interesting

[SR]

for how long??

[F1]

How bout the Nishan fellah who drives the Maroon hatch b18c turbo...how reliable is he?

[SR]

yuh really wah me answer that

besides is it daily driven??

[Spyrogyra]

I doh understand why it is allyuh feel honda engines so bulletproof yuh know. Drop anything more than 10lbs on a stock block and relaibility takes a nose dive off a high board into an empty pool. It's like asking a toothpick to hold up an elephant. It will run......yes......but will it last. Some ah allyuh who taking all this boost talk have more money than common sense.

If allyuh want 600 hp oh frig go buy a Viper or something

[VexXx Dogg]

what history has shown with marrying the b-series and boost, is that moderation is the key.

with low boost you may have a little more reliabiltiy.

[F1]

I doh understand why it is allyuh feel honda engines so bulletproof yuh know. Drop anything more than 10lbs on a stock block and relaibility takes a nose dive off a high board into an empty pool.

Exactly..You can run a nice 6-9psi setup for the same price or prob a lil more than buying new cams springs retainers and make more power and still maintain reliability...

[Spyrogyra]

6-9psi

best you attach a leaf-blower

[F1]

Dyno - 2000 Supercharged Civic Si (B16a)



The Dyno run shown here is not the final run. This was with a very heat-soaked engine. Note the very flat torque curve and power all the way to the 8000 rpm. An 8500 rpm limit would probably see a few more HP.

Specifications

* Jackson Racing/Walbro fuel pump. 1:1 Regulator with static fuel pressure of 42psi into 440 c injectors .
* JRSC with 8.5lb stepper pulley on alternator
* Comtech Icebox & Intake (cover off box to dyno)
* DC 4-2-1 Header
* Thermal 2.25 inch exhaust w/ test pipe
* Hondata ECU

Source : http://www.hondata.com/dyno99b16230hpcivic.html

Thats some nice power... How much money do you have to spend to make that power reliably NA on a b16a to see those figures? I am not arguing that FI is better than NA i am just saying its much cheaper and can be just as reliable once done properly...best bang for buck as some would say...

[Spyrogyra]

Don't have time to dig thru but there are loads of allmotor dyno sheets here to sift thru with the build.

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1583606&page=3

JRSC with 8.5lb stepper pulley on alternator

last time I checked this wasn't cheap !

F1, Keep the argument coming, at least you not threatening my bunghole like some people were This is the kinda discussion we like to encourage here, not the personal attacks becasue someone feel they so right it should be gospel.

[SR]

Dyno - 2000 Supercharged Civic Si (B16a)



The Dyno run shown here is not the final run. This was with a very heat-soaked engine. Note the very flat torque curve and power all the way to the 8000 rpm. An 8500 rpm limit would probably see a few more HP.

Specifications

* Jackson Racing/Walbro fuel pump. 1:1 Regulator with static fuel pressure of 42psi into 440 c injectors .
* JRSC with 8.5lb stepper pulley on alternator
* Comtech Icebox & Intake (cover off box to dyno)
* DC 4-2-1 Header
* Thermal 2.25 inch exhaust w/ test pipe
* Hondata ECU
Source : http://www.hondata.com/dyno99b16230hpcivic.html

Thats some nice power... How much money do you have to spend to make that power reliably NA on a b16a to see those figures? I am not arguing that FI is better than NA i am just saying its much cheaper and can be just as reliable once done properly...best bang for buck as some would say...

cost..................last i checked a jackson racing supercharger brand new wasnt cheap


however i am reffering as to the cost compared to the reliability of a turbo especialy if you want to run more than 8lbs of boost

[F1]

cost..................last i checked a jackson racing supercharger brand new wasnt cheap

Well i got 2 used Jackson Racing Superchargers locally, One for $6000 and one for $8000...there are also turbo kit deals that aren't to badly priced...buying good cams, springs and retainers was running up to about the same plus or minus...

however i am reffering as to the cost compared to the reliability of a turbo especialy if you want to run more than 8lbs of boost

well from experience i can say a properly done boosted setup can be reliable from 9psi downwards. Over 9psi i cannot say because i have never ran more than 9psi and i know of no one locally that has a daily driven high boost Honda weekend warrior... But imho when u really delve into NA and start swapping in higher compression pistons, cams etc. reliability becomes an issue, especially with our gas... Correct me if i am wrong...

[Spyrogyra]

especially with our gas... Correct me if i am wrong...

You are 100% correct, the same problem applies to boost....

Banks said the future of turbo lies with diesel engines, go figure!!!

http://bankspower.com/twin-turbo-products.cfm

Daily Drivers don't run on C16.

another limit is that that the top shelf "choice" tuner engines in the Honda lineup max out at 2.0-2.2 l of displacement. there's only so much you can do with that amount of displacement. especially when you consider that to get significant boost (>20 lbs) you talking crankshaft, rods, pistons, pins, headbolts, blockguards, rings, seals, timing chain (K), block brace, and STILL a Stock Evo with a smaller tuning budget could have you looking at his tail lights in the distance.

Honda was NEVER about BLISTERING speed, despite what many seem to perpetuate. It was always about BALANCE....that is the beauty of the Type-R. Quick and Nimble, ask anyone who's spent enough time in Solodex and see for yourself. It's why Spoon build endurance cars that have no turbos but STILL DOMINATE THEIR CLASS!!!!. It's why you have to pay $25000 for a K20A on the pallete but get a SR20DET for 1/5th that price on the road.....

Any dummy can put a turbo on a car, it's brute force, an NA engine with the same, if not better, specific output as a turbocharged one!!?? that something to respect..

[stephanweaver]

all this reliability talk bout na, i know someone close in this room has spun bearings on his na engine, also i know many who have hit valves on pistons NA.


the minute you modify you put more stress on the engine.

na or boost

[Spyrogyra]

The engine can compensate for any nonsense you might do thanks to the ECU, but up to a point.

Engines break becasue physical laws were violated. If you did something to result in that you need to do some homework before you ever pick up a torque wrench again...

[stephanweaver]

i seen a spoon s2000 on my bmi dvd, dude blew his engine. went up in flames, so i guess spoon or the driver can make mistakes tool

[Spyrogyra]

physical limits....

free-rev the best built engine at redline long enough and it will blow up....

[SR]

especially with our gas... Correct me if i am wrong...

You are 100% correct, the same problem applies to boost....

Banks said the future of turbo lies with diesel engines, go figure!!!

http://bankspower.com/twin-turbo-products.cfm

Daily Drivers don't run on C16.

another limit is that that the top shelf "choice" tuner engines in the Honda lineup max out at 2.0-2.2 l of displacement. there's only so much you can do with that amount of displacement. especially when you consider that to get significant boost (>20 lbs) you talking crankshaft, rods, pistons, pins, headbolts, blockguards, rings, seals, timing chain (K), block brace, and STILL a Stock Evo with a smaller tuning budget could have you looking at his tail lights in the distance.

Honda was NEVER about BLISTERING speed, despite what many seem to perpetuate. It was always about BALANCE....that is the beauty of the Type-R. Quick and Nimble, ask anyone who's spent enough time in Solodex and see for yourself. It's why Spoon build endurance cars that have no turbos but STILL DOMINATE THEIR CLASS!!!!. It's why you have to pay $25000 for a K20A on the pallete but get a SR20DET for 1/5th that price on the road.....

Any dummy can put a turbo on a car, it's brute force, an NA engine with the same, if not better, specific output as a turbocharged one!!?? that something to respect..

not dex meh boy

circuit
ask anyone with a well built na honda who has run on the circuit course and you will see where the beauty lies..........not on the straights but the perfect match of just the right rpm with the correct gear ratio going thru the corners


no lag.............
no overheating issues

[W2J]

Daily Drivers don't run on C16.

My car is daily driven and my high boost is over 20psi and I don't run C16 or any kinda of race gas but then again I am not one you lucky Honda owners Thank god for good old free H20 it does the job all the time. I am thinking about doing a Honda project very soon to show the reliability of a daily driven TUNED boosted high rever.

[havokkk]

turbo-charging has often been unfairly blamed for many engine failures, and is, especially with the honda crowd, considered unreliable, or at least less reliable, than an n/a project. but detonation and/or inattention to bottom end power limits, has claimed many n/a builds as well.

whether turbo-charged or naturally aspirated, increasing power output means increasing cylinder pressure. archaic engine management at higher power outputs can easily be the cause of spun bearings/thrown rods/lifted heads/wrecked slugs, regardless of how you make power.

[havokkk]

the choice of whether to pressurize or not, i think, depends on how much you can spend then.

the cost, including time expended, can be prohibitive when building an engine. blueprinting/machining/honing parts, investing in forged pieces, headwork and valvetrain trickery, can blast a hole through your wallet faster than your woman can

turbo-charging can be a bolt-on weekend project. a sensible horsepower target, mindful of your bottom end's limits in factory trim, the best fuel management and electronic boost control you can afford (don't forget a higher capacity fuel pump, if you need it), and some time tuning using exhaust gas temp and wideband o2 numbers... and you can have a very, very streetable combo, that's quick and reliable and cheaper than other options.

[havokkk]

lots of guys have added turbo-chargers to b16as without thinking carefully of the power increase, the amount of fuel req'd, or the bottom-end's limits. if the stock fuel pump (120lph @ 40psi) can't deliver the capacity necessary, or the injectors are at max duty cycle, or fuel delivery was limited to the use of an fpr only, cylinder temps rise and the engine inevitable breaks. the myth that vtec heads or high compression ratios and boost pressure don't mix is therefore propagated.

don't get me wrong though. engine building is brilliant and you learn lots... but an intelligent approach to boost though, ain't bad.

[Zim]

N?A sweet hoss, u getting tie up

NA Sweet but a bit costly to make some good power imho...

See & performance cheap on d whole buddy. U ahve parts like rain in yuh car & u talkin bout cost??? LOL

[Zim]

Dyno - 2000 Supercharged Civic Si (B16a)



The Dyno run shown here is not the final run. This was with a very heat-soaked engine. Note the very flat torque curve and power all the way to the 8000 rpm. An 8500 rpm limit would probably see a few more HP.

Specifications

* Jackson Racing/Walbro fuel pump. 1:1 Regulator with static fuel pressure of 42psi into 440 c injectors .
* JRSC with 8.5lb stepper pulley on alternator
* Comtech Icebox & Intake (cover off box to dyno)
* DC 4-2-1 Header
* Thermal 2.25 inch exhaust w/ test pipe
* Hondata ECU

Source : http://www.hondata.com/dyno99b16230hpcivic.html

Thats some nice power... How much money do you have to spend to make that power reliably NA on a b16a to see those figures? I am not arguing that FI is better than NA i am just saying its much cheaper and can be just as reliable once done properly...best bang for buck as some would say...

nice figs dey, not seeing torque, only rpm, hp & afr...

[Zim]

all this reliability talk bout na, i know someone close in this room has spun bearings on his na engine, also i know many who have hit valves on pistons NA.


the minute you modify you put more stress on the engine.

na or boost

True, as log as u eh do it properly...

[F1]

N?A sweet hoss, u getting tie up

NA Sweet but a bit costly to make some good power imho...

See & performance cheap on d whole buddy. U ahve parts like rain in yuh car & u talkin bout cost??? LOL

I have a simple setup...if i went NA it would have been much more money to get same power output...

[F1]

lots of guys have added turbo-chargers to b16as without thinking carefully of the power increase, the amount of fuel req'd, or the bottom-end's limits. if the stock fuel pump (120lph @ 40psi) can't deliver the capacity necessary, or the injectors are at max duty cycle, or fuel delivery was limited to the use of an fpr only, cylinder temps rise and the engine inevitable breaks. the myth that vtec heads or high compression ratios and boost pressure don't mix is therefore propagated.

don't get me wrong though. engine building is brilliant and you learn lots... but an intelligent approach to boost though, ain't bad.

Well said havokkk...

[stephanweaver]

lots of guys have added turbo-chargers to b16as without thinking carefully of the power increase, the amount of fuel req'd, or the bottom-end's limits. if the stock fuel pump (120lph @ 40psi) can't deliver the capacity necessary, or the injectors are at max duty cycle, or fuel delivery was limited to the use of an fpr only, cylinder temps rise and the engine inevitable breaks. the myth that vtec heads or high compression ratios and boost pressure don't mix is therefore propagated.

don't get me wrong though. engine building is brilliant and you learn lots... but an intelligent approach to boost though, ain't bad.

Well said havokkk...

nice im glad you said it as well

[X2]

Havokkk made some of the best points in the thread, but to add to this one...

. the myth that vtec heads or high compression ratios and boost pressure don't mix is therefore propagated...

^^ The High compression and boost thing is not a myth... the increase in dynamic compression under boost makes the setup VERY touchy to gas quality, timing and particularly high ambient temperatures and altitude.

However, the 'vtec is no good for boost', although not entirely true, has very strong roots in the truth... whilst a vtec head flows very well and loves the boost... it's the stock vtec cams that have an n/a specific overlap that tends to allow charge to go out the exhaust ports on the compression stroke... it's not detrimental in anyway, but the car tends to not make the expected top end power without adjusting the cam timing.

Throw in even a low end aftermarket turbo cam and you will be feel a world of difference in power delivery. Simply put, uptop, a stock vtec cam has too much overlap... it works and the car will make great power thanks to the flow of the head itself... but the cams are the offenders in the setup.... the profiles and ramp angle are just not meant to work with boost.


But all the guys that are dead set against boosting hondas... to my knowledge...none of you have had a turbo honda, not so ?

If you haven't seen a 'reliable' boosted honda down here... don't blame the engines... blame the lack of planning and lack of proper tuning because engines don't blow themselves.

I agree that our fuel is crappola...with a properly chosen turbo, even at a mere 8-9 psi on pump gas, you can coax drool-worthy torque numbers out of all the B and D engines even if it isn't a drag monster.

Hell... if I didn't have an ongoing project to finish... I would go back turbo just for the hell of it. Honda + Turbo.... c'mon....you know you want to !

[stephanweaver]

i think engines are limited to HP and not PSI

[X2]

Well the weakness is not the engine itself, but the stock cast piston... it's capable of dealing with only about a 50-60% power increase... even the stock rods handle more than that. But either way, no compressor that can compliment a B or D series street engine is going to push the kinda power required to start cracking pistons (once tuned right).