Why P/W Ratio Classing is Justified

[sirbill]

lemme repeat an unpopular statement.
classing vehicles for dex, by p/w makes no sense, unless their handling is identical, or close.

but in similar chassis, they would be competitive in the same class.

I do not agree with this statement at all. In the early days of SoloDex, the then committee agreed that when a (good) manufacturer makes a car in different power trim levels, they usually match suspension changes to power changes. So e.g., a DX Civic with a 1.5L engine would have a certain set of shocks/springs combo, sway bars, and drum brakes. When the same CHASSIS is used in the Civic SiR model, the car comes with rear disk brakes, added rear sway bars and thicker front, upgraded shocks & springs etc.

So the Increased Power is matched with increase handling potential to deal with the higher average speeds possible.

This is why P/W Ratio is justified for classing, and widely used internationally as a way to rank cars into a base class.

If someone does a backyard chop job, adds gobs of power without dealing with suspension issues too, that is their problem and will never be competative in SoloDex. That is an entirely different story, but unfortunately, that guy will also be classed based on PW/R and not idiotic modding.

[r3iXmann]

makes sense...and the points compensate for upgraded suspensions and such

[wagonrunner]

cool.
some dialog between myself and scca from back then

Is this done by a power to weight ratio?
and if so, what are the p/w ratios for your classes?

this is something we have been using for autocross purposes. this is vehicle weigh in pounds, divided by wheel horsepower (lb/bhp)

The classing is done practically. A new car is placed roughly based on its performance potential, and then moved up or down based on how well it does compard to other cars in the class it's in in the Nationals competition, i.e. driven by the best drivers. This reclassing can continue over some yea

any idea where i can get that info though?

There is a link to SCCA on my classification s page, right at the top.

But as I said, P/W ratio is not used.

will forward the email to the relevant ppl.

EMAIL SENT

[wagonrunner]

sirbill,
i can only speak using the little experience i have.
a B13 same engine and drive train as my wingroad, both stock from factory, handle very differently.
musbe nissan again.

yet, a honda civic hatch, and a civic sedan, and a civic coupe also expereince some difference in handling, again using the same powertrain.
no mods there either, and yet....................

moving on to a libero 4wd wagon, and a 1800GSR...............same drivetrain, and yet....................

[moti]

^^^you have a point

b15,almera and ad wagon

thats why i always wondered why advil did better times than me when i had the ad wagon

though i can't drive i am speaking of 5-8 seconds difference between both vehicles

oh and advil is a 1.3 i think


huh i really can't drive then

[Rudman]

sirbill,
i can only speak using the little experience i have.
a B13 same engine and drive train as my wingroad, both stock from factory, handle very differently.
musbe nissan again.

yet, a honda civic hatch, and a civic sedan, and a civic coupe also expereince some difference in handling, again using the same powertrain.
no mods there either, and yet....................

moving on to a libero 4wd wagon, and a 1800GSR...............same drivetrain, and yet....................

On the same note, a 1800 Turbo Mirage with FWD does be giving them EVOs and Subbies with more horsepower and 4WD some good pressure!...

[r3iXmann]

yet, a honda civic hatch, and a civic sedan, and a civic coupe also expereince some difference in handling, again using the same powertrain.
no mods there either, and yet....................

different suspensions,different body geometrics each model has another submodel with different specifications

[sirbill]

yet, a honda civic hatch, and a civic sedan, and a civic coupe also expereince some difference in handling, again using the same powertrain.
no mods there either, and yet....................

different suspensions,different body geometrics each model has another submodel with different specifications

thanks for explaining that.
so therefore in accordance with this thread...........................

We should not take that into consideration sorry. If Honda makes a better car than a Nissan of the same "spec" too bad, get a Honda. I am not being a Honda fan boy here, we are just using the examples presented, so let's not stray off topic flaming me and/or Honda.

As your SCCA response suggests (of which I fully agree), these things should be watched over a few years and cars moved up or down a class, IF it can be proven that it is the car and NOT the driver making the difference. That is what we fail to do down in this little part of the world, we fail to do the maths. We also tend to fail in being able to watch a man in his eye from a purely objective standpoint and tell him - sorry your car is better than its class - we have to bump it and all like it up. When one does that, all manner of "cry fowl", "victimization" etc. comes out.

But what I want to make clear, this is CARS game, with CARS rules. While every attempt should be made by each successive administration to improve the sport and the fairness of competition, while playing in CARS's game, you must abide by its rules or skate out. That is the choice.

And please, I am not on the CARS executive, so I am not talking on CARS's behalf. If any of you have a problem with what I just said, address me, not the CARS people trying their best to do a job as well as they can.

[wagonrunner]

sirbill,
bil, i agree with most of what you wrote above.
i disagree however, that p/w is the end all, and most perfect method classing cars, that's all.

taking reixmanns point of teh differences in suspension geometry, and magnifying it now amongst different manufacturers.

and taking your comment (lightly), does this mean we should have a Honda dex?
Or is the result we're tryign to acheive, you can bring ANYTHING, and run it where it fits with as little mechanical disadvantage as possible.

[r3iXmann]

sirbill,
bil, i agree with most of what you wrote above.
i disagree however, that p/w is the end all, and most perfect method classing cars, that's all.

taking reixmanns point of teh differences in suspension geometry, and magnifying it now amongst different manufacturers.

and taking your comment (lightly), does this mean we should have a Honda dex?
Or is the result we're tryign to acheive, you can bring ANYTHING, and run it where it fits with as little mechanical disadvantage as possible.

I forgot to mention weight

but,not saying that the p/w is the best,but it comes across as the most feasible base start. Another option would be to create a point system which is awarded based on the car,the model and each individual 'performance' component which I'd assume would be quite (unnecessarily) tedious.

what do you propose wagonrunner?

[wagonrunner]

using w/p as a guide is great.
discrepancies can only be solved one way.
make the only variable the car.
the other variables are ............. track (karting track).
driver..........................any previous champ of champs (solodex overall champ), especially if experienced in same type of car.

*goes back paying tribute to stig deity*

[sirbill]

sirbill,
bil, i agree with most of what you wrote above.
i disagree however, that p/w is the end all, and most perfect method classing cars, that's all.

taking reixmanns point of teh differences in suspension geometry, and magnifying it now amongst different manufacturers.

and taking your comment (lightly), does this mean we should have a Honda dex?
Or is the result we're tryign to acheive, you can bring ANYTHING, and run it where it fits with as little mechanical disadvantage as possible.

Of course we are trying to encourage all, but if you bring a bucket of bolts loosely held together with chewing gum, should any car club bend over backwards to make sure that person get's a fair deal? Half the fun of Dex (for me at least) is driving, not winning, so if you don't have a competative car and you know it, one should not try to coerce the rule makers into accommodating your pocket book for a win.

P/W is not the end all, hence the adoption of the Canadian Performance Penalty Point System this year, penalizing mods that for the most part to date, have gone for free. But it is generally accepted as a good way to get a base class for a car, which can then be modified by the car's overall performance as witnessed by several competitors' performance, not just one man's results who may just really be that good (or bad) a driver.

And addressing your comment about my comment regarding Hondas, also very lightly, the answer is RUM.

[wagonrunner]

and the post above you.

[SR]

sombody say honda dex?????????
why not ent it already have 4 wheel drive dex aka evo/subaro shootout
i agree fully with sirbill on this


one of the reasons why i dont bother to compete in dex anymore due to the consistant fighting of people trying to remain in a lower class so they could win but at the same time discouraging newcomers


unfortunatly its the same across the board in competition in car audio as well

and the new person sitting on the sidelines is only saying to himslef.........i wah compete but i cant afford all those mods them fellas have in my class........

[wagonrunner]

I forgot to mention weight

forgot to include the differences in weight are negligable enough taht they'd all be in the same class.
at least according to the info i have.

98 civic vti sedan and hatch both at 1050kg.

SR,
yuh had that already, so create yuh own thread for a next one.

[SR]

nah not interested after the last fiasco

[eliteauto]

one of the reasons why i dont bother to compete in dex anymore due to the consistant fighting of people trying to remain in a lower class so they could win but at the same time discouraging newcomers

and the new person sitting on the sidelines is only saying to himslef.........i wah compete but i cant afford all those mods them fellas have in my class........

And therein lies the rub, this can be either a motivator or a discouragement, on one end, you will have persons who will look at the dominating drivers and aspire either through vehicle tweaks and driver experience/skills and at the same time those who think the sport is about run what you brung will be discouraged by the same dominant drivers

[MG Man]

there were 41 competitors at the last dex.
Whether SR there or not is irrelevant

[SR]

again mg man u still climbing out of dustbins or that chip on your shoulder bigger than your head

[wagonrunner]

thread was going nice.

[Rudman]

I foresee another lockdown imminent

[MG Man]

heeeeeeeey
all I saying is look ohw far dex has come...41 competitors
The Novice class alone now is more than a good overall turnout just a few years ago.....one spoon less in the soup bowl not gonna make a difference

[SR]

right right

pity you werent around when dex first started

i wonder if sirbill still had the original set of rules for classifications that were used

[MG Man]

my competition number is 12

[wagonrunner]

so yuh cyah play whose d older dinosaur in a next thread?
bill start a nice topice, and i for one was happy with the discussion thus far.

[MG Man]

I think the consensus is both you and bill have valid points. That said, no matter what the system, there will always be a compromise, and there will always be cars that defy easy classification. I think Bill's point is that the P/W system might be the 'best fit'
I tend to agree. Take the HSR for example. Clearly ESP based on P/W.....the brakes, tyres and everything else are outdated. Put it against say, a SiR Civic, and the Civic has some clear advantages, such as ABS and better tyre choices. HOWEVER, it would be unfair to class the HSR in anything other than ESP......I just have to try harder....so....long and short is, cars that defy simple classing are what they are. It is up to the owners to decide whether to compete.

[SUPAstarr]

I think the consensus is both you and bill have valid points. That said, no matter what the system, there will always be a compromise, and there will always be cars that defy easy classification. I think Bill's point is that the P/W system might be the 'best fit'
I tend to agree. Take the HSR for example. Clearly ESP based on P/W.....the brakes, tyres and everything else are outdated. Put it against say, a SiR Civic, and the Civic has some clear advantages, such as ABS and better tyre choices. HOWEVER, it would be unfair to class the HSR in anything other than ESP......I just have to try harder....so....long and short is, cars that defy simple classing are what they are. It is up to the owners to decide whether to compete.

[/discussion of rules]

[SR]

and i agree with bill's view on the power to wait ratio as well

[wagonrunner]

to recap.
i agreed its a good guide to start, but cannot be the end all when as Kevin said, there are cars that "defy easy classification".

[SR]

hence you have 2 classes within the one class

ie

ESP for straight power to rate then ESP R or sport or whatever for additional mods ie tyres suspension etc

wasnt it like this years ago