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Long Term Cost of Ownership Hybrid/Electric

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Chimera
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Re: Long Term Cost of Ownership Hybrid/Electric

Postby Chimera » August 25th, 2022, 12:50 pm

pugboy wrote:anybody show me a roro car with more than 28k i will buy them lunch

Phone Surgeon wrote:i feel all of them does roll back the mileage.

and mileage and battery life go hand in hand because everything have a life span
What kinda lunch?

I win that bet.
My car come with around 100k km

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Re: Long Term Cost of Ownership Hybrid/Electric

Postby pugboy » August 25th, 2022, 12:50 pm

oops lol

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Re: Long Term Cost of Ownership Hybrid/Electric

Postby nervewrecker » August 25th, 2022, 12:54 pm

Bimmerhead wrote:To answer the questions above.

- She has documents to show, but off the top of her head she told me roughly 1 month and 3-4 weeks without a courtesy vehicle.

- Honestly i am not aware of her specific situation and driving pattern to tell whether her environment or driving patterns could have impacted the situation (whatever it is).

- Vehicle is routinely serviced (Based on Massy's Schedule) at Massy hasn't been touched by another mechanic, i made the suggestion to her to check Striver's and another guy i saw on FB that makes videos about Hyrbids and seem knowledgeable but she's a dealership type of person so i dont suspect she would be moving the car until whatever issue is sorted out by them.

As tuner is a forum and this is ole talk, i figured i'd share her case as im not certain if it is unique or common or can assist someone in decision making.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

With regards to the Aquas and their batteries, i suspect soon there will be an influx of Aqua's with poor batteries and supply may not be able to satisfy demand especially considering the cost associated. Very curious to see how this goes.
Let your friend ask which of the stealership techs have a garage.

Vehicle will park up for months by any stealership for something that could fix in half day. They will leave it for months for you to bring it for a service by them and next at the firm. You space it out and keep your warranty with the firm. Deal does cut inside to look the next side when racket running.

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Re: Long Term Cost of Ownership Hybrid/Electric

Postby hover11 » August 25th, 2022, 12:56 pm

Atm there is no law restricting roll back mileage of vehicles, locals do it as well when selling their vehicles. You don't trust mileage when buying cars anyway.

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Re: Long Term Cost of Ownership Hybrid/Electric

Postby st7 » August 25th, 2022, 1:38 pm

pugboy wrote:oops lol


bwahahahaha

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Re: Long Term Cost of Ownership Hybrid/Electric

Postby Chimera » August 25th, 2022, 1:52 pm

pugboy wrote:oops lol



i eh greedy

ill take 2 chicken asiago sandwich combos when wendys reopens

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Re: Long Term Cost of Ownership Hybrid/Electric

Postby adnj » August 25th, 2022, 1:54 pm

hover11 wrote:Atm there is no law restricting roll back mileage of vehicles, locals do it as well when selling their vehicles. You don't trust mileage when buying cars anyway.
You're wrong.

It fails under fraud, misrepresentation of sale.

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Re: Long Term Cost of Ownership Hybrid/Electric

Postby hover11 » August 25th, 2022, 2:01 pm

adnj wrote:
hover11 wrote:Atm there is no law restricting roll back mileage of vehicles, locals do it as well when selling their vehicles. You don't trust mileage when buying cars anyway.
You're wrong.

It fails under fraud, misrepresentation of sale.
Ok show me where it is explicitly written or better yet show me someone charged for such. I'll wait.... anyway if this is the case then tell me why so many businesses offer it PUBLICLY for a fee.

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Re: Long Term Cost of Ownership Hybrid/Electric

Postby adnj » August 25th, 2022, 2:02 pm

st7 wrote:ent good dealers does roll back mileage too?

does mileage affect battery life?
Simply speaking, yes. Charging cycles and time in service both dictate the longevity of the battery pack. Also of consideration is how battery was charged/discharged. A battery that is gently charged to no more than 80% maximum capacity and discharged to no less than 20% can live 30% longer in service, or more.

Many of the older hybrids are being dumped in foreign markets because of poor battery technology or mismatched charging methodologies.

Nearly every new hybrid sold outside of China carries a 10 year manufacturer's battery replacement warranty.

Expect a new hybrid battery to last 10 years. Expect to replace a hybrid battery at no more 12 to 15 years.
Last edited by adnj on August 25th, 2022, 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Long Term Cost of Ownership Hybrid/Electric

Postby adnj » August 25th, 2022, 2:19 pm

hover11 wrote:
adnj wrote:
hover11 wrote:Atm there is no law restricting roll back mileage of vehicles, locals do it as well when selling their vehicles. You don't trust mileage when buying cars anyway.
You're wrong.

It fails under fraud, misrepresentation of sale.
Ok show me where it is explicitly written or better yet show me someone charged for such. I'll wait.... anyway if this is the case then tell me why so many businesses offer it PUBLICLY for a fee.


Brokeass sufferers buying a used vehicle in "As is" condition don't count - that's you. Cheap vehicles are cheap for a reason. If you want protection, buy from a reputable seller.

Certification of odometer mileage is part of a new vehicle purchase agreement in TTO. Tampering is then contrary to the sales agreement and is therefore fraud.

You should know this. You keep on posting on Tuner that "sadly, there are no laws," regarding odometer rollback.

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Re: Long Term Cost of Ownership Hybrid/Electric

Postby hover11 » August 25th, 2022, 2:23 pm

adnj wrote:
hover11 wrote:
adnj wrote:
hover11 wrote:Atm there is no law restricting roll back mileage of vehicles, locals do it as well when selling their vehicles. You don't trust mileage when buying cars anyway.
You're wrong.

It fails under fraud, misrepresentation of sale.
Ok show me where it is explicitly written or better yet show me someone charged for such. I'll wait.... anyway if this is the case then tell me why so many businesses offer it PUBLICLY for a fee.


Brokeass sufferers buying a used vehicle in "As is" condition don't count - that's you. Cheap vehicles are cheap for a reason. If you want protection, buy from a reputable seller.

Certification of odometer mileage is part of a new vehicle purchase agreement in TTO. Tampering is then contrary to the sales agreement and is therefore fraud.

You should know this. You keep on posting on Tuner that "sadly, there are no laws," regarding odometer rollback.
K

I will tell the businesses that advertise roll back services that they are breaking the law

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Re: Long Term Cost of Ownership Hybrid/Electric

Postby adnj » August 25th, 2022, 2:26 pm

hover11 wrote:
adnj wrote:
hover11 wrote:
adnj wrote:
hover11 wrote:Atm there is no law restricting roll back mileage of vehicles, locals do it as well when selling their vehicles. You don't trust mileage when buying cars anyway.
You're wrong.

It fails under fraud, misrepresentation of sale.
Ok show me where it is explicitly written or better yet show me someone charged for such. I'll wait.... anyway if this is the case then tell me why so many businesses offer it PUBLICLY for a fee.


Brokeass sufferers buying a used vehicle in "As is" condition don't count - that's you. Cheap vehicles are cheap for a reason. If you want protection, buy from a reputable seller.

Certification of odometer mileage is part of a new vehicle purchase agreement in TTO. Tampering is then contrary to the sales agreement and is therefore fraud.

You should know this. You keep on posting on Tuner that "sadly, there are no laws," regarding odometer rollback.
K

I will tell the businesses that advertise roll back services that they are breaking the law
Hoover, we are talking about two different things. Sadly, you can't tell.

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Re: Long Term Cost of Ownership Hybrid/Electric

Postby maj. tom » August 25th, 2022, 2:40 pm

Look the agreement here from the Min. Trade and Industry, for people who buy used cars from registered dealers and not give $40K to some random person on facebook.

Page 19. Point 7.
https://tradeind.gov.tt/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Revised-Policy-and-Procedures-to-Regulate-the-Fully-Assembled-Right-Hand-Drive-Foreign-Used-Car-Industry-in-Trinidad-and-Tobago.pdf


However there's a fine point of detail in law breaking. It specifically says "while in the Dealer's possession." The odometer is rolled back on the export ports in Japan, and the dealer receives a certificate with the new mileage that they set it back to. So the dealer here did no wrong. There was a post on Trinituner a while back where you can get the actual mileage by paying for a report to the Japan Odometer Certification Institute. So my car came with about 20k km, saw the dealer cert and everything, he did indeed receive the car with that mileage. When i actually checked it was certified at at 165k km at the last inspection in JP, and showed that there was a software update done in Japan as well. The mileage was rolled back in Kyoto port to 20k km and it's done with an OBD-II Mileage Correction Tool unit for when actual repairs are done to the dashboard console. These things are done when the export country are developing nations with no actual law concerning these things, like the Caribbean and Sri Lanka which is a big RORO user from Singapore.

I did a post in more detail about all this a while ago, it's there to search and read for who wants to know more.

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Re: Long Term Cost of Ownership Hybrid/Electric

Postby hover11 » August 25th, 2022, 2:52 pm

maj. tom wrote:Look the agreement here from the Min. Trade and Industry, for people who buy used cars from registered dealers and not give $40K to some random person on facebook.

Page 19. Point 7.
https://tradeind.gov.tt/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Revised-Policy-and-Procedures-to-Regulate-the-Fully-Assembled-Right-Hand-Drive-Foreign-Used-Car-Industry-in-Trinidad-and-Tobago.pdf


However there's a fine point of detail in law breaking. It specifically says "while in the Dealer's possession." The odometer is rolled back on the export ports in Japan, and the dealer receives a certificate with the new mileage that they set it back to. So the dealer here did no wrong. There was a post on Trinituner a while back where you can get the actual mileage by paying for a report to the Japan Odometer Certification Institute. So my car came with about 20k km, saw the dealer cert and everything, he did indeed receive the car with that mileage. When i actually checked it was certified at at 165k km at the last inspection in JP, and showed that there was a software update done in Japan as well. The mileage was rolled back in Kyoto port to 20k km and it's done with an OBD-II Mileage Correction Tool unit for when actual repairs are done to the dashboard console. These things are done when the export country are developing nations with no actual law concerning these things, like the Caribbean and Sri Lanka which is a big RORO user from Singapore.

I did a post in more detail about all this a while ago, it's there to search and read for who wants to know more.
All this talk but can you stop the Japanese dealer from rolling back the vehicle no you cannot you just have to take his word and believe the certificate he gives you right.because fraud only occurs in TRINIDAD yall need to wake up...there are such things as fake certificates get real. I have seen many fake bill of ladings not everything is black and white.


Anyway show me someone that has been charged for odometer tampering in trinidad and Tobago.....patiently waiting
Last edited by hover11 on August 25th, 2022, 2:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Long Term Cost of Ownership Hybrid/Electric

Postby Bimmerhead » August 25th, 2022, 2:53 pm

Ok Folks,

Just got back from a lunch run with another colleague who drives a Honda Grace and she gets 16.9 KM/l and hasnt done any battery related maintenance only really oil/ filter changes in the 3 years she has owned the vehicle. Her opinion of the car is its a blessing no issues whatsoever and its interesting because i have been thinking and i dont think i see the battery concern expressed by Honda owners. NO OFFENSE TO THE TOYOTA OWNERS... but is there something there? are the Honda batteries more reliable or something? i tend to see Aqua, Fielder/Axio and Prius owners complaining about reconditioning etc but not the Honda owners and i know females with the Fit and Vezel (apart from the Grace colleague) and i dont think (could be wrong).

Any thoughts?

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Re: Long Term Cost of Ownership Hybrid/Electric

Postby maj. tom » August 25th, 2022, 2:54 pm

But didn't I just say that hover11?

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Re: Long Term Cost of Ownership Hybrid/Electric

Postby st7 » August 25th, 2022, 3:33 pm

why this jackass hover must hijack every thread so to complain wrong and strong about everything?

gtfo - nobody care about your dumbass who cant even buy a third-hand car without getting con, but you know what a fake something looks like

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Re: Long Term Cost of Ownership Hybrid/Electric

Postby hover11 » August 25th, 2022, 3:36 pm

st7 wrote:why this jackass hover must hijack every thread so to complain wrong and strong about everything?

gtfo - nobody care about your dumbass who cant even buy a third-hand car without getting con, but you know what a fake something looks like
K


When last you check your pressure though?

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Re: Long Term Cost of Ownership Hybrid/Electric

Postby pugboy » August 25th, 2022, 5:11 pm

if toyota giving 10yr or 100k miles warranty on the battery
why are these 5 year old car batteries lasting just a few more when the land here ?

is it that these roro cars are really very high mileage to the point the battery life is out even with 5 years remaining ?

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Re: Long Term Cost of Ownership Hybrid/Electric

Postby daring dragoon » August 25th, 2022, 5:20 pm

Phone Surgeon wrote:
daring dragoon wrote:so buying a used hybrid makes no sense ?
It does if you choose a good dealer or import it yourself.
The good dealers would care about their name

i meant a local used that was probably a foreign used. sorry

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Re: Long Term Cost of Ownership Hybrid/Electric

Postby redmanjp » August 25th, 2022, 5:28 pm

better to buy new or at least one where they give a warranty on the HV battery itself.

does the local toyota give that?

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Re: Long Term Cost of Ownership Hybrid/Electric

Postby Chimera » August 25th, 2022, 5:31 pm

pugboy wrote:if toyota giving 10yr or 100k miles warranty on the battery
why are these 5 year old car batteries lasting just a few more when the land here ?

is it that these roro cars are really very high mileage to the point the battery life is out even with 5 years remaining ?
I feel the servicing plays a major part. And that dealers buying the lowest grade worst quality for here. If you do a proper service as soon as u buy it based on what the real mileage is and then continue...you shouldn't get issues

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Re: Long Term Cost of Ownership Hybrid/Electric

Postby adnj » August 25th, 2022, 8:05 pm

Phone Surgeon wrote:
pugboy wrote:if toyota giving 10yr or 100k miles warranty on the battery
why are these 5 year old car batteries lasting just a few more when the land here ?

is it that these roro cars are really very high mileage to the point the battery life is out even with 5 years remaining ?
I feel the servicing plays a major part. And that dealers buying the lowest grade worst quality for here. If you do a proper service as soon as u buy it based on what the real mileage is and then continue...you shouldn't get issues
My personal opinion? I would never buy a used EV or HEV unless you have an acceptable provenance. It's too easy to swap in an inferior battery pack and roll back the mileage. You have no warranty. You have no legal recourse.

Most OEMs use Sanyo, Sony or Panasonic cells. Many aftermarket pack refurbishers use much less expensive new cells from a cheaper manufacturer or just use salvaged cells from scrapped packs.

There are jobbers that buy used fleet vehicles by the hundreds, recondition them, and then ship them overseas. Most developed countries do not allow the importation of those vehicles due to anti-dumping laws.

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Re: Long Term Cost of Ownership Hybrid/Electric

Postby pugboy » August 25th, 2022, 9:27 pm

neither me
esp how these local toro dealers have their mechanics who do that cell swapping nonsense

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Re: Long Term Cost of Ownership Hybrid/Electric

Postby nervewrecker » August 25th, 2022, 11:29 pm

The technology is still young and promising, give it time.

Most ICE supercars barely pass 700hp while electric exceed 1000hp easy.

The limitations appear to be range but the advent of change is upon us with NDB.

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Re: Long Term Cost of Ownership Hybrid/Electric

Postby pugboy » August 26th, 2022, 7:22 am

the aqua battery is nickel metal hydride which does not have the kick of lithium ion

I would not be surprised if those sales agent in japan swap the batteries too with old ones
they already crooked enough to roll back all the cars

anybody ever been to one of those yards where the delicensed cars(not bamboo scrapyards) are kept ?
a friend went to osaka in late 90s to bring down a 300zx, he said you can see cars as far as the eye can

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Re: Long Term Cost of Ownership Hybrid/Electric

Postby Chimera » August 26th, 2022, 8:15 am

pugboy wrote:the aqua battery is nickel metal hydride which does not have the kick of lithium ion

I would not be surprised if those sales agent in japan swap the batteries too with old ones
they already crooked enough to roll back all the cars

anybody ever been to one of those yards where the delicensed cars(not bamboo scrapyards) are kept ?
a friend went to osaka in late 90s to bring down a 300zx, he said you can see cars as far as the eye can


the first link is working with the youtube tags for some reason


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKO-Mnwg2Zc


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Re: Long Term Cost of Ownership Hybrid/Electric

Postby kamakazi » August 27th, 2022, 2:26 am

Whatever happened to the orbis ring wheel... To convert single axle drive vehicles to hybrid AWD. They had videos of a demo Civic SI or maybe a type R with the rear wheels adapted.

Also keeping an eye on the developments from the folks who used to be called On-point Dyno (think they renamed to mountain motorsports) as they adapt ev/hybrid tech for racing.

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Re: Long Term Cost of Ownership Hybrid/Electric

Postby sMASH » August 30th, 2022, 4:57 am

when the going gets tough, the tough use diesel.



https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/artic ... ebook-view

bloomberg wrote:Germany’s Switch to Diesel From Gas Comes at a Cost

With Russian gas supplies still at risk, German industry is turning to oil to power its factories. It may just be swapping one problem for another.
It’s a gas, gas gas. For now.

It’s a gas, gas gas. For now.Photographer: Krisztian Bocsi/Bloomberg
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Across Germany, executives have spent the last few months war gaming how to respond if Russian President Vladimir Putin cuts off gas supplies. And many, from tiny companies to global behemoths, have arrived at the same solution: switch to oil.

In Munich, the municipal utility has converted two gas-fired boilers to run on diesel. Further South, in the German Alps, the Berchtesgadener Land farming cooperative has sent two milk-truck drivers to learn how to handle an oil-delivery rig, just in case they need to buy. To the North, the Veltins beer brewery near Dusseldorf has stockpiled five weeks’ worth of diesel to prepare for an emergency shift away from gas.
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In some cases, it’s about burning fuel-oil in boilers and steam generators previously fired with natural gas; in others, it’s about running diesel generators to avoid electricity blackouts.

Berlin is quietly encouraging the shift. Wiegand-Glas, which produces glass bottles, was able to get the paperwork needed to prepare its furnaces to run using heating oil rather than gas in days, for example. “I have promised to reduce the bureaucracy when converting systems to an absolute minimum,” Anja Siegesmund, the regional environmental minister, said.

Privately, oil traders say they are getting inquiries from German companies that either haven’t previously bought fuel-oil or diesel, or abandoned the practice many years, or even, decades ago.

Take Covestro AG, a chemicals company that produces the building blocks of plastics. For years, it has relied on natural gas. But earlier this week, it told investors during its second-quarter results presentation that it was “initiating various measures to reduce its gas requirements in Germany in the short term, such as by switching to oil-based steam generators.”

The incentive to reduce gas consumption is huge after Putin reduced supplies to Germany via the Nord Steam 1 pipeline. The Dutch TTF gas contract, a European benchmark, is trading above 205 euros ($209) per megawatt hour, 10 times its average in the decade through 2020 and equivalent to about $350 per barrel of oil. Meanwhile, Brent crude is hovering around $100 per barrel. Hans-Ulrich Engel, BASF SE’s chief financial officer, did the math earlier this month: at prevailing prices, “it may actually be cheaper to use, as an example, heating oil to produce your steam, than use very expensive natural gas,” he said.
Hot Gas

European natural gas prices have surged to an all-time high this year, rising to the equivalent of $350 per barrel of oil

Sources: ICE and Bloomberg

The consequences are twofold. German industry, long used to running on cheap Russian energy supplies, may be able to reduce its reliance on gas by more than previously thought without having to shut down completely. German gas demand is already running well below its five-year average for this time of year. Morgan Stanley reckons that German industrial gas consumption fell 24% in July from the same month in 2021. If the trend continues, European gas prices may not rise as much as feared, even if Putin completely shuts down exports later this year. The worst-case scenario, with TTF prices surging above 300 euros or even 400 euros, may be avoided. But the corollary may be a surge in German oil demand this winter well above anything currently estimated, potentially boosting global petroleum prices.

The size of the potential for incremental oil consumption is hotly debated, with bears and bulls offering good reasons for optimism and pessimism. Last year, oil bulls anticipated a significant demand boost from fuel-oil fired power plants that never materialized. Nonetheless, Energy Aspects Ltd., a consultant, estimates that if all of Europe’s oil-fired electricity plants operate this winter, it would add an extra 340,000 barrels per day to the continent’s demand. To put that into context, it’s larger than the 200,000 barrels per day increase in European oil demand anticipated by the International Energy Agency for 2023.

Moreover, those numbers don’t take into account the potential explosion in the use of diesel-fired generators and the use of heating oil and fuel-oil in industrial boilers and steam generators. With little hard data about how many companies have refurbished their boilers to run on oil, and how many others have purchased emergency power generators, any estimate is more conjecture than forecast. Still, some oil traders and consultants are penciling in a further 200,000 barrels a day in Germany and neighboring nations.
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The gas-to-oil switch faces enormous obstacles, however. BASF, the German chemical behemoth, is paradigmatic of the difficulties. In a presentation to investors last week, the company said that preparations to substitute natural gas with, for example, fuel oil, were “progressing well,” echoing what other German companies have said in the last few weeks. But it included a big caveat in a tiny footnote: “Precondition is the sufficient availability of fuel oil.”

If companies in Europe’s biggest economy switch to oil from gas simultaneously this winter, it could potentially just trade one problem — gas shortages — for a second issue — a tighter market for diesel.
Economic Workhorse

European wholesale diesel prices have fallen from the all-time high set after Russian invaded Ukraine, but remain at historically elevated levels

Sources: ICE and Bloomberg

For now, European diesel has stabilized at around $1,000 per metric ton, down from a record of about $1,500 in early March, days after the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Yet the market will have to contend with the coming ban on Russian refined products, which will be fully effective by early February and will reduce diesel supply into Europe just when purchases may be peaking.

Diesel is the workhorse of the global economy. Since the beginning of the crisis, it has been the hottest refined product, even if it’s often overshadowed by US gasoline prices. As German industry prepares to wean itself off Russian gas in the coming months, diesel prices may start to dominate the headlines — for all the wrong reasons.

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Re: Long Term Cost of Ownership Hybrid/Electric

Postby nervewrecker » August 30th, 2022, 5:36 am

Strange they chose that fuel source and not methanol which they actually produce globally.

Demand and supply?

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