The Religion Discussion

[York]

Muslims use scholars to explain the text, qualified scholars who produce the evidence for their explanation...not anyone whims and fancies. What does the bible / Christian scholars say? Quote them.

[bluesclues]

Qur'an chapter Fussilat (41) verses 9-12.

The creation of the heavens commenced but was not completed, the earth was created and completed when the heavens was still smoke, then the creation of the heavens was completed.

So technically the earth was created first, before the heavens, when we look at completion.

the earth was completed after heaven was created. but the heavens were still smoke when the earth was completed. the creation of heaven had already commenced. so no its not that earth was created before the heavens, but was completed before the heavens were complete. the smoke would then refer to planets in a gaseous state pre-solidificationto solar formation.

[BoxEater]

If there is a religion discussion on this forum , can we have a race discussion as well????

Since this forum doesnt promote prejudice then the race forum shouldnt promote racialism right??

Just need the ok before i start a race thread

[Cantmis]

If there is a religion discussion on this forum , can we have a race discussion as well????

Since this forum doesnt promote prejudice then the race forum shouldnt promote racialism right??

Just need the ok before i start a race thread

[York]

Qur'an chapter Fussilat (41) verses 9-12.

The creation of the heavens commenced but was not completed, the earth was created and completed when the heavens was still smoke, then the creation of the heavens was completed.

So technically the earth was created first, before the heavens, when we look at completion.

the earth was completed after heaven was created. but the heavens were still smoke when the earth was completed. the creation of heaven had already commenced. so no its not that earth was created before the heavens, but was completed before the heavens were complete. the smoke would then refer to planets in a gaseous state pre-solidificationto solar formation.

Yes hence the term "smoke".

[York]

The religion of Islam does not contradict science.

[MG Man]

that doesn't mean t's not poo

[Habit7]

The religion of Islam does not contradict science.

Quran 18:83-86 And they ask you about Dhul-Qarnain. Say: "I shall recite to you something of his story." Verily, We established him in the earth, and We gave him the means of everything. So he followed a way. Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water. And he found near it a people. We (Allah) said (by inspiration): "O Dhul-Qarnain! Either you punish them, or treat them with kindness."

Sunan Abu Dawud 3991—Abu Dharr said: I was sitting behind the Apostle of Allah who was riding a donkey while the sun was setting. He asked: Do you know where this sets? I replied: Allah and his Apostle know best. He said: It sets in a spring of warm water.

[crock101]

Islam makes claims that go against very basic scientific principles. It claims that the human body is formed in this order, skeleton then muscles then skin. This is not a factual claim.
But if the Quran is the word of God and that God would be expected to be right, God supposedly made, us how can he be wrong about how we are formed.
The answer is simple , these religious books are not the word of God, and even more likely ,God does not and has never existed.these are just stories made up by primitive desert dwellers who knew very little about the world they live in. There is even a horse with wings in that book, how can any adult take these stories seriously.

[BoxEater]

If there is a religion discussion on this forum , can we have a race discussion as well????

Since this forum doesnt promote prejudice then the race forum shouldnt promote racialism right??

Just need the ok before i start a race thread

Still waiting for the ok from mods???

[York]

D mods are anti-racist?

[York]

The religion of Islam does not contradict science.

Quran 18:83-86 And they ask you about Dhul-Qarnain. Say: "I shall recite to you something of his story." Verily, We established him in the earth, and We gave him the means of everything. So he followed a way. Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water. And he found near it a people. We (Allah) said (by inspiration): "O Dhul-Qarnain! Either you punish them, or treat them with kindness."

Sunan Abu Dawud 3991—Abu Dharr said: I was sitting behind the Apostle of Allah who was riding a donkey while the sun was setting. He asked: Do you know where this sets? I replied: Allah and his Apostle know best. He said: It sets in a spring of warm water.

83 And they ask you about Dhul-Qarnain. Say: "I shall recite to you something of his story."

84 Verily, We established him in the earth, and We gave him the means of everything.

85 So he followed a way.

86 Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water. And he found near it a people. We (Allah) said (by inspiration): "O Dhul-Qarnain! Either you punish them, or treat them with kindness."

87 He said: "As for him (a disbeliever in the Oneness of Allah) who does wrong, we shall punish him, and then he will be brought back unto his Lord, Who will punish him with a terrible torment (Hell).

88 "But as for him who believes (in Allah's Oneness) and works righteousness, he shall have the best reward, (Paradise), and we (Dhul-Qarnain) shall speak unto him mild words (as instructions)."

89 Then he followed another way,

90 Until, when he came to the rising place of the sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We (Allah) had provided no shelter against the sun.

91 So (it was)! And We knew all about him (Dhul-Qarnain).

92 Then he followed (another) way,

93 Until, when he reached between two mountains, he found, before (near) them (those two mountains), a people who scarcely understood a word.

Firstly about the statements from the Qur'an:

The relevant verses from Chapter 18 are quoted to show the context of the statement and that it describes the places where it "appears" that the sun is setting, rising and thirdly between 2 mountains.

The verse, as is obvious, is not referring to a scientific reality, but to a person's vision. In other words, the verse is not saying that the sun, at the referred place, used to set in a murky lake; on the contrary, it is informing us that Dhu al-Qarnain reached a place where it appeared to him as if the sun was setting in a murky lake. This, "non-scientific", observation has been mentioned in the referred words to imply that at that time Dhu al-Qarnain reached a place from where if one were to look westwards, he would find nothing but the murky waters of the sea/lake and thus, it would appear to him as if the sun was setting in the lake.

The referred phrase of the Qur'an is as "unscientific" as we are used to saying: "I saw the sun setting behind the mountain". In fact, all the phrases like "... at the rising of the sun" (implying early morning), "... at the setting of the sun" (implying evening), "... when the sun is going down" (implying evening), and "... when the sun is hot" (implying noon) are "unscientific'. Nevertheless, they are still used in most of the human languages (including the Bible as well as the Qur'an). We do not, however, consider these phrases to be scientifically incorrect, because of the mere fact that we do not construe them to refer to any scientific realities at all. All these phrases are used to convey a particular meaning, which is more than clear for all those who hear them.

Secondly, about the hadith quoted from Sunan Abu Daud:

As to the hadith in question, there are several hadiths worded similarly but without the words, "sets in a spring of warm water." If all the hadiths that are related are read, it can easily be appreciated that the quoted part is an error. The evidence is that each of the other hadiths end the with reference to the Qu'ranic verse from Surah Al Kahf 36:38, which notes the sun's path (from the human perspective and from which we benefit) as a sign of God. Instead, in the hadith in question someone has erroneously managed to substitute one verse for another. In other words, instead of ending the hadith with the verse from Surah Al Kahf 18:86 the narrator replaced it with a verse from Surah Ya-Sin 36:38.

In analyzing the two hadiths (found in Abu Dawood #3991 and Musnad Ahmad #20933) that have this mistake - as opposed to the multiple hadiths that do not transfer the mistake - it becomes clear that the first source to report the hadith in the incorrect form is Al Hakam Al 'Utaybah. His version is clearly a deviation from the multiple hadiths cited by other narrators. Additionally, he has only one person, Sufyan bin Hussain, narrating from him. While both narrators are generally considered reliable, there are a few scholars that voice some reservations about them. Following are the observations of the scholars about the two narrators:

Al Hakam Al 'Utaybah

Abu Hatim bin Hibban Al Yasti said: "He used to engage in Tadlees (i.e. implying that a hadith comes from someone when it didn't or being ambiguous about the source or omitting a weak narrator who was in between two reliable narrators who have met each other)."
Abdul Rahman bin Mahdi said: "Steadfast reliability but vary meanings of hadith."
Ibn Hajar said: "Steadfast trustworthiness, jurist, except he may have committed Tadlees."
Sufyan bin Hussain

Muhammad Ibn Sa'd said: "He was reliable but made many mistakes in [transmitting] hadiths.
Ibn Hajar Al Asqalani said: "Yaqoub bin Sheebah said, 'honest, reliable and in his hadiths there are weaknesses.' 'Uthman bin Abi Sheebah declared him, 'reliable except he used to be a bit confused/disorderly.'"

So while Al Albani (ra) certifies that the chain of narrators is solid, its contents come into question along with any potential flaws contributing to the problem. The point here is not to shed a negative light upon these narrators but to put in perspective that an error was made and because of their noted flaws this may have been the reason this version of the hadith developed. Keep in mind, there are multiple versions of this hadith but without the words "the sun sets in a warm spring." When one seeks this hadith in Muslim (ra) and Bukhari (ra) there is no mention of the phrase. These two sources are the most authentic books of hadith and must be given proper consideration.

Lastly, it is clear that with the number of hadiths that report it differently than the one cited above combined with the fact that they come from only one narrator who was also criticized, makes the case that this hadith has been reported wrongly. Thus, the "critics" of Islam have no basis to their argument if they have not appreciated the actual statement of the hadith. Had they attempted to understand better they may have realized that the hadith in question is unreliable.

See the science of hadith at work! Bukhari and Muslim are the most authentic. Imam Maalik's Muwatta, and the 4 Sunan books of hadith - Abu Daud, Nasaa'i, Tirmidhi and Ibn Maajah contain Authentic as well as good and weak narrations. The weak narrations have fabricated narrations (lies) as a sub-set.

Narrations require authentication and comparison with other narrations (hadith) with the same / similar text (wording) and critique of the persons in the chain of narrators to look at issues of memory, accuracy, honesty, trustworthiness and reliability.

To conclude:

It is obvious that the Qur'an is not saying the sun sets in such a place. Habit the Qur'an and Islam will beat you every time you come with your propaganda.

You could have just as well "googled" and found the answer / appropriate response but you are hell-bent on your polytheist ways. You have a bligh today, it's the birthday of your God!

[Habit7]

Firstly it is Allah who is doing the narrative not Dhu’l-Qarneyn so to say that it appeared to him is irrelevant.

The Hadiths are supposed to provide an interpretation of the Quran and in this case where the Hadith interprets the Quran as it says, you throw the Hadith under the bus and claim it is corrupted, mangled and all other perversions. Why would someone corrupt the Hadith to teach that the sun sets a pool of murky water? Unless that is what Quran taught until a knowledge of science overwhelmed it and it was reinterpreted

Contemporaries Al-Tabari and al-Baydawi understood it literally.



So while I am aware of the modern day defenses of the Quran and the Hadiths accessible by Google, but the historic interpretation is still there and still unscientific.

[Habit7]

Mery Christmas

Fulfilled Prophecies at the Birth of Christ

by Tim Chaffey on December 24, 2012

The events associated with the birth of Jesus fulfilled numerous Old Testament prophecies given centuries before the events they described.

Another Reason to Rejoice this Season

Then the shepherds returned, glorifying God and praising God for all the things that they had heard and seen, as it was told them. (Luke 2:20)

Millions of Christians around the world choose to celebrate the birth of Jesus during this time of year—some on December 24 or 25 and others around January 7—while some choose not to celebrate at all. Whenever a Christian decides to celebrate, or if he elects not to celebrate His birth, we can all rejoice in the fact that, by putting on humanity, the Son of God became one of us to deal with our sin by dying in our place before conquering death when He rose from the dead.

History in Advance
The Gospel of Matthew gives us another reason to be thankful. The events associated with the birth of Jesus fulfilled numerous Old Testament prophecies given centuries before the events they described. Matthew 1:22 introduces a common statement in his work. He wrote, “So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet.”1 Since he used this phrasing in at least a dozen passages, Matthew knew it was important to point out to his readers that many of the events he described fulfilled specific prophecies. Let’s take a look at some of these ancient proclamations before explaining why these give us a cause to celebrate.

The first use of the fulfillment phrase mentioned above introduces one of the best-known prophecies in the Bible.

Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.” (Matthew 1:23)

In reference to the birth of Jesus, Matthew cited a specific prophecy from Isaiah made more than 700 years earlier.

Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel. (Isaiah 7:14)

Just as foretold, the virgin (Mary) indeed did conceive (Matthew 1:21) and bore a Son who is called Immanuel. This amazing event demonstrates God’s infinite knowledge and power. He is capable for foretelling the future with perfect precision, and He has the power to bring His prophecies to pass, even if that means a virgin would need to conceive and bear a Son.2

After Christ’s birth the magi arrived in Jerusalem. Herod gathered the chief priests and scribes and asked them where the Messiah was going to be born (Matthew 2:3). They responded by citing an Old Testament prophecy pinpointing Bethlehem as the birthplace of the Christ:

“But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah,
Are not the least among the rulers of Judah;
For out of you shall come a Ruler
Who will shepherd My people Israel.” (Matthew 2:6; cf. Micah 5:2; John 7:42)

Herod’s murderous response of slaughtering the young boys of Bethlehem led to the fulfillment of three more prophecies. First, this tragic massacre fulfilled the words of Jeremiah.

“A voice was heard in Ramah,
Lamentation, weeping, and great mourning,
Rachel weeping for her children,
Refusing to be comforted,
Because they are no more.” (Matthew 2:18; cf. Jeremiah 31:15)

The original context of this prophecy had to do with mothers in Israel lamenting the deportation of their sons to Babylon. These mothers were personified as “‘Rachel,’ the mother in the days of the patriarchs whose sons Joseph and Benjamin had also been threatened with being ‘no more’ (i.e., carried away into Egypt; cf. Gen. 42:36).”3 Ramah was a town close to Jerusalem and associated with Rachel’s tomb (1 Samuel 10:2–3).

The second fulfilled prophecy resulting from Herod’s paranoiac rage took place after Joseph took Mary and Jesus to Egypt. Upon their return, God’s words to Hosea were fulfilled.

“Out of Egypt I called My Son.” (Matthew 2:15; cf. Hosea 11:1"})

This prophecy was originally made as a statement of history—God had called (and brought) Israel out of Egypt. Guided by the Holy Spirit, Matthew used these words to refer to the Messiah.

The final prophecy discussed by Matthew pertaining to events in the early years of Jesus has to do with his boyhood home. God warned Joseph in a dream not to go back to Judea, so instead he took Mary and Jesus to Nazareth in Galilee, “that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, ‘He shall be called a Nazarene’” (Matthew 2:23). This statement has confused Christians because the Old Testament does not seem to make this specific prediction. Skeptics have jumped on this verse, claiming that it is a contradiction in Scripture. However, there are a few plausible solutions to this dilemma.

Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the Old Testament Law and was like a Nazirite who vowed to separate himself to the Lord (Numbers 6:1–8). However this is an unlikely explanation since no record exists of Jesus making this vow, and if He did make one, He would have broken it when He drank wine or vinegar (Matthew 26:27–29; John 19:29). Also, even though the words Nazirite and Nazareth look and sound similar in English, they are unrelated in Hebrew.
Nazareth comes from the root word netzer, which means branch, and multiple prophets spoke of the Messiah as the “Branch” (cf. Isaiah 11:1; Jeremiah 23:5; 33:15; Zechariah 3:8; 6:12).
Nazareth was looked upon with scorn. Even Nathanael asked, “Can anything good come out of Nazareth?” (John 1:46). Several prophets revealed that the Messiah would be “despised and rejected of men” (Isaiah 53:3, cf. Psalm 22:6; Daniel 9:26; Zechariah 12:10).
Matthew may have recorded an oral tradition handed down from the prophets that was not written in the Old Testament, or perhaps it was a prophecy recorded in a non-extant, non-canonical work familiar to Matthew.4
Also, notice that Matthew indicated that the “prophets” (plural) had spoken about this rather than simply indicating that one particular prophet mentioned these things. Whatever the proper solution is to this dilemma, it is clear that Matthew did not introduce a contradiction in the text.

The Unique Savior
While thinking about the circumstances surrounding Christ’s birth, Christians can rejoice that the Messiah has come to earth and dealt with our sin. We can praise God for fulfilling His promises. and we can have complete confidence that He will always be faithful to do what He has declared.

Despite what many believe today, the religions and religious leaders of the world are not the same. Many people in our culture promote the ridiculous claim that Jesus was just another religious leader—a good person who tried to make life better for others—but Jesus is unique in so many respects. He alone was a “good person” since He lived a sinless life. Every other religious leader has been sinful and needed a Savior. But Jesus did not need a savior; He is the Savior.

There are no prophecies foretelling details about the birth of other religious leaders. No prophecies alerted the world to the coming of Muhammad (Islam), Joseph Smith (Mormonism), David Koresh (Branch Davidians), Charles Taze Russell (Jehovah’s Witnesses), Siddhartha Gautama (Buddhism), or any other founder of the world’s religions. Yet the Old Testament pinpointed numerous details about the life of the Son of God and Savior of the world.

So what do these prophecies tell us about Jesus? In just the first two chapters of Matthew, we see that God foretold the virginal conception of the Messiah, who would be born in Bethlehem, yet in some way would come out of Egypt and be called a Nazarene. We also see that bitter agony would grip the mothers in that area.

In the genealogy recorded in Matthew’s first chapter, we discover the fulfillment of several other Old Testament prophecies. Jesus was from the line of Abraham (Genesis 12:3), Isaac (Genesis 26:4), Jacob (Genesis 28:14), Judah (Genesis 49:8–12), Jesse (Isaiah 11:1), and David (Isaiah 9:7). But that’s not all. A search through the rest of Scripture would reveal dozens of other details prophesied about the Messiah, including the following facts:

He would enter Jerusalem on a donkey’s colt (Matthew 21:4–10; Zechariah 9:9).
He would be betrayed by a friend (John 13:18; Psalm 41:9).
The betrayal would be for 30 pieces of silver (Matthew 26:14–16; Zechariah 11:12).
The money would be used to purchase the potter’s field (Matthew 27:3–10; Zechariah 11:13).
The Messiah would die a sacrificial death for us (Matthew 27:50; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Daniel 9:26; Isaiah 53:8).
He would die with criminals but His burial would be with the wealthy (Matthew 27:57–60; Luke 23:33; Isaiah 53:9).
He would rise from the dead (Matthew 28:6; Psalm 16:8–11; Isaiah 53:10).
He would say certain words on the Cross. He would be mocked, and people would gamble for His clothes (Psalm 22:1, 8, 18).

Many other prophecies could be listed that were perfectly fulfilled in the life of Jesus Christ. These were not lucky guesses made by fraudulent prognosticators; they were precise predictions made by the all-knowing God of the Bible who repeatedly demonstrated that He has perfect knowledge of all past, present, and future events. Consequently, we can be completely confident that He will always make good on His promises and that those future events He has foretold will certainly come to pass.

Conclusion
About 2,000 years ago, Jesus came to earth in a humble manner. The Savior of the world and God of all creation put on humanity to die for our sins and conquer death, giving the hope of salvation to all who turn from their sin and believe on Him. One day, He will return in judgment, and He will not appear as a seemingly helpless baby, but as the risen, glorified, sovereign Lord and Judge.

What will it be like for you when He returns? Will you be safe and secure because you have been saved by His amazing grace? Or will you tremble in fear before the holy and righteous God as you are condemned for rejecting His gracious offer of salvation (Revelation 20:11–15, cf. Philippians 2:9–11)?

If you are currently an unbeliever, I urge you to turn from your sin and cry out to Jesus to save you from the eternal torment we all deserve for our rebellion against the infinitely holy Creator. I pray that you find the same joy shared by the shepherds who visited Jesus on the night He was born.

https://answersingenesis.org/jesus-chri ... of-christ/

[York]

I feed saddened and sorry for you Habit. Your Lord has revealed a book, sent to you His Prophet and yet you deny and reject.

The hadith are narrations of the words, actions, commands, prohibitions, etc of the prophet. So from the Qur'an he would have recited "the sun sets in a murky lake", someone hears that and relates it. Guess what, it's not absolute. There are many other narrations with different chains of narrators of authentic quality.

Anyway, on the day of Judgment you will have to answer for your rejection, denial and worship of a man!

[Habit7]

I feed saddened and sorry for you Habit. Your Lord has revealed a book, sent to you His Prophet and yet you deny and reject.

Revelation 22:18-19 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.

The Book of Mormon also claims Moroni was the last prophet, why do you reject the Book of Mormon?

[bluesclues]

arabic symbolis and use of symbolism is... unique... to say the least. honeslty speaking, when compared to the standard model, comes off as quite amateurish. the intent can be gleaned, but thats it, gleaned. think of it like a tractor farmer who know everything about dirt from an experiential pov rather than a geologist point of view.

[York]

Islam makes claims that go against very basic scientific principles. It claims that the human body is formed in this order, skeleton then muscles then skin. This is not a factual claim.
But if the Quran is the word of God and that God would be expected to be right, God supposedly made, us how can he be wrong about how we are formed.
The answer is simple , these religious books are not the word of God, and even more likely ,God does not and has never existed.these are just stories made up by primitive desert dwellers who knew very little about the world they live in. There is even a horse with wings in that book, how can any adult take these stories seriously.

Quote your evidence where Islam says that about human development, then I may be tempted to respond. Otherwise you talking crock.

[York]

Muhammad was the LAST prophet. You do know the meaning of last Habit?

The book of revelation was written by the same unknown author as John. Which is the "this book" referred to in your quote? Certainly not the Qur'an, neither the Bible because it did not exist as a book when Revelation was forged.

Blues, your opinion means nothing. What are you qualifications / credentials?

[megadoc1]

York it is you who is having a problem with the word LAST,in the book of Mormon, the claim is made that Moroni is the last prophet and this comes years after Mohamed claimed to be the last
so the question is why are you still saying Mohamed was the last when another came after him?

[BoxEater]

If there is a religion discussion on this forum , can we have a race discussion as well????

Since this forum doesnt promote prejudice then the race forum shouldnt promote racialism right??

Just need the ok before i start a race thread

Still waiting for the ok from mods???

And waiting

[crock101]

Religious books mention all kinds of ridiculous things .Hindus have flying,talking monkeys, Muslims have flying horses and Christians have talking snakes and talking donkeys.
And then they have the balls to demand that their beliefs be treated with respect, what a joke

[Habit7]

Muhammad was the LAST prophet. You do know the meaning of last Habit?

The book of revelation was written by the same unknown author as John. Which is the "this book" referred to in your quote? Certainly not the Qur'an, neither the Bible because it did not exist as a book when Revelation was forged.

I am sure Mormons apply the meaning of last to Moroni just as sincerely as Muslims do to Muhammad, that still doesn't answer my question.

What is your source that the author of the Gospel according to John, the Apostle John, is unknown?
Do you know are those who transcribe what Muhammad recited?
If they are "unknown" would you hold the Quran to the same standard?

[York]

York it is you who is having a problem with the word LAST,in the book of Mormon, the claim is made that Moroni is the last prophet and this comes years after Mohamed claimed to be the last
so the question is why are you still saying Mohamed was the last when another came after him?

because when the last comes, there will be no other after him.

[York]

Religious books mention all kinds of ridiculous things .Hindus have flying,talking monkeys, Muslims have flying horses and Christians have talking snakes and talking donkeys.
And then they have the balls to demand that their beliefs be treated with respect, what a joke

In a different time, you would get lynched for your disbelief. So how about a lil appreciation and respect for that?

Why do you care about monkeys, horses, snakes and donkeys? They don't throw it in your face or force you to read their books. So the solution to your problem is to stop visiting this thread.

Before you go, do you believe in a purpose in life and who or how or what created the Universe? Is our purpose, just to live like animals and then die and rot in the Earth and that's it? You don't believe in something more? And why we must be good and respectful instead of bad and disrespectful?

Who makes the rules and how do we decide good is good and bad is bad? I mean, it's possible that good could be bad and vice versa.

[megadoc1]

York it is you who is having a problem with the word LAST,in the book of Mormon, the claim is made that Moroni is the last prophet and this comes years after Mohamed claimed to be the last
so the question is why are you still saying Mohamed was the last when another came after him?

because when the last comes, there will be no other after him.

but it happened! so surely Mohamed wasn't the last

[York]

Muhammad was the LAST prophet. You do know the meaning of last Habit?

The book of revelation was written by the same unknown author as John. Which is the "this book" referred to in your quote? Certainly not the Qur'an, neither the Bible because it did not exist as a book when Revelation was forged.

I am sure Mormons apply the meaning of last to Moroni just as sincerely as Muslims do to Muhammad, that still doesn't answer my question.

What is your source that the author of the Gospel according to John, the Apostle John, is unknown?
Do you know are those who transcribe what Muhammad recited?
If they are "unknown" would you hold the Quran to the same standard?

And Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claimed to be the last prophet and reincarnation of Christ.

Elijah Mohammed claimed prophethood and black supremacy.

[York]

York it is you who is having a problem with the word LAST,in the book of Mormon, the claim is made that Moroni is the last prophet and this comes years after Mohamed claimed to be the last
so the question is why are you still saying Mohamed was the last when another came after him?

because when the last comes, there will be no other after him.

but it happened! so surely Mohamed wasn't the last

and surely the Trinity is not biblical.

[megadoc1]

York it is you who is having a problem with the word LAST,in the book of Mormon, the claim is made that Moroni is the last prophet and this comes years after Mohamed claimed to be the last
so the question is why are you still saying Mohamed was the last when another came after him?

because when the last comes, there will be no other after him.

but it happened! so surely Mohamed wasn't the last

and surely the Trinity is not biblical.

you jump right out of one false claim and into another
but not so fast
tell me if someone comes after the last man what is he called?

[crock101]

Yes you are right, in a different time primitive religious people would kill someone like me for not believing in their stories.
This is 2015 and people like that aren't in charge anymore and I can assure you that non-believers won't be murdering our religious brothers and sisters for still believing in these stories.people who believe in Santa Claus, Easter bunny, tooth fairy and hobbits are all free to do so, but they like the religious they must eventually face poorly concealed laughter for openly stating their ridiculous beliefs out loud