Valve seals

[Clerique]

For the experienced tuners
I am 90% sure that my valve seals are bad (though I have not done a leak down test yet).
So my question is:
a)Should I just replace the valve seals?
Or
b)Pull the head, replace the valve seals, reseat the valves, replace all seals in the head and valve cover.

Option a) is cheaper and faster and should restore normal oil consumption.

Option b) will is more expensive and will require a new Head Gasket and head bolts (I prefer not to reuse the head bolts as they tend to stretch over time).

The engine is @ 91,000 kms.

For those that dont know, the engine is one of them 1.8 vtak thingies

P.S. Do not just say option b) without a reason ;I do not have a money tree.

[X2]

Yuh must be a borse !

In option A....how u planning to pull the seals w/o un-bolting the head ?

[stephanweaver]

i was now going to ask that x2...

[Spyrogyra]

doh hate the man becasue he could move in the 5th dimension !!!!

looks like someone needs a hug


Cleriq, get a copy of the honda service manual and go thru the procedure to change the valve seals.

If you don't have one let me know and I'd burn a copy of the PDF for you.

I would suggest you replace the head bolts with some ARP studs, to keep that pesky head on da lockdown, yes the old bolts may have stretched but the only way to know is to measure it against the toleances in the manual. Also while your mech has the head scrapped let them send it to a machine shop and measure everything (especially the valve guide bore, they just wiggle the valves and measure it to see if the guides are worn). Finally they should re-surface the head, do a compression test, clean it in a parts washer and VOILA !!! head so clean you could shave looking at it..

Who do you have in mind to do the job?

[X2]

That's his option B u listed there Spyro.

In short Q, if you want to change the seals, you will need to pull the head, so might as well check the guide to seat clearance one time.... but at 91k it shouldn't NEED it. Buh you's a man that like to see redline... so go with plenty $$...

[Spyrogyra]

That's his option B u listed there Spyro.

well yes and no

yes becasue that's what's supposed to be done and done in conjunction with the info in the manual

no becasue most people or mechs think that using back things like head gasket and bolts are a good idea, some would even use RTV silicone of you let them

[Spyrogyra]

Cleriq, Stop playing WoW and read a honda manual !!!!

[X2]

That's his option B u listed there Spyro.

well yes and no

yes becasue that's what's supposed to be done and done in conjunction with the info in the manual

no becasue most people or mechs think that using back things like head gasket and bolts are a good idea, some would even use RTV silicone of you let them

the man said he would replace the gasket... plus, on stock compression, you can reuse headbolts at least once before you notice stretching, you just have to alter the torque specification up a ft/lb or so. Only problem is it's hard to tell if the engine has ever been cracked before.

And you can't use RTV to ghetto-rig a headgasket, you would need to use copperspray... works like a charm...


EITHER WAY... you need a micrometer to check any of the specs needed... and a valve spring clamp... so he cya do it at home.... mech in he a$$

[stephanweaver]

i would advise against reusing a hg

[X2]

While that is the convention (especially on a high mileage car), you can only determine that by actually looking at the HG.... remember, honda gaskets are 3 layer metal.

[Clerique]

So guys, tell me why I cannot change the valve seals without taking off the head.

BTW there are things a helms will never teach you.

And yeah, I'm ghetto!

[X2]

why can't you change it ?

I know there's always more than one way to do something... but if you break a lock or damage a seal... or god forbid, an exotic hollow valve... will you be singing the praises of ghetto engineering ?

I already said about the relationship between the seals and the guides... might as well do it right the first time, and forget about the wad ur gunna blow.... in other words playa... u have the Holy Grail of B series engines there and you want to come at it with a old socket, screwdrivers and a BFH ? Tek dis....

[Clerique]

^Hey Yoda, a lot of hard core mechs never read a helms; improvision is second nature to most of them. Before all the fancy tools like valve adjustment tools and valve spring compressors, those mechs used to get the job done.

Till now, I never explained my method of getting the seals off, how you know my method ghetto?

So wait a sec, if I changing valve springs and retainers, do I need to pull my head too? As far as I remember the spring seat, valve seal valve spring, retainer and valve keeper are not in the combustion chamber and are assembled in that order inside the head.

[stephanweaver]

yes to change springs ect u will need to pull the head

just use a plyers to take off the old seals

[X2]

^Hey Yoda, a lot of hard core mechs never read a helms

Yeah... and none of them can work in a factory authorized dealership either.

; improvision is second nature to most of them.

Is grandpa's B12 yuh sending in to fix ?

Ever think maybe that is exactly why all dem ''fass cyar'' you hear about have turbo and nitrous and still running 13's and 14's ?

Before all the fancy tools like valve adjustment tools and valve spring compressors, those mechs used to get the job done.

To my knowledge... we do not live in communist china.... mechanics have had access to basic tools like spring compressors since they have been available (basically long before either of us were born)...yes... even us lowly Trinis.

Till now, I never explained my method of getting the seals off, how you know my method ghetto?

Why are you playing this game meng ?

Ok... here... read....I'll be nice...

How do I know ?

Because I have actually done it... myself... not just watch as someone does it.

I know what is necessary... I know what can be damaged (yes, I've damaged parts myself in the past)

Please don't fall into the stupid 2nr trap...I am not, by any means saying it can't be done without the tools... but you are not dealing with a 40 year old tractor engine, you are dealing with a modern piece of engineering with tolerances NO WHERE AS BIG as most of the engines these ''make do" mechanics learned to work on (all respect to their experience / skill).

If you are going to take a damn gem of an engine like a b18c and stick blunt objects and make-do tools into the head to save a couple bucks... why not save even more and do the job at home ?

WHile ur at it, toss some used oil into the crankcase and some Super in the tank and eet go lash !!

So wait a sec, if I changing valve springs and retainers, do I need to pull my head too? As far as I remember the spring seat, valve seal valve spring, retainer and valve keeper are not in the combustion chamber and are assembled in that order inside the head.

These are two different situations here sally !

You have suspect leaky valve seals... which, logically at a mere 91,000K, would indicate you may also have worn valve guides... opening you up to shifting valves at high rpm.

Can you successfully change out springs and retainers... probably....if you are sure the guides are perfect... do what ya like ! What I am suggesting you do is not my way bro... it's the right way.

Basically it boils down to this... you are either serious about doing this right, or you're not.

[De Dragon]

X2's argument makes sense. Do not try to DIY if you haven't got the right tools or skill. Also don't take chain up from men who believe that to own a vehicle you have to be some super mechanic or something. After all is said and done their engine is not at stake. No harm in taking it to a good mech.

[stephanweaver]

pulling a head is as simple as chaiging brakes.

[HondaB20B]

pulling a head is as simple as chaiging brakes.

EH-HEH???

[stephanweaver]

so what so hard about pulling a head b20?

the most difficult part is removing the intake manifold.

[HondaB20B]

so what so hard about pulling a head b20?

nothing??????? no comment.

[stephanweaver]

well if it hard for you..... daz you.

its straight forward to me.

[HondaB20B]

no it aint hard for me

[stephanweaver]

u had me wondering for a minute lol....

[Clerique]

Whey sah, ya'll real assuming or I am being very ambiguous.
I never said what tools I would and would not use, I was making a reference (I can get any tool necessary).
And nothing is wrong with DIY, I thrive on it! No one touches my car unless under my supervision, even the men who washing it.

Unusual oil consumption comes from various situations, two of them I know are rings and valve seals.
I wont talk about how rings go bad, but valve seals don't 'go bad' jus so.
The valves seals are made of rubber and rubber parts need lubrication. The car has been parked without use for probably over two years. Two years with out lubrication WILL cause rubber parts to harden and deteriotate. Why should I assume that my valve guides are bad also and go pull off my head unnecessarily?

The valve seals CAN be changed (with the right tools) without pulling the head off. If ya'll don't know how, then go find out!

I have no problem pulling the head and changing everything that could be changed. But when it is not NECESSARY I choose not to, knowing that I'll have to do an overhaul soon.

[W2J]

You do not need to remove a head (depending on which engine) to change valve seals. All you need is a spring compressor tool and a compressor and the know how.

[stephanweaver]

what happens if u drop a valve?

[X2]

You do not need to remove a head (depending on which engine) to change valve seals. All you need is a spring compressor tool and a compressor and the know how.

Those pig foot tools easy to use on some cars (particularly US made cars)... but kinda hard to use on the B heads.

Whey sah, ya'll real assuming or I am being very ambiguous.
I never said what tools I would and would not use, I was making a reference (I can get any tool necessary).

dais the thing... u not telling us nothing... just asking questions and arguing the answers.

Ok Ok.... Q... check this...

Bring a friend and you don't HAVE to remove the manifold... you already there... You already have to take off the cams and LMA's ANYWAY ! Just a few more stingy bolts away from pulling the head and getting to check your guide and stem clearances... DOOO EEEET..... if you can get the tools as you say... then DIY !!! You've done harder stuff than this... this ent rocket science. The only thing you might not be able to do at ur place is replacing the guides.

what happens if u drop a valve?

You can easily put each cylinder to TDC as you go... so even if u drop it... it won't be going far.

[stephanweaver]

at that age better to decarbonaize 1 time.
pull the head and clean it good.

[Clerique]

You do not need to remove a head (depending on which engine) to change valve seals. All you need is a spring compressor tool and a compressor and the know how.

Like you read the honda manual boy, but wait this method not in the manual.


In any case, one of my other options was; to use a thicker oil untill I do the 100k service and rebuild the head.

Two days ago I flushed the 10w30 and filled up on the 20w50. I'll be running this for the next 6-7000 kms. Since my Pops is adamant about the valve guides, I will not negelect to check them in the rebuild so I would pull the head and do all necessary maintenance work, which I will document for 3NE2NR purposes.

But I must admit, the 20w50 feels slightly sluggish. But that is another topic .

Thanks all for you comments and advice.

BTW Pops, you know that head can't go back in the way it came out?

[stephanweaver]

burning 10w30oil is not normal?

mine burns like a mofo