High RPM?

[Spyrogyra]

its all about torque vs horsepower, pistons speed and gearing

What does gearing have to do with engine dynamics?

The perfect ratio is 1.75. If the ratio is off, it means that the rod is not using 100% of it’s momentum to compress the air and gas mixture. It’s using more energy to push against the sides of the cylinder walls than to compress the fuel mixture. This is normally not too bad because things are very well lubricated in your engine. But when you change certain aspects of the engine, in particular increasing the ECU fuel cutoff point or going forced induction, the imperfect R/S ratio will cause more stress on the engine block and could eventually destroy it. A good R/S ratio also ensures long engine life.

So you say LS blocks that dont have a good RS dont last long?
all rightey then

the b16 have near perfect RS and the gearing to go with it. torque to pull the car, but lots more power to speed things along

b16 has torque? WHERE? b16 and d16 almost have the same amount of TQ.

b20 RS is about 1.52, can't handle high RPM, because of it RS but it has alots of torque.

It cant handle the high rpms becuz the ROD BOLTS stretch out, Cracking the Cylinder/Sleeve.
Yes they have a 1piece sleeve, yes its weak, but thats not the FAULT.
ITS the Rod bolts are the weak point.

cams just let the motor breathe at higher RPMs
Higher CR adds torque.

Is this why a CRVTEC with low compression arrounnd 9:1, has LOADS more TORQUE than a ls/vtec b18 with like 11:1 CR?
Keep misleading please.

i could build a HIGH revving STOCK b20 block with b16a vtec head, rev the sheit out of it,
it WILL break at 9000rpm soon enuff! even tuned unbuilt it will break soon.
why? it has vtec dosent it? but why does it break?

because its a LARGE 84mm bore, THIN 1 piece sleeve, and a long rod to stroke ratio 89mm. vs the ideal bullerproof b16 77.4 stroke.

but if u sleeve it, and get a b16 crank in there...
hmmmmmmmmmm

Whats the point of having a Crvtec with a b16 Crank? Explain this ingenious idea to us and the world, because putting a 77.4 Crank will just Destroke the 2.0L back to a 1.6?



*Stay tuned to the next episode*

this guy is the new X2

[havokkk]

cams just let the motor breathe at higher RPMs
Higher CR adds torque.

Is this why a CRVTEC with low compression arrounnd 9:1, has LOADS more TORQUE than a ls/vtec b18 with like 11:1 CR?
Keep misleading please.

kes_vtec's statement’s not inaccurate, just incomplete… perhaps he didn’t think he’d to elaborate more but adding compression increases torque output when stroke length and bore are unchanged/same... kes_vtec just made a general statement

[kes_vtec]

thank youhavokkk,
now stephanweaver,

Quote:
The perfect ratio is 1.75. If the ratio is off, it means that the rod is not using 100% of it’s momentum to compress the air and gas mixture. It’s using more energy to push against the sides of the cylinder walls than to compress the fuel mixture. This is normally not too bad because things are very well lubricated in your engine. But when you change certain aspects of the engine, in particular increasing the ECU fuel cutoff point or going forced induction, the imperfect R/S ratio will cause more stress on the engine block and could eventually destroy it. A good R/S ratio also ensures long engine life.

So you say LS blocks that dont have a good RS dont last long?
all rightey then

and you forget the talk is on high RPM
honda know that the motor will not rev high, so they give the motor abit more torque

Whats the point of having a Crvtec with a b16 Crank? Explain this ingenious idea to us and the world, because putting a 77.4 Crank will just Destroke the 2.0L back to a 1.6?

i did not mean to do that...
read between the lines...

Quote:
the b16 have near perfect RS and the gearing to go with it. torque to pull the car, but lots more power to speed things along


b16 has torque? WHERE? b16 and d16 almost have the same amount of TQ.

if that is so, y does the b16 have more HP?
better flow of air in the head, better communication between the intake and exhaust valves, better cams?
if so, then note these do more for higher rpm HP than torque.

*bring more*

[kes_vtec]

its all about torque vs horsepower, pistons speed and gearing

What does gearing have to do with engine dynamics?

i forget this,
gearing does have alot to play with the whole thing...

[X2]

some points...

a b16 crank in a b20 will not work... the difference in deck height is phenomenal. Doing that will result in an engine that has a ridiculously low CR ratio... if it even can start is another story.

A b16 has a 1.75~ r/s ratio... it is a high hp setup, not a torquey setup.

all involved in this post need to go read a couple physics book oui... this googlology is not teaching ya'll anything worthwhile...

this guy is the new X2

There's a million of em just like....
who act, type and post like me....
and just might be the next best thing....
But not quite me !

[Spyrogyra]

doh mind it in black and white, but reading this will surely lower your internet bill

[ingalook]

I must use my dsl to the fullest!

[pornstar4777]

good reading!

[kes_vtec]

X2 u not see that line....

ok let me help...

b18 sleeved and then bored out....

Spyrogyra, very good book...
i love the last two builds...

[ingalook]

Direct quote from Tatsuru Ichishima CEO of Spoon - taken from "BMI Vol 1. Type R Legend"

"To incraese the power of a natural aspirated engine, you need to raise the revolution and at the same time decrease the friction loss at lower RPM. This balance is the most basic and important factor in tuning a natural aspirated engine

Raising the revolution speed seems easy but, thats not always true, until 6000 Rotations per minute - the power working downward is about 1.5 to 2 tonnes, which is higher than the explosion rate in the combustion chamber, however, when the revolution go beyond about 6000 RPMs - the upward power that pulls up the piston becomes larger than the downward power... thus increasing the rotation speed becomes very difficult.

When the revolutions get higher, the block twists, the stress on the crank changes, and so on, and it gets harder to fairly maintain the clearance of the unit"

[X2]

Let me translate that from Japanglish:

Motors with Low rod stroke ratios have high friction losses due to cylinder wall side-loading. A trade off gotten from increasing stroke in a long rod setup, which results in increased low end power, but the downside is at high rpm, the piston out-runs the flame front. (The piston moves faster on the power stroke than the combustion's ''fire''). The end result is UNCONTROLLED expansion rates during combustion... which tears apart an engine... which is WHY I get a good laugh at the peeps that want to push stock engines well past stock redlines and swear they making power.

To get more power up top, you need to increase rod stroke ratio, resulting in slower piston speeds, which basically kills low end power, shifting it up top, where the head, port and manifold designs promote high end breathing... which, when coupled with a high lift/duration cam (ahem....vtec) will allow the setup to make (pre-CRX) unheard of power with small displacement engines.

When the revolutions get higher, the block twists, the stress on the crank changes, and so on, and it gets harder to fairly maintain the clearance of the unit

This is exactly why the B series vtec blocks incorporate crank girdles that bolt directly to the main caps.... even at STOCK redlines, without a crank girdle, crank walk becomes an issue with the inline 4's. For those that are actually paying attention to real world physics and not internet follies, you'd prolly jump on the fact that engines like the B20 and B18a/b do not employ crank girdles... since they are not meant to pass 7200 rpm.



But hey... what the hell... honda engineers are stupid.

9:1 JE Piston, Eagle rod....FTW !

[kes_vtec]

i love this guy....

the things ppl need to do tuh get you tuh talk.....



now i know ur not going tuh stop there....

and in the event the b18 i thinking about was the b18c5
i alway wanted tuh see if someone bored it out just a littleand added some revs, wah will happen...

[ingalook]

I had to listen to that translation on that dvd and type everything the man say... that is what it took

[X2]

bleh.... i just don't feel like typing anything in depth...

The short of it is that most OEM manufacturers design engines to be a compromise between longevity and power. But they also design with materials that have a budget in mind (leave the exotic sports cars out of this)... some over-engineer the materials to a degree (SR20det, Supra engines, SRT-4...all turbo engines) but for the most part, the parts used kinda have a cost factor. Honda has squeezed out hella performance out of the mass produced B and D engines and the b18c5 is just well planned, polished up version a production engine.

With that said...

As you get higher in rpm, the pressure increase on the block is more
exponential than linear. This is a fact for any inline 4 engine.

We talking stock block....increasing bore on the whole will increase piston side loading as you're changing the geometry of the engine to some degree. It will start to cause faster wear and the bigger you bore, the more pressure you're applying. You will get faster ring wear and can even see uneven wear on the cylinder wall.

So doing both the bore and rpm increase will likely increase wear on all the friction touched parts. A b16 would fare MUCH better than a c5, but if you talking C5... you gotta consider all those factors. Now just like anything.... if you have the money... go thru hard.... that shiFt will make power and run HARD...just don't expect that your setup is gunna last near what a stock engine would.

[X2]

btw.... feel ah should mention that increasing the bore will also slow the flame speed a bit. It's a downside to going more square...

[stephanweaver]

sr, what rpm u is stop making power @?

[X2]

Dyno sheets !

[kes_vtec]

lol.....

[Spyrogyra]

And if you niggas would read some more you'd be able to type sense like Yoda there...

Spend the money, buy some books, get some dirt on your fingers, bust a few knuckles and leave the google tuning to ricers and wannabes

[Clerique]

I will give you guys a B18C Spec R dyno sheet soon (after I fix my exhaust) since my car kinda "StocK" still.

If allyuh want it faster, contribute to the "Cleriq's Dyno Fund"

[stephanweaver]

spyrogyra, how u know i dont get my hands dirty?

sounds to me like your more of a google tuner posting saying, read this book and get 10x more experience than anyone.

i have hands down experience on working on honda heads, not blocks AS YET.
i dont think reading a book is going to help me rebuild an engine block, tune it, and break it in the 1st try BY MYSELF and not have something break.

anyways i dont have nothing to prove to 'HOTT' ricers yes.

i asked HOTT for help on ECU tuning and not one person can say.... well i will help you out.

just ricers here as far as i can see.

i dont care what tuner or who ever else has to say or think

. when i now join tuner i didnt know sheit and everyone used to just sheit on me, look now i have much faster stock b16 than most tuners with the same engine, peoberly MORE HANDS DOWN Experience, and they will still sheit on me, and some of them dont even know how to HOLD a 10 spanner or much less know how to pick out one from a bunch of tools without looking at the wording on the tool.

[Spyrogyra]

sounds like you take yourself a little too seriously

[stephanweaver]

no i just dont have time for stupid comments and, read this book, you will be alot smarter in honda..

and i do take my honda serious... just as i do life.

[Spyrogyra]

[ingalook]

Ease up man weaver

[Spyrogyra]

yeah dude, take a chill pill Jill

[kes_vtec]

i just talk from my heart.....

[X2]

And if you niggas would read some more you'd be able to type sense like Yoda there...

Spend the money, buy some books, get some dirt on your fingers, bust a few knuckles and leave the google tuning to ricers and wannabes

You gotta do it and get your hands dirty... the majority of reading I ever did when getting into this way back when... was reading the actual honda manuals and DOING, not talking and dreaming about it. I learned how to replace a clutch and pressure plate well before I learned how to do an oil change. (yes... I want a cookie)

Steph, props to you for understanding as much as you do as quickly as you did... I remember when we first met and you've come far... but as for doing a 1st time engine build... I wouldn't recommend you do it on a daily driver... building a reliable engine is not as simple as knowing what parts go where and what torque spec to use, experience breeds experience... and learning the ''hard way'' is for people who can afford to buy parts ontop of parts if they make mistakes.

You wouldn't go defend yourself in court after reading some law books and paying a traffic ticket, would ya ?

[stephanweaver]

hahahaha\guess thats why i wont play with a block and build it without help

but thanks

it have a FEW REAL tuners here on tuner....
you know who you are, i wont single you out cuz its not my place
i can only speak for myself.

i myself dont know it all, and am here to learn just as you are.
i am subject to be corrected as well. i just find people is like to name call and other small minded things when trying to prove a point.

i dont care if im right or wrong,
i care to learn.

[kes_vtec]

ok ok... stop with the love....
wah we goin tuh fight over next....

there is stuff tuh learn...