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d spike
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Re: Local history Thread

Postby d spike » September 5th, 2011, 11:41 pm

Speaking of insulting terms regarding Amerindians, the word "Arawak" was never used by the folk who it referred to...
The word "Arawak' is a term used by their enemies, and it means "meal-eater" ( "meal" as in "grain", "corn" or "starch".)
This actually was an insult - one that could be easily understood in our 70's culture of looking down on someone who farms.

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Re: Local history Thread

Postby cinco » September 6th, 2011, 7:01 am

d spike can you share a list of books you read?
at least give me a book to start reading please

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Re: Local history Thread

Postby MG Man » September 6th, 2011, 8:55 am

dude...........I should let you know, d spike is 347 years old and was reading since he was 3 months old

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Re: Local history Thread

Postby cinco » September 6th, 2011, 8:56 am

good then i shall kill him and eat his brains

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Re: Local history Thread

Postby MG Man » September 6th, 2011, 9:05 am

I should warn you, once you do, you will be forced to live in the oilbird caves, and adopt a corbeau named Bartholomew Haskins III Esq

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Re: Local history Thread

Postby cinco » September 6th, 2011, 9:25 am

MG Man wrote:I should warn you, once you do, you will be forced to live in the oilbird caves, and adopt a corbeau named Bartholomew Haskins III Esq

so THATS your real name!!!

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Re: Local history Thread

Postby Seeker » September 6th, 2011, 9:58 am

d spike wrote:
triniboy wrote:Does anyone else know about this?

about 10-15 years ago, i read an article in the Trinidad Express where some hikers were hiking through the unfamiliar parts of the Northern range and they stumbled upon some metal debris which turned out to be reminants of a plane crash probably from a plane during ww2.

i never heard about this story ever again and was hoping someone else knows about this.

Seeker wrote:I wonder if the wreckage belonged to Mikey Ciprani's plane "the humming bird" that went down in the northern range in 1940.

No Seeker, the crash triniboy is talking about was a torpedo bomber Avenger.
Triniboy, the guns from that crashed plane were collected and are displayed in the Aviation Museum in Chagauramas.
Six (I believe) Grumman TBF Avengers were stationed at the airfield at Galera in Toco, as part of the anti-submarine war in "Torpedo Alley", as the area off our North Coast was called. This area was the most notorious stretch of water where German U-boats were concerned in WWII - even though if you 'google' "Torpedo Alley", you will get an area off America... (sigh, the things folks prefer to remember)
The Toco airfield was supposedly the only airfield in the world with a sharp curve at the end - as your undercarriage lifted off the ground at take-off, you needed to pull sharply to one side to avoid the light-house!

Again guy..great info.

I taking notes. Hope you don't mind.

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Re: Local history Thread

Postby cinco » September 6th, 2011, 10:03 am

i was googling this
and saw
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackburn_Shark
Canadian Sharks

The RCAF purchased seven Blackburn Shark II (760 hp/570 kW Tiger VI) in 1936 for service with No 6 (TB) Squadron, later operating as No 6 (BR) Sqn on shipping patrols off the Canadian west coast. Two Blackburn Shark IIIs (800 hp/600 kW Pegasus III) were supplied to RCAF by Blackburn in 1939 as forerunners of 17 similar aircraft built by Boeing Aircraft of Canada at Vancouver, with 840 hp (630 kW) Pegasus IX and used by Nos 6 and 4 (BR) Squadrons. RCAF Blackburn Sharks, some of which operated as floatplanes, were withdrawn from service in August 1944 and five were then transferred to the RN Air Observers' School in Trinidad.

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Re: Local history Thread

Postby MG Man » September 6th, 2011, 10:10 am

cinco wrote:
MG Man wrote:I should warn you, once you do, you will be forced to live in the oilbird caves, and adopt a corbeau named Bartholomew Haskins III Esq

so THATS your real name!!!


make sure yuh learn tuh spell it correk eh

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Re: Local history Thread

Postby Seeker » September 6th, 2011, 10:28 am

MG Man wrote:dude...........I should let you know, d spike is 347 years old and was reading since he was 3 months old

:lol: :lol:

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Re: Local history Thread

Postby d spike » September 6th, 2011, 12:32 pm

Seeker wrote:I also read somewhere that Waller Field was an airfied...the same runway was used as the dragstrip. The Feed mill at Carlsen Field was the site of another WWII airfield and German POWS was sometimes moved here to transfer to America. The Golden Grove Prison was an Army barracks and jungle training was done here to prepare the allies for battle against the japanese in the south pacific (Fort Read I think, was the name).

cinco wrote:i was googling this
and saw
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackburn_Shark
Canadian Sharks

The RCAF purchased seven Blackburn Shark II (760 hp/570 kW Tiger VI) in 1936 for service with No 6 (TB) Squadron, later operating as No 6 (BR) Sqn on shipping patrols off the Canadian west coast. Two Blackburn Shark IIIs (800 hp/600 kW Pegasus III) were supplied to RCAF by Blackburn in 1939 as forerunners of 17 similar aircraft built by Boeing Aircraft of Canada at Vancouver, with 840 hp (630 kW) Pegasus IX and used by Nos 6 and 4 (BR) Squadrons. RCAF Blackburn Sharks, some of which operated as floatplanes, were withdrawn from service in August 1944 and five were then transferred to the RN Air Observers' School in Trinidad.

The airfield at Carlsen Field is supposed to be still the largest airfield in the world. If I recall properly, it was also the only airfield that had three separate air corps operating on it at the same time. The officers that were chosen to orchestrate the Berlin Air-lift were taken from staff that operated at Carlsen Field and Wallerfield, due to them being the only officers with experience of massive air traffic.

Wallerfield was named after the American captain of a stricken aircraft that was tracking a German submarine. It was hit and going down, but the captain chose to stay behind and hold the plane steady while the crewmen jumped clear of the plane safely. There wasn't time for him to jump before it crashed.

A lil' scrap o' info:
The Brits used an area in North Manzanilla to train commandos (with live ammunition - the casualty rate was unfortunately rather high) and the survivors were called "the Marauders". Live shells are supposedly still being found there.

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Re: Local history Thread

Postby MG Man » September 6th, 2011, 12:39 pm

didn't realize the carlsen field airfield was larger than the wallerfield complex!

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Re: Local history Thread

Postby cinco » September 6th, 2011, 12:40 pm

books sir
where have your read these things?

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Re: Local history Thread

Postby d spike » September 6th, 2011, 12:43 pm

cinco wrote:good then i shall kill him and eat his brains

Eh eh eh eh... Look have respect eh... or I'll dash you in the head with my hearing-trumpet, and sic my corbeau on you... :lol:

cinco wrote:d spike can you share a list of books you read?
at least give me a book to start reading please

"A History of Aviation in Trinidad" by Gaylord Kelshall (sumting so, me t'inks);
"Spanish Trinidad" (good luck finding a copy o' that one);
(can't remember the name of this one but...) its the Journal of a French priest who worked here in the late 1800's.
These should keep you busy for now.
Good luck!

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Re: Local history Thread

Postby cinco » September 6th, 2011, 12:44 pm

thank you sir
Image

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Re: Local history Thread

Postby MG Man » September 6th, 2011, 12:46 pm

cinco wrote:books sir
where have your read these things?


u eh go learn eh
if u look at all those WW2 photos, you'll see d spike selling sno cone, coconuts and 'Jeans' and 'Dinahs' in the background
He used to live in a hut in the swamp in Manzan untill those troops began using his outhouse for target practice
Furhter back still, he was the clown who was recording names of people coming off the Fatel Rozak and adding 'watee' to the end of peoples names
And guess who was the clown who broke the statue up on the hill overlooking Claxton Bay turnoff..........he, de statue, and de gyul e was pressin up against it all roll down de hill, cutting a sharp curve in the valley, where that dotish bend in the highway now follows.....

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Re: Local history Thread

Postby wagonrunner » September 6th, 2011, 1:04 pm

d spike wrote:No Seeker, the crash triniboy is talking about was a torpedo bomber Avenger.
Triniboy, the guns from that crashed plane were collected and are displayed in the Aviation Museum in Chagauramas.
Six (I believe) Grumman TBF Avengers were stationed at the airfield at Galera in Toco, as part of the anti-submarine war in "Torpedo Alley", as the area off our North Coast was called. This area was the most notorious stretch of water where German U-boats were concerned in WWII - even though if you 'google' "Torpedo Alley", you will get an area off America... (sigh, the things folks prefer to remember)
The Toco airfield was supposedly the only airfield in the world with a sharp curve at the end - as your undercarriage lifted off the ground at take-off, you needed to pull sharply to one side to avoid the light-house!

lil side stories.
http://tin-can.org/Battles/USS_UNDERHILL/uss_underhill.htm

http://www.ussunderhill.org/html/about_uss_underhill.html

interested due to my limited hearsay of macqueripe, so will continue searching for more info on it. :oops:

flashbacks yes.


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Re: Local history Thread

Postby d spike » September 6th, 2011, 8:13 pm

MG Man wrote:
cinco wrote:books sir
where have your read these things?


u eh go learn eh
if u look at all those WW2 photos, you'll see d spike selling sno cone, coconuts and 'Jeans' and 'Dinahs' in the background
He used to live in a hut in the swamp in Manzan untill those troops began using his outhouse for target practice
Furhter back still, he was the clown who was recording names of people coming off the Fatel Rozak and adding 'watee' to the end of peoples names
And guess who was the clown who broke the statue up on the hill overlooking Claxton Bay turnoff..........he, de statue, and de gyul e was pressin up against it all roll down de hill, cutting a sharp curve in the valley, where that dotish bend in the highway now follows.....

oh gorm... dry so yuh go sell out ah fellah... eh...

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Re: Local history Thread

Postby sMASH » September 6th, 2011, 8:19 pm

i knew it!!! twas no books, he was recalling his past.

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Re: Local history Thread

Postby d spike » September 6th, 2011, 8:38 pm

d spike wrote:Wallerfield was named after the American captain of a stricken aircraft that was tracking a German submarine. It was hit and going down, but the captain chose to stay behind and hold the plane steady while the crewmen jumped clear of the plane safely. There wasn't time for him to jump before it crashed.

:oops: :oops: :oops:
The ol' brain-box aint what it used to be...
I just 'googled' Wallerfield and found this:
Waller Field was named after United States Army Air Force Major Alfred J. Waller. Major Waller was a distinguished World War I combat pilot and was killed in the crash of Consolidated PB-2A, 35-50, on 11 December 1937 at Langley Field, Virginia.
Ouch. Now I have to go and dig up where I got that errant titbit from, and see how far my neurons have strayed...

MG Man wrote:didn't realize the carlsen field airfield was larger than the wallerfield complex!

Yeah, they have strayed far... Sorry MG, you're right. I mixed the two up.
Carlsen Field was the smaller one that was built later.
Airfield congestion at Waller became so acute that the combat aircraft, the bombers actually confronting the U-Boats had to be moved out to Edinburgh (Carlsen) Airfield when it was completed.

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Re: Local history Thread

Postby Seeker » September 6th, 2011, 9:20 pm

oh hoe

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Re: Local history Thread

Postby rollingstock » September 6th, 2011, 9:25 pm

Probably the best most informative thread on 2nr, thanks guys, especially d spike.

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Re: Local history Thread

Postby Seeker » September 7th, 2011, 9:32 am

yeah d spike really good.

Nealy all of my info is second hand, from my deceased Grandparents. They were good story tellers.

For example, my grandmother related an incident that happened during Bulter riots in 1930s. She remembered that the trade union leader visited Point Fortin and hundreds of people attended his meeting at frisco junction/roundabout. She wore her best clothes and bought a new hat for that event. The next thing happened...the authorities swooped down to apprenhend him. The people scattered. She remembered being trampled and her new hat fell in an open drain. She was vexed for days.

She also remembered when the strike was in full swing, Butler organized a group of people with their own transport (bikes) to ride throughout the areas with staple provisions on tow to feed the workers and their families affected by the strike.

My grandfather related air raid drills in point fortin; especially in the night; massive search lights near the refinary and armed patrols in the streets. About ration cards and likes. Airships flying overhead (probably anti-sub patrols) etc.

As a child back then I loved their stories and asked questions. I sorely missed them.

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Re: Local history Thread

Postby d spike » September 11th, 2011, 5:23 pm

Found this on the Nalis website:
Hyarima was said to be born around the beginning of the 17th century and was probably Nepuyo, which was a tribe of Araucan. He grew up in one of the northern encomiendas, but it was not clear if this was Tacarigus or Arauca. Around 1625, he escaped from the slavery and harsh conditions of the encomienda into the northeastern area of the Island which was outside Spanish control.

Hyarima's military prowess, and relentless determination to rid his country of Spanish colonists made him the obvious choice for warchief or cacique. He was an able leader and a great warrior, and he soon formed military alliances with Amerindian groups in the neighboring islands as well as with Dutch traders in Tobago.

In 1636 and 1637, he joined with Dutch forces based in Tobago to raid Spanish outposts in Trinidad and along the Orinoci.

It was these Dutch boys from Tobago who destroyed the English settlement at Anglais. I wonder if Hyarima was involved in this action?

On October 14th 1637 the most devastating attack was carried out against St. Joseph the main Spanish settlement on the island. During the attack, the Church and town buildings were looted and burned to the ground, with significant loss of life. The destruction of the town forced the survivors to withdraw temporarily to the main land.

Hyarima was both feared and respected by the Dutch and Spanish forces, who referred to him as ‘the great Chieftain of the Nepuyo people’, and his military activities in the North East of the island was one reason why the Spanish authorities were never able to effectively establish control of this area. It is often thought that Arima was named after Hyarima, but it is more likely that he took his name from Arima when elected Chieftain, as it was Araucan custom to name their Chiefs and Caciques after the villages and settlements.

Hyarima the folk hero has many attributes of the man- a great warrior and chieftan who devoted his life to preserving the way of life of his people and to expelling the Spanish invaders from their ancestral lands. His fierce and profound hatred and distress of the Spanish extended to the Church and its missionaries and he resisted their entry into his lands.


I was looking for some info to help my son with some school-related work, when I came across this true (and thus, rare) piece of info. Apparently there is a lot of misinformation on the internet about Hyarima and his involvement in the Arena debacle, due to well-meaning, fervent and imaginative folks who, in true bluefeteian style, claim he was a Carib, and that he planned the Arena massacre.

Speaking of misinformation, why is "Toco" listed as a Spanish place-name? It is Amerindian! Ignorance is bliss...

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Re: Local history Thread

Postby d spike » September 11th, 2011, 5:35 pm

d spike wrote:
cinco wrote:d spike can you share a list of books you read?
at least give me a book to start reading please

"A History of Aviation in Trinidad" by Gaylord Kelshall (sumting so, me t'inks);
"Spanish Trinidad" (good luck finding a copy o' that one);
(can't remember the name of this one but...) its the Journal of a French priest who worked here in the late 1800's.

This book is "Stories of Trinidad and St. Vincent in the Antilles", taken from the journal of Bertrand Cothonay O.P., 1882-1888. (2008) ISBN 978-976-8211-89-7

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Re: Local history Thread

Postby equipped2ripp » September 11th, 2011, 6:16 pm

triniboy wrote:Does anyone else know about this?

about 10-15 years ago, i read an article in the Trinidad Express where some hikers were hiking through the unfamiliar parts of the Northern range and they stumbled upon some metal debris which turned out to be reminants of a plane crash probably from a plane during ww2.

i never heard about this story ever again and was hoping someone else knows about this.



I also remembered reading an article in the Express or Guardian about someone digging up an old coin or artifact at a beach... can't remember what exactly it was. I probably was about 7-10 years old at the time when I read the article. Does any one know of this?
This was about 15-18 years ago if I could remember right.

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Re: Local history Thread

Postby cinco » September 11th, 2011, 8:43 pm

d spike wrote:
d spike wrote:
cinco wrote:d spike can you share a list of books you read?
at least give me a book to start reading please

"A History of Aviation in Trinidad" by Gaylord Kelshall (sumting so, me t'inks);
"Spanish Trinidad" (good luck finding a copy o' that one);
(can't remember the name of this one but...) its the Journal of a French priest who worked here in the late 1800's.

This book is "Stories of Trinidad and St. Vincent in the Antilles", taken from the journal of Bertrand Cothonay O.P., 1882-1888. (2008) ISBN 978-976-8211-89-7

thank you sir i made a turn in a couple libraries to see if they are available
i will have to go to the national library and see
other than that i saw the history of aviation selling for 75us on amazon

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Re: Local history Thread

Postby d spike » September 11th, 2011, 11:14 pm

equipped2ripp wrote:I also remembered reading an article in the Express or Guardian about someone digging up an old coin or artifact at a beach... can't remember what exactly it was. I probably was about 7-10 years old at the time when I read the article. Does any one know of this?
This was about 15-18 years ago if I could remember right.

(snatches pail and shovel) Good sir, please pm me as soon as you remember which beach.

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Re: Local history Thread

Postby d spike » September 12th, 2011, 2:57 am

d spike wrote:Apparently there is a lot of misinformation on the internet about Hyarima and his involvement in the Arena debacle, due to well-meaning, fervent and imaginative folks who, in true bluefeteian style, claim he was a Carib, and that he planned the Arena massacre.


I would like to explain the above rant.
Almost every request on "google" regarding Hyarima came up with the following:
There is a statue in Arima commemorating Hyarima, an Amerindian cacique and the Amerindian people of Trinidad and Tobago. Below is an inscription about the Carib warrior leader:
The last great leader of this nation's indigenous people was Hyarima. He was a Nepuypo - a sub-tribe of the Carinepogoto (Carib) whose villages were established throughout northeast Trinidad.

He was involved in the last successful revolt by this island's indigenous people. This took place in December 1699 against the Capuchin Missionaries of San Francisco de los Arenales and the then Governor Don Jose de Leon y Echales in Arena.

If the goodly chief escaped from one of the northern encomiendas in Tacarigua or Arauca (Arouca) around 1625, and the Arena debacle took place in 1699... then assuming that he ran away at the age of six (this is for the sake of an argument - he was accepted as an adult at this time)... he would have been 80 years old at the time of the Arena Massacre!
Now then, what was the expected life-span of an Amerindian in the 1600's? :roll:
Good grief, the man was leading attacks by Dutch and Amerindians in 1636...
Certainly, if Hyarima was involved in any way in the debacle at Arena, or in what followed, you can be sure the Spaniards, desperate for good news, would have mentioned it in light of what took place...

The Arena Massacre wasn't planned. Neither was it part of any organized uprising.
The small group of Capuchins who were in charge of the settlement at Arena were instructing the Indians in the building of a church. The Indians, who never built anything more sophisticated than an ajoupa - for good reason, for in the tropics, it made more sense in a Stone-age society to completely rebuild a simple shelter than to maintain and repair a complex structure - and preferred to spend the heated part of the day at rest, didn't see the point of the hasty construction of the excessively complicated (their opinion) worship-house - didn't the holy men seem happy to perform their religious rites in the open, and later, in a small chapel built for such a purpose?
The notes in Spanish Trinidad state that the construction was hasty due to the impending visit by the Governor.

Somewhere along the way, a priest was remonstrating in the middle of the day with an Indian for either the wrong placing of a plank or the breaking of that plank (I can't remember which) and the Indian, tired with the noise which was interrupting his work - which in turn was interrupting his siesta - shut the priest up with a well-placed blow with the said plank, killing him. Another priest, seeing the action but not being fully aware of its result, ran up and started chastising the Indian for hitting the first priest. The Indian then continued to practise his swing on this next Spaniard, with the same result. By this time, it had become a spectator sport... and the spectators became moved to join in on the action. So they moved in a large noisy group towards the chapel, while some others, who clearly didn't wish to travel far in the heat, took to breaking down the unfinished church.
The third priest, disturbed by the noise, ran out of the chapel, and upon seeing the rapidly approaching mob - who were clearly disturbed as well - and the rapidly diminishing church (and apparently being a far more realistic person than his two deceased colleagues) realized the situation... he took one look at the congregation, and fled back inside, knelt at the little altar, choosing to spend his last moments talking to someone in a much higher office. That didn't have any better results, and he was dragged outside and dismembered.

The Indians then dragged out everything from inside the chapel, gouging out the eyes of the wooden statues, then breaking them up.

When everyone calmed down afterward (in a manner of speaking), the older heads made the people realize that the Spaniards would not take this lightly... and while different arguments were made as to what should be done next, more bad news arrived - the Governor and his men were approaching the village.
Men from the village armed themselves and went out, choosing a spot just outside the settlement to ambush the Spaniards.
This action was also quite successful and all the Spaniards were taken down - with one exception. This exception, a wounded soldier, fled back to St, Joseph (certainly not unscathed, as he died of his wounds) bringing word of the uprising.

It seems that the Indians found making decisions regarding thrashing Spaniards simple, but decisions regarding large-scale retreat hard. (The Yao, on the other hand, by general consent abandoned Trinidad completely by 1600, fed-up of the Spaniards' "borrowing" their women-folk - the words of Wareo, a former Moruga Yao cacique, who burnt their houses and gardens before leaving.)
Some of the hot-headed younger ones wanted to head north-east, and hide on the coast among the Caribs who lived there.
The larger group, led by the older ones (who knew that survival depended on putting great distances involving open water between themselves and the Spanish) wanted to head south across to the mainland.
Both groups headed East for a while then split up, each hoping to have eluded the Spaniards who didn't care to venture too far from the West coast.
They underestimated the passion of the Spaniard conquistador, who rated revenge almost as high as gold...

The Spanish soldiers from St. Joseph caught up with the larger south-bound group first, and repaid them in the same coin as was dealt the Capuchins at Arena. Due to the massive slaughter, this place was called Big Blood - in Spanish, "Sangre Grande". A small group of Indians escaped the massacre and continued fleeing... but the soldiers caught up with them and continued the slaughter. This place is called Little Blood - "Sangre Chiquito".
The soldiers turned northward and chased the last group right to the North coast, catching up with them on the cliffs at Galera.
The story is told that Indian men and women, preferring death to Spanish "mercy", threw their babies and children into the sea and then followed them.
Not all died that easily.
The Spaniards were able to restrain themselves and keep 84 captured Indians for later. A few were hanged and dismembered, while the rest were placed in slavery.

Trinidad Guardian, November 30, 1999, had an article (the source of which I am unaware) in which it claimed 84 "rebels" were captured and brought back to St Joseph. Here is an excerpt:
In 1699, the Spanish colonial government in Trinidad quelled an Amerindian uprising in Arena, captured the rebels and tried them for their crimes, which included the murders of the governor of the island, several priests and their slaves. The captives were tortured until they confessed their part in what came to be known as the Arena Massacre, and 22 adult men of the lot were hanged in the public square of the capital. The bodies were then decapitated, dismembered and strewn on the roadside to serve as an example to any other rebels who harboured thoughts of standing up to the Catholic Church in the colony. The women and children who were implicated in the event were given as "body servants" to Spanish inhabitants of the colony.

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Re: Local history Thread

Postby Mark! » September 12th, 2011, 3:47 am

Isn't it true that these perceived 'Caribs', do not like to be called by such name?

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