment portfolio
    - communication logs (e-mails, WhatsApp and Telegram messages) with any persons linked to the company, including contact details
    - archived social media posts, messages within Instagram and Facebook messengers
    - if you've started any legal proceedings - copies of relevant documents (police reports, court filings etc.)
    - identifying details on persons that are associated with Rose Capital

This information would help to establish material facts that can bring the whole network to answer tough questions regarding source of their wealth in multiple jurisdictions.


I've established a secure e-mail address to contact us regarding Rose Capital - roseinquest at protonmail.com That would be single entry contact point for all communications connected to Rose Capital.

To moderators of the forum - I've read rules of TriniTuner forum and aware that this topic and content of our postings may interfere with some of the established rules. However, this forum is the only chance to gather important information from people whose funds are being divested and disguised through at least five jurisdictions. Collection of information through other means is not possible at the current moment, as the subjects have closed all their social media accounts.


Oh jeez come on...if I were a skeptical person which one should be after being scammed, I would think that this is an agent acting on behalf of rose capital’s interest, collecting information on a potential case or collecting the names of those who might be planning to take legal actions against rose and associates...if your claims are true and rose capital’s illegal activities span across continents then the matter at hand should be handled by the institutions such as Interpol who have the jurisdiction to deal with such matters not by some anonymous entity requesting information in a public forum...plain talk bad manners not much will come of this situation more than likely everyone will just accept their losses and move on with time... most of the people who invested aren’t of questionable character anyway...unless rose and associates: Jerome, Tischad, Andre and their conglomerate crossed the wrong people and those people decide to take matters into their own hands... nothing will come of this....you people allowed yourself to be scammed and rose and his family made off with your money...to be honest I kinda admire the guy cause he pull off such an elaborate scheme...Stop wasting your time accept that you were dumb enough to be robbed accept your losses and move on

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Re: Rose Capital limited

Postby 16 cycles » August 19th, 2019, 8:47 am

Cut_throat3000 wrote: ..Stop wasting your time accept that you were dumb enough to be robbed accept your losses and move on...


Rose would love if this happens...

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Re: Rose Capital limited

Postby The_Honourable » August 19th, 2019, 9:39 am

roseinhand, Redman is correct. As cut _throat said, you could be on Rose team collecting info or just a stranger to the matter collecting info to see if you can get the spoils for yourself, especially since crypto is involved.

Pursue professional T&T counsel if you want persons to trust you and give up their information to help with the case. When the client goes to the attorney, the attorney should fully explain the case including your identity. According to the information, then you can decide if to pursue civil and criminal proceedings here in T&T. Most of the money pass through the banking system so you'll need a court order to confirm the monies originated from T&T.

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Re: Rose Capital limited

Postby Skanky » August 19th, 2019, 9:43 am

Well yes,a scam on a scam. I've seen it all now.

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Re: Rose Capital limited

Postby Ragnor » August 19th, 2019, 10:33 am

If you've been defrauded locally, the best option is to go to the fraud squad with your agreement, conversations and any evidence of fraud.

If you are outside the country, hire a local lawyer to retrieve info on your behalf and file a claim with the local fraud squad.

If you are looking to put together information, talk to the a lawyer who can relay it to the fraud squad, most lawyers have connections within that specific unit so all the info collected will be amalgamated and will be used to prosecute or assist in other legal avenues.

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Re: Rose Capital limited

Postby Halfbreed07 » August 22nd, 2019, 12:15 pm

Was sent this by an investor just now.
IMG_20190822_121442_505.jpeg

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Re: Rose Capital limited

Postby daxt0r » August 22nd, 2019, 2:31 pm

hahaha go rosey boy! take some more of these fools money it scratchin dem bad bad an dey eh wa giv me so take all and jus feed them some mumbo jumbo

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Re: Rose Capital limited

Postby DTAC » August 22nd, 2019, 3:50 pm

Halfbreed07 wrote:Was sent this by an investor just now. IMG_20190822_121442_505.jpeg

Well that's it there. The money well and truly gone.

That's how you wind up a scam. Main man jumps out (with the cash), (now it's the company that's responsible for paying back "investors"), then close down the company as well, (oops. no company left to pay back investors).

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Re: Rose Capital limited

Postby Ragnor » August 22nd, 2019, 4:17 pm

Halfbreed07 wrote:Was sent this by an investor just now. IMG_20190822_121442_505.jpeg



Lol, they refunding ppl money, ok that's fine but you refunding the initial amount or is there interest attached? A dollar today is not worth a dollar a year from now.

Secondly, they learned from their previous mistakes and setting up a new company with the same directors. BS, the directors are equally complicit in this.

And they aren't registered investment advisors, brokers or ANYTHING. WHY ARE YOU TAKING PPL MONEY?

I know RC visit this forum so I hope they answer.

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Re: Rose Capital limited

Postby 16 cycles » August 22nd, 2019, 7:26 pm

Doubt they will refund...expect some set back or Bre'r Anansi story...

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Re: Rose Capital limited

Postby DTAC » August 23rd, 2019, 10:33 am

Halfbreed07 wrote:Was sent this by an investor just now. IMG_20190822_121442_505.jpeg

Ragnor wrote:Lol, they refunding ppl money, ok that's fine but you refunding the initial amount or is there interest attached? A dollar today is not worth a dollar a year from now.

What they saying has to be legit because not just anybody can send emails.
Secondly, they learned from their previous mistakes and setting up a new company with the same directors. BS, the directors are equally complicit in this.

It's a scam. A second company doesn't carry the liabilities of the first company. The second company is essentially a shield protecting the first company, playing the role of an out-of-pocket "investor", trying to get money to pass on to the "investors". If they get the same runaround the "investors" are getting, it's not their fault, (even though it's set up by the same people.).
And they aren't registered investment advisors, brokers or ANYTHING. WHY ARE YOU TAKING PPL MONEY?

That's the point of the scam.
I know RC visit this forum so I hope they answer.

Lol, he probably lying in on a beach lounger or a bed with Egyptian cotton sheets laughing at people still holding out hope of seeing any money.

It may even have started out as a legitimate investment company, but all of a sudden you sitting on millions in cash and instead of shopping for a foreign used Corolla, now you can afford that Range Rover you've only been able to dream about before.

At best it's that. But 90% certain this was an out-and-out Ponzi scheme from the outset

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Re: Rose Capital limited

Postby 16 cycles » August 23rd, 2019, 10:48 am

100% Ponzi unless they can prove they were actually trading in Forex....

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Re: Rose Capital limited

Postby JFadda » August 24th, 2019, 7:25 pm

Just forwarding this message here seems on topic.

A whole lot of nothing happening with our payouts this past 3 weeks, let’s make a move to grab James Rose, Andre Miguel and his team’s attention. They have the bitcoin to payout they just refuse to pay us and rather string us along Indefinitely. How long have they worked on these imaginary systems that are taking forever to work? They admitted before payouts that our 200 percent was put aside prior to the crashing of the fund which they can’t retract. So they have no excuse to not pay us atleast that!

The fact is... Our money was spent on over 200 tiida cars, Realestate in Trinidad and Tobago, as well as many Caribbean islands, illegal drugs, and a Venezuelan prostitution ring, this is what we know about, imagine what else James did!

During the week Mon-Fri there will be many talk shows airing within Trinidad and Tobago that can assist us locally and internationally to retrieve our stolen funds, by acting now you may secure what’s left of the funds.

I will list most of them off with all the contact information shortly. It won’t cost you a penny to send the tv hosts a message. Best of all, this can be done discreetly. Do the right thing and take back what’s rightfully yours! bring justice for yourself and many other investors that were defrauded. It’s quite clear James and his team has no intent to give us anything close to what we saw in our accounts. Let’s make our move! They have had their chance!

Starting today we could email the listed news channels informing them of this crime before they go live on Monday. On Monday the 26th of August we will all call the live shows using the phone numbers provided to voice our complaints, those that can’t call can comment on the live stream and email. Let’s move on this!

Fazeer Mohammed of Morning Edition airing on ccntv6 6:00am - 8:00am AST during the week.
And
Roger Alexander of Beyond the Tape airing on ccntv6 6:00pm - 7:00pm AST during the week.

They can both be contacted here
Facebook: facebook.com/CCNTV6/
Phone: (868) 623-1711
Email: news@tv6tnt.com
Twitter: @tv6tnt
Live Vimeo: tv6tnt.com/watch_live/

Ian Allen of CrimeWatch on synergy tv
6:00pm - 7:00pm AST on Weekdays
Facebook: facebook.com/tntcrimewatch
Phone: (868) 294-4081, (868) 290-4426, (868) 390-4426 or (868) 330-4426
Email: 1ian.alleyne@gmail.com
Live YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxmlSB ... -dD52lid6g


Saieed Ali of RealTalk on synergy tv
7:00pm - 8:00pm AST on Weekdays
Facebook: facebook.com/TTREALTALK/
Phone: (868) 237-3135
Email: STVREALTALK@GMAIL.COM
Live YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtZMse ... U9CVtO0Irw
Twitter:@ttrealtalk

All of these programs are aired live, allowing international investors to also voice their opinions. So to recap.

Today it is highly suggested (if you want your funds back) to contact.

news@tv6tnt.com
1ian.alleyne@gmail.com
STVREALTALK@GMAIL.COM

If you use Twitter message
@tv6tnt
@ttrealtalk

If you have a Facebook account send them a message
https://m.facebook.com/CCNTV6/
https://m.facebook.com/tntcrimewatch
https://m.facebook.com/TTREALTALK/

And lastly, don’t forget to tune in live over the web, where you can interact with the tv host and thousands of other spectators.
http://tv6tnt.com/watch_live/

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxmlSB ... -dD52lid6g

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtZMse ... U9CVtO0Irw

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Re: Rose Capital limited

Postby rspann » August 24th, 2019, 7:55 pm

Redman wrote:Yeah it sometimes is..but it eh that simple.
More accurately not that clear cut

People trying to improve their lot.
Trust the wrong people/referral/endorsement...and there is a shortage of regulatory help as well.

That's what conmen exploit, information gaps,greed ,trust, and a real sexy story



People trying to improve their lot should try conventional means that they have proper information about. Things that are secure but in trying to earn more than those safe methods is what put them in this predicament. Meanwhile ,Rose used conventional methods to improve his lot by putting cars on the road and investing in real estate (and Venezuelan prostitution rings ?).

rspann
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Re: Rose Capital limited

Postby rspann » August 24th, 2019, 7:58 pm

Fadda, when men handle that amount of money, they not coming back down to the ground unless brought down by force. Expect him to dissappear ,he wont return that money even if he has it.

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