The Religion Discussion

[sMASH]

i have had somewhat of an understanding of that same concept of not being perfect, but that understanding has been refined in the last couple of years, and believe it or not, much part to this thread.
lets just say, i have become a lot more mellow.


about the man hugging the new revert to islam, islam does preach parda, i.e. separation of the sexes after puberty, and intimate interaction should be with close relatives. but the guys action may be that of culture, and his lack of restraint may be due to being overjoyed at playing a part in someone reverting to islam. in this case, as should be many, neither party claimed foul for the act, so there is nothing we could judge, so his action would not be for us to quibble about.
in stricter societies, we would be more accustomed to abiding by the stricter laws.


the stone. hmmn, well, as in most societies, the line between revered and worshiped gets blurred often, to the point of exchange sometimes. one must remember, muslims more than any one else, that every thing that we encounter, are creations and are not to be worshiped. the only thing to be worshiped is the ultimate creator.
the actions towards the stone are supposed to be instructions. they are specific to the performance of the pilgrimage. i am not too familiar with those, as i have not dedicated time to learn about them as they are only required for the hajj, of which i have not partaken nor plan to any time soon. so i cannot elaborate further, than to say, no creation is to be worshiped and the actions of some of the overzealous may not reflect the actual instructions.

the part about rituals, well, islam is steeped in rituals, most times associated with some form of prayer. like the eid that is coming up is eid ul adha. this is where animals are sacrificed. prayers are performed ritually, and ritually the animals are killed and the meat shared. the sacrifice is not done for god or to god. it is done as a commandment of god as obedience to what we believe to be his instructions to us. to put it cynically, we do not believe we should do your rituals, we believe we should do our rituals.

the idolatry. literally speaking, it is the worship of some object as a god. there are many revered things in islam, and things have various degrees of reverence. but none is to be worshiped, or at least supposed to be worshiped. the ka'ba is the focal point for worship. it is where we believe was the first place of worship, it the site of the yearly pilgrimage. it has been destroyed and rebuilt and modified over the years. but it is not worshiped. it is just the direction of worship, as we believe we were instructed to do.
as a muslim, if one every bothers to think that in the other side of the world there is some one praying to wards the same direction, with the same belief. there is some one doing nearly the same actions, saying nearly the same words, holding most of the same values. then going to hajj and meeting people from all parts of the world, from all walks of life, at all stratas of societies, of all different ethnicities, and usually speaking the different languages. the common denominator is the religion and the prayers, and the rituals performed there. every one is supposed to be in the same attire striving for the same goals, no matter who u are nor where u come from. it is humbling just to think of it.

some don't grasp the deeper meaning of the actions, and just do them because of the instruction. that is why there tends to be trampling as so many are focused on reaching the end and forget about each other. i see two things in this. one is the doing it just for the act sake, and that we would be judged on if we really understand what we were supposed to be learning and if we practise it. the other is it is an earthly insight into what we believe to the the judgement time in the after life. this is where every ones actions would be judged and that every one would be so concerned for their well fare that they would have no concern at all for any one else, even those closest to us in life.
nowadays christianity preaches about the 'utopia' in heaven that is promised by following them. in medieval times the warned of the hell that would befall u if u did not follow them. islam to me is a balance of both. u have punishment for disobedience and reward for good actions. there is now magic spell or remedy to take to get u to heaven. there is no ward or charm to keep u from hell.
what saves u from hell is god's forgiveness for each action.
we are not perfect and prone to errors, and thus need constant forgiveness, and need to be continuously weary of that and ask for forgiveness. we must try to recognize our sins and errors, and try to improve upon them, or we may risk becoming proud and say that we are already forgiven, that we can guarantee our selves from hell. we may become so bold creatures that we may say that we do not sin, even when we do. this is utter blasphemy as we presume ourselves in command over the the authority of god. only god can forgive, and he alone chooses who and what to forgive. if u do not sin or all of your sins, past and future are already forgiven, then u have no purpose in this world and u are perfect. if u are perfect then u know every thing and have every answer to every question.

do not presume to hold power of the master of the day of judgement, only one has that authority, and would judge all at the appointed time, even those who think they are 'saved' from it.

[sMASH]

/rant *kinda went off on a tangent there*

[MG Man]

good points
I only threw out my ideas after watching all the intolerance that christians and muslims throw at hindus for their way of worship......
coming from a half hindu / half muslim family, its always interesting to observe the ways muslims condemn the hindu way of life without taking the time to understand the reason behind the 'rituals'
yet islam itself, as you have said, is riddled with ritual
I can see no reason for god to want anyone to kiss a stone.........

[d spike]

/rant *kinda went off on a tangent there*

I don't consider that post as "ranting" or off the point. I found it quite good, and applicable to other religions as well.
Good write, sMASH!

hey d spike! today I think I saw you "bonding" with Betsy on mucurapo road

Yes. She's a little peeved because everyone else is down for repairs, and it's her turn to be the 'daily driver'.

I was gonna stop by and say hello

Thank you so much for your restraint.

...I think I saw you with a tire iron in your hand lol

That's just a useful instrument in tightening the odd nut... and making the more odd nuts keep their distance...

anyways, whats that "evill" looking thing on your bonnet?

That is the creature described in my sig. If you wanted to see a really "evil" looking creature, all you had to do was pop that very bonnet...

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

The difference with being an idealist and being religious, is that there is no book of rules for idealists.

[d spike]

The difference with being an idealist and being religious, is that there is no book of rules for idealists.

I beg to differ, Duane. There is no book of rules for the truly religious either. The only folk who view scripture as a book of rules are the fundamentalists - hence their name.

Scripture was never meant to be rules or science.
Guidelines, yes... not rules.

Idealists form their opinion based on their experiences, knowledge, and rational thought, which is then focused on the best that they could be.
The only difference between them and the lads who scribbled scripture was that the inspired authors decided that their opinions should be kept for posterity (hence the scribblings) and the best that they could be would be attained via a better relationship with God.
Perhaps that was being rather idealist...

[dtp]

good points
I only threw out my ideas after watching all the intolerance that christians and muslims throw at hindus for their way of worship......
coming from a half hindu / half muslim family, its always interesting to observe the ways muslims condemn the hindu way of life without taking the time to understand the reason behind the 'rituals'
yet islam itself, as you have said, is riddled with ritual
I can see no reason for god to want anyone to kiss a stone.........

sorry to say but Hindu religion is so easy to manipulate to do evil
i have seen many people play with these demigods and got burned in the end

[dtp]

ok let me shoot this out 4 u to reply


Adam and eve made Kane and Abel.Kane being the older son.
but eve eat of the forbidding fruit .which opened her mine.
so lets say if she did have sex with the snake (Satan) then introduce Adam to the fruit because she was still horny .well u no what happened after god kicked them out and eve was given the last gift of reproduction (yes it was a gift not a curse)
so with all that said .
her first son Kane can b a blood line of Satan.

[MG Man]

good points
I only threw out my ideas after watching all the intolerance that christians and muslims throw at hindus for their way of worship......
coming from a half hindu / half muslim family, its always interesting to observe the ways muslims condemn the hindu way of life without taking the time to understand the reason behind the 'rituals'
yet islam itself, as you have said, is riddled with ritual
I can see no reason for god to want anyone to kiss a stone.........

sorry to say but Hindu religion is so easy to manipulate to do evil
i have seen many people play with these demigods and got burned in the end

care to elaborate?

[sMASH]

dtp, it easy to manipulate monotheistic religions to do evil as well, like u forget 9/11 ooaarr..
or jim jones, or dem witch hunts in america .
what u talking bout is the paranormal aspect of some religions, which use shock and awe to impress upon the witnesses. to me, them hindu ting is just like when u see man shoving down a whole crowd of people infront a stage, or when u see people bleeding from their palms, feet, and sides, or when people claim to see ' spirit' guiding them to safety in an accident.
what also gets me, is when people constantly say they eating a body, and drinking the blood. call me a roman, but i find that cannibalistic

u could say that u believe in one god all you want, but from the time u say jesus is god or son of and talk bout the holy ghost, that sounds just as polytheistic as any other multi-deity religion( plus u guys say u eat human flesh, drink and bathe in its blood, sry, is a lamb)

there are a few rituals which do not have an explained purpose, but just there as an instruction. these don't have much drawback from performing them, just a lil time, effort or restriction. so doing them don't really have much worldly effect.

[d spike]

ok let me shoot this out 4 u to reply


Adam and eve made Kane and Abel.Kane being the older son.
but eve eat of the forbidding fruit .which opened her mine.
so lets say if she did have sex with the snake (Satan) then introduce Adam to the fruit because she was still horny .well u no what happened after god kicked them out and eve was given the last gift of reproduction (yes it was a gift not a curse)
so with all that said .
her first son Kane can b a blood line of Satan.

[d spike]

there are a few rituals which do not have an explained purpose, but just there as an instruction. these don't have much drawback from performing them, just a lil time, effort or restriction. so doing them don't really have much worldly effect.

ALL rituals whatever the religion, have a reason/purpose, based on a facet of the culture out of which the religion originated.
Just because they can't be explained due to cultural erosion/loss on the part of the adherents, doesn't lessen the importance of the ritual... as far as it's effect is concerned, that depends on the belief of the practitioners concerned, not so?

I have met far too many Christians and Hindus who have no flippin' idea why they do what they do... they just do it anyway...
...but I suppose as faith is based on accepting, not understanding, that is not a bad thing.
What one has to do, is to learn more about one's faith as one goes along one's journey, acquiring the understanding, which in turn then deepens the acceptance.

[Chimera]

[dtp]

ok let me shoot this out 4 u to reply


Adam and eve made Kane and Abel.Kane being the older son.
but eve eat of the forbidding fruit .which opened her mine.
so lets say if she did have sex with the snake (Satan) then introduce Adam to the fruit because she was still horny .well u no what happened after god kicked them out and eve was given the last gift of reproduction (yes it was a gift not a curse)
so with all that said .
her first son Kane can b a blood line of Satan.

i shoot at u all because it can b a possibility

Kane was the first killer in d bible who was granted a gift the mark of Kane

[sMASH]

humans and snakes cannot interbreed.

[d spike]

ok let me shoot this out 4 u to reply


Adam and eve made Kane and Abel.Kane being the older son.
but eve eat of the forbidding fruit .which opened her mine.
so lets say if she did have sex with the snake (Satan) then introduce Adam to the fruit because she was still horny .well u no what happened after god kicked them out and eve was given the last gift of reproduction (yes it was a gift not a curse)
so with all that said .
her first son Kane can b a blood line of Satan.

i shoot at u all because it can b a possibility

Kane was the first killer in d bible who was granted a gift the mark of Kane

What possibility?
First of all, the "Eden" story is simply that - a story.
Secondly, Cain (not Kane) did not receive a "gift". The "mark of Cain" was to ensure that he did not suffer more punishment than what God had allotted to him. (God had cursed him by telling him that his farming would never prosper again.) If that is your idea of a "gift", then you must have a hard time on your birthday!

Now what is this crap about Eve having sex with a snake...?
By looking at your written material, I can guess your reading ability is the reason why you came up with such a remarkably errant concept. I would advise you get someone to read that part of Genesis to you... slowly.

And please... remember it was just a story, meant to teach certain ideas. It isn't about the origin of mankind.

[dtp]

ok let me shoot this out 4 u to reply


Adam and eve made Kane and Abel.Kane being the older son.
but eve eat of the forbidding fruit .which opened her mine.
so lets say if she did have sex with the snake (Satan) then introduce Adam to the fruit because she was still horny .well u no what happened after god kicked them out and eve was given the last gift of reproduction (yes it was a gift not a curse)
so with all that said .
her first son Kane can b a blood line of Satan.

i shoot at u all because it can b a possibility

Kane was the first killer in d bible who was granted a gift the mark of Kane

What possibility?
First of all, the "Eden" story is simply that - a story.
Secondly, Cain (not Kane) did not receive a "gift". The "mark of Cain" was to ensure that he did not suffer more punishment than what God had allotted to him. (God had cursed him by telling him that his farming would never prosper again.) If that is your idea of a "gift", then you must have a hard time on your birthday!

Now what is this crap about Eve having sex with a snake...?
By looking at your written material, I can guess your reading ability is the reason why you came up with such a remarkably errant concept. I would advise you get someone to read that part of Genesis to you... slowly.

And please... remember it was just a story, meant to teach certain ideas. It isn't about the origin of mankind.

Satan can change forms into anything

Zeus also changed form to subdue women


i never said my theory was true
i was just asking what if

[Kasey]

^^So ur saying that the Flying Spagetti Moster can come an 'GET' you one of these nights? WHAT IF??????

[Kasey]

Zeus also changed form to subdue women

Three THINGS:
1) What the fluck Zeus have to do with the bible?
2) Find a dictionary an look up "subdue" and let me know y Zeus would want to subdue women
3) This is an intellectual, mostly factual discussion. please keep this crap out.
This is not a "what if" discussion

[d spike]

^^So ur saying that the Flying Spagetti Moster can come an 'GET' you one of these nights? WHAT IF??????

R'amen.

[dtp]

so if i told u Greek Mythology was worshiped b4 the acknowledgement of the divine god in d bible ,

[dtp]

Zeus also changed form to subdue women

Three THINGS:
1) What the fluck Zeus have to do with the bible?
2) Find a dictionary an look up "subdue" and let me know y Zeus would want to subdue women
3) This is an intellectual, mostly factual discussion. please keep this crap out.
This is not a "what if" discussion

i meant seduce sorry i sent lil time on d net nah sorry

[d spike]

so if i told u Greek Mythology was worshiped b4 the acknowledgement of the divine god in d bible ,

...so??? Because it is older means it is right?????
Fire-worship, sun-worship, viewing the natural elements and lights in the sky as deities all predate Greek mythology (please note the use of the word mythology)...
...does that mean those religions are correct? Do you worship fire? Is there a little altar in your house with a box of three plumes on it?

Don't get me wrong... there is nothing wrong with discussing these early religions, as in them can be seen the formulation of concepts that many modern believers take for granted...
...but don't unload a set of horseshit and pretend that it is an attempt at an intellectual discussion.

[sMASH]

what does your writings have? it says that eve was convinced by a serpent to eat of the forbidden fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, who then convinced adam to eat of the fruit. they ate, recognized their nakedness hid and covered them selves. god rough them up cast them out for their sin, made eve more punished by making her child bearing painful, and making her ruled by her husband.

what does our writings have? that they both ate from the forbidden tree after being fooled by shaitan, they both realized their wrongs, they both asked for forgiveness, they both were cast out for disobedience, but both forgiven for being repentant, and that act is not really a sin but more on line with a mistake.


neither mentions anything more intimate than a conversation between adam's wife, (pbuh) and satan in our writings, and eve and the serpent in your writings.

if u have extra writings which u consider, u better keep them away from mega. he would not consider that the word of god cause luther's squads were not lead to put in the normal bible.

[dtp]

so if i told u Greek Mythology was worshiped b4 the acknowledgement of the divine god in d bible ,

...so??? Because it is older means it is right?????
Fire-worship, sun-worship, viewing the natural elements and lights in the sky as deities all predate Greek mythology (please note the use of the word mythology)...
...does that mean those religions are correct? Do you worship fire? Is there a little altar in your house with a box of three plumes on it?

Don't get me wrong... there is nothing wrong with discussing these early religions, as in them can be seen the formulation of concepts that many modern believers take for granted...
...but don't unload a set of horseshit and pretend that it is an attempt at an intellectual discussion.

nah i am not taking 4 Greek mythology or any other inferior religions

i am a die hard roman catholic solider

but some religions do that some events that are similar to accounts recorded in the bible u no

i am not trying to upload any horseshit here i just no alot about different religions

[MG Man]

nah i am not taking 4 Greek mythology or any other inferior religions
i am a die hard roman catholic solider

but some religions do that some events that are similar to accounts recorded in the bible u no

i am not trying to upload any horseshit here i just no alot about different religions

pray tell, friend..........what is an inferior religion???????

[Kasey]

^^^ 'what if'........ u just THINK you know alot about other religions?

[Dizzy28]

nah i am not taking 4 Greek mythology or any other inferior religions
i am a die hard roman catholic solider

but some religions do that some events that are similar to accounts recorded in the bible u no

i am not trying to upload any horseshit here i just no alot about different religions

pray tell, friend..........what is an inferior religion???????

Based on his previous answers you expecting a rational response MG?

[MG Man]

one can hope

[Kasey]

no, one simply cant, in this unfortunate case.