The Religion Discussion

[metalgear2095]

Judge all Muslims? Please get the propaganda of "muslim hate" out of your head I pointed you to two persons in particular, one of whom you say is capable of speaking the truth, if you agree with him and his approach then you fall in that category. I don't see them as the voice of the Islamic community as I know better. Anyone can get "evidence" against any school of thought..........to you it is evidence to others it is definitely not, evidence requires alot more than what you posted for most people. I asked for clarification on a particular error that muslims harp on, I believe Megadoc asked the same. Where can I find the information that has changed in the bible? Especially post change..........what are the actual words?

http://islamtomorrow.com/articles/Bible_vs_Quran.asp

That is a respected website for the comparison of Quran n Bible. I only know what adamb posted from when I started reading the thread. I duno the other poster bc i didnt read this thread from page1..i think i started posting somewhere within the 400+pages..anyway...take a read at the text that was discussed on the site.

Yeah an Islamic website comparing the Quran and Bible. Seems legit.

[Habit7]

Ms. Boutique I know you are trying to drive home the point that there are so many errors in the Bible and you quote from those within your camp but have you ever looked at some of the rebuttals? I have skim through everyone of that website's points and some are just Islamic misunderstandings. The rest are just rehashed arguments given by sceptics which there are even books responding to those apparent errors.

For example, what you highlighted in red on the previous page is not an error but an Islamic misunderstanding. Luke 1:1-4 is a single sentence in the Greek and is considered as a prologue. His reference to Theophilus is more of a dedication and not a specific address to him and him alone. The "many" is a reference to Matthew and Mark whose Gospel accounts precedes Luke. Luke was a close companion of the Apostle Paul even as the second volume of the Gospel of Luke could be said to be the Acts of the Apostle. Through the over sight of Paul, Luke's work is considered inspired as he does what the best historian of that time could ever do and that is compile the eyewitness accounts, even among the apostles (most former Disciples) he fellowshiped with, within their lifetime, very recently after the life of Jesus.

Luke is a historian of the first rank; not merely are his statements of fact trustworthy... this author should be placed along with the very greatest of historians. Sir William Ramsay, Archaeologist

[Sacchetto Boutique]

Shiekh yusuf estes is well known..thats y i chose that particular sheikh and HIS website. He was a pastor before but as someone said previously, we will all believe in what we feel most inclined to believe. All religions will claim that theirs is the truth so i guess, when u think logically about it, thats where FAITH kicks in. I have my reasons for following islam and you have your reasons for following anything you want to follow

[metalgear2095]

Shiekh yusuf estes is well known..thats y i chose that particular sheikh and HIS website. He was a pastor before but as someone said previously, we will all believe in what we feel most inclined to believe. All religions will claim that theirs is the truth so i guess, when u think logically about it, thats where FAITH kicks in. I have my reasons for following islam and you have your reasons for following anything you want to follow

Matters not If he well known. It's silly to ask a Muslim to compare the Quran and Bible and believe you will have a fair comparison.

[Habit7]

So what if was a pastor, you can buy a certificate saying you are one right next to the store that sells out doctorate, masters and starship commander badges, ask Hafizool.

But to say because he was pastor his is right on everything theological is committing the logical fallacy of argument from authority.

[megadoc1]

@ megadoc1 i refer you back to the same text i pasted to the various errors indentified. Although the Bible may have started out correctly..ok no the BIBLE DID start out correctly but was changed over time as i have indentified in the info above...u see, the comparison was made of both the Quran and bible in my post and since teh quran came out after to correct those errors, isnt it logical to accept the quran?

what? no where in your post tells us when ,where or by whom the bible was changed. this is just a remark made with no supporting evidence, also nowhere in the quran suggests itself as a correction to the bible! in fact even muhamed was advised to reference the bible! so lease tell me when the bible was changed and by who and when?
yuh see the problem you have is that you look at the bible as one book just like the quran but it is not, rather it is a collection of books that were written by various authors over a period of sixteen hundred years, then it was collated as one (bible) just before the advent of islam so its kind of silly to assert that the bible was changed what would be proper is if you say some books in the bible was changed and it would serve us well if you can tell us which one! unless of course you want to say all were but that requires alot more evidence from you

i dont know who changed parts of it but how is it that there are so many versions of the bible?

there is one version of the bible in its original form ,what we have are different English or modern day language translations but if you compare them to the original you would know which contains error !
but the issue is not about the translations being corrupted, your assertion suggests that the bible in its original form is corrupted ! that same bible was around in its completed form before muhamed,
even Gabriel suggested that muhamed seek confirmation from the people of the book, no where did they consider at that time that the bible was corrupted they even boast about it contents such as the psalms and the gospels so this is a new accusation made by muslims ,that's why they need to tell us when did this supposed "change" took place but I know you cant because we still have the bible in its original form and if you want you can look it up for your self

[mamoo_pagal]

@ megadoc1 i refer you back to the same text i pasted to the various errors indentified. Although the Bible may have started out correctly..ok no the BIBLE DID start out correctly but was changed over time as i have indentified in the info above...u see, the comparison was made of both the Quran and bible in my post and since teh quran came out after to correct those errors, isnt it logical to accept the quran?

what? no where in your post tells us when ,where or by whom the bible was changed. this is just a remark made with no supporting evidence, also nowhere in the quran suggests itself as a correction to the bible! in fact even muhamed was advised to reference the bible! so lease tell me when the bible was changed and by who and when?
yuh see the problem you have is that you look at the bible as one book just like the quran but it is not, rather it is a collection of books that were written by various authors over a period of sixteen hundred years, then it was collated as one (bible) just before the advent of islam so its kind of silly to assert that the bible was changed what would be proper is if you say some books in the bible was changed and it would serve us well if you can tell us which one! unless of course you want to say all were but that requires alot more evidence from you

i dont know who changed parts of it but how is it that there are so many versions of the bible?

come on don't try an AdamB on us, lets not stray, if you don't know who changed parts of it and you don't know what was changed how can you or anyone say things were changed? There is no text "pre" and "post" to know if anything was changed..........the website you quoted is extremely biased. Show me where a learned Christian scholar replies to his statements and an active debate takes place, then one can come to a probable conclusion.

[AdamB]

Come on Metalgear, are you ignorant of the fact that there are Christian "scholars" whose job it is TO CORRECT THE ERRORS IN THE BIBLE. The JW in fact corrected and got their own bible, the Good News Bible. They even came up with the "correct" name for GOD, JEHOVAH.

Are you "christians" in agreement with the use of that name?

[Habit7]

It is funny to hear Muslims point out that there are errors in the Bible when the illiterate Muhammad told his followers to follow the Torah, Psalms and Gospel because they are given by God (Sura 2:87, 4:163, 3:3 & 5:46) and they cannot be corrupted (6:34, 6:115 & 10:64).

Later literate Muslims realised that these books contradicted the Quran and began to say these books are corrupted (despite Allah said they can never be). They claim he was referring to the books before they were corrupted, but history proves (including the DSS) that these books were unchanged and widely distributed even up until the 7th century when Muhammad recited the Quran. The Torah, Psalms and Gospel of the 7th century is no different to one of the 21st century.

[megadoc1]

Come on Metalgear, are you ignorant of the fact that there are Christian "scholars" whose job it is TO CORRECT THE ERRORS IN THE BIBLE. The JW in fact corrected and got their own bible, the Good News Bible. They even came up with the "correct" name for GOD, JEHOVAH.

Are you "christians" in agreement with the use of that name?

correction ! the good news bible is not from the jws, the jws version is called the New World Translation!
2 the jw never set out to correct anything! but to provide themselves with a paraphrased version of the bible to suit their beliefs...I do find it strange that the one Bible translation that can be proven tampered and corrupt, is the one you seems to be ok with even calling it a correction?...nah man
3 The correct name or translation for God in the given scriptures is YAHWEH
4there are no such thing as christian scholars whose job it is TO CORRECT THE ERRORS IN THE BIBLE

you are ill informed

[AdamB]

I thought their beliefs were based on the bible. They recognized the incorrect translations from the original language/text, so decided to make a "correct" translation to lead themselves into error. Perfect!!

[Sacchetto Boutique]

mega n habit will disagree bc they are inclinded toward the bible. Obviously, they will never accept anything outside of that and thats fine. I believe the Quran is the Truth. You believe in your books are true. We ARE told to reference the Bible but logically speaking, how can we look to a book that is different from the Quran? That suggests to us that the BIBLE WAS CHANGED bc it is supped to say the same things. From the time of Prophet Adam till the time of Muhammad saws, the SAME thing was being preached. The prat that says the book cannot be corrupted refers to God's words cannot be corrupted, but written text can be. We all seem to be interpreting things differently. Btw, Sheikh Yusuf Estes isnt some 'fly by night' person. If you dont know who he is, that doesnt mean he isnt vastly knowledgeable in both the bible and the Quran but I understand that you would be more drawn toward what you strongly believe in as I am toward islam. We have our differences and both believe in different things but there is just too much doubt when it comes to Christianity. I have chosen islam as the truth and i have stated y...it is MY choice, as u have made urs.
The truth is, every truth u bring for Christianty, I and others who believe in islam or another faith, can find something to discredit it and vice versa

[Habit7]

^^^Your conclusion isnt as simple as "every truth u bring for Christianity, I and others who believe in islam or another faith, can find something to discredit it and vice versa"

You are making a historical unfounded claim that the Bible has been corrupted and that it used to corroborate Islam. There is no proof of this in history. Furthermore, the person putting forward the claim that the Torah, Psalms and the Gospel agreed with Islam, Muhammad, was illiterate, even you will acknowledge that. The Torah, Psalms and the Gospel of Muhammad's days is the same of today. It is either Muhammad was wrong on that point because he was ignorant of what these books contained or, you guys should listen to Muhammad and become Christians.

[megadoc1]

mega n habit will disagree bc they are inclinded toward the bible. Obviously, they will never accept anything outside of that and thats fine. I believe the Quran is the Truth. You believe in your books are true.

while this may be true in a sense,it is not a proper statement to make concerning what we are discussing ,we are discussing something based on the information we have before us WRT the Bible and the quran but you are the suggesting that one is corrupted without providing evidence for it all because it disagrees with the one that you are inclined to...therefore it would be more honest to say that Sacchetto n adam will disagree bc they are inclined toward the quran this would be in keeping to how this discussion is going my dear

We ARE told to reference the Bible but logically speaking, how can we look to a book that is different from the Quran?That suggests to us that the BIBLE WAS CHANGED bc it is supped to say the same things. From the time of Prophet Adam till the time of Muhammad saws, the SAME thing was being preached. The prat that says the book cannot be corrupted refers to God's words cannot be corrupted, but written text can be. We all seem to be interpreting things differently.

thats not a fault of the Bible but one of the quran,you cant blame the bible for being a contradiction to the quran,you need to blame the quran or the author for suggesting that its in harmony with the bible! you need to keep in mind that the bible was already there before muhamed got his message, you should blame him for not actually doing his home work and setting things striaght!

. Btw, Sheikh Yusuf Estes isnt some 'fly by night' person. If you dont know who he is, that doesnt mean he isnt vastly knowledgeable in both the bible and the Quran

it also does not mean he can't be wrong too

but I understand that you would be more drawn toward what you strongly believe in as I am toward islam. We have our differences and both believe in different things but there is just too much doubt when it comes to Christianity. I have chosen islam as the truth and i have stated y...it is MY choice, as u have made urs.

there must be doubts when comes to christianity cause....you are a muslim duh!!

The truth is, every truth u bring for Christianty, I and others who believe in islam or another faith, can find something to discredit it and vice versa

so what is truth?

[AdamB]

Allah (Almighty GOD with HIS Oneness according to Islamic monotheism) is the truth.

Following his revealed/perfected religion for our (and all) time (to come) is the truth.

The Angels are truth. The revealed books are truth. The Messengers are truth. The Day of Judgment (the Hereafter, Paradise and Hellfire) is the truth. Divine Pre-Decree is the Truth.

Your Choice will determine Your Truth!!

[pioneer]

I think some of you need a mental evaluation.

[AdamB]

I think some TROLL needs a mental evaluation.

Fixed!

[Sacchetto Boutique]

but I understand that you would be more drawn toward what you strongly believe in as I am toward islam. We have our differences and both believe in different things but there is just too much doubt when it comes to Christianity. I have chosen islam as the truth and i have stated y...it is MY choice, as u have made urs.

there must be doubts when comes to christianity cause....you are a muslim duh!!

And vice versa! - not sure if u know what 'vice versa' means from ur previous replies but yea. U doubt islam, just as i doubt christianity. You really think there will be a Pastor who is strong in christianity, who will discredit the bible? lol! Makes more sense coming from one who WAS a pastor but converted bc he had doubt. Thats why alot of people convert to islam btw.

I have a serious question. Did Paul, Luke, John or Matthew exist at the same time as Jesus (as)?

[AdamB]

They BELIEVE in the Bible. It doesn't matter when it comes to validity, authorship, authenticity and preservation.

This is called TAQLEED = BLIND FOLLOWING.

[Habit7]

You really think there will be a Pastor who is strong in christianity, who will discredit the bible? lol! Makes more sense coming from one who WAS a pastor but converted bc he had doubt. Thats why alot of people convert to islam btw.

If I were to find a Muslim scholar who converted to Christianity, wont that nullify your point?

I have a serious question. Did Paul, Luke, John or Matthew exist at the same time as Jesus (as)?

Whatever point you are trying to make here could only look worst for Islam as Muhammad puts forward an opposing view of Jesus 600 years after, while being illiterate. Matthew and John were disciples of Jesus, Paul was a contemporary and had a personal encounter with the resurrected Jesus and Luke was a companion of Paul as I explained earlier.

[MG Man]

The schools of thought in islam are different due to interpretation. That is why all muslims are advised to pick a school of thought and FOLLOW completely. I chose sunnah according to Imam Abu Hanifa because I believe that his teachings are the most sound and logical. We look to the imams of the old days to help us incorporate the knowledge in the Quran to todays world. Back when the quran was revealed, we didnt have issues like we have today however, the same principles/ teachings/ reasoning can be app;lied today to solve various issues.

so you admitting there are differences of opinion on what the koran teaches?

Following his revealed/perfected religion for our (and all) time (to come) is the truth.

bim contradicting bam?
surely not

[AdamB]

The schools of thought in islam are different due to interpretation. That is why all muslims are advised to pick a school of thought and FOLLOW completely. I chose sunnah according to Imam Abu Hanifa because I believe that his teachings are the most sound and logical. We look to the imams of the old days to help us incorporate the knowledge in the Quran to todays world. Back when the quran was revealed, we didnt have issues like we have today however, the same principles/ teachings/ reasoning can be app;lied today to solve various issues.

so you admitting there are differences of opinion on what the koran teaches?

Following his revealed/perfected religion for our (and all) time (to come) is the truth.

bim contradicting bam?
surely not

Well done in picking that up MG. I saw Sachetto Boutique make those statements a couple of times but she may not be "learned" enough or the knowledge make not have come to her...well, maybe until now. I didn't have time to deal with it properly, well still don't but people need to know the TRUTH.

There are four "schools of thought" in Islam but they DO NOT differ in CREED / BELIEF SYSTEM. There are minor differences in HOW they deal with certain issues, minor issues of rulings in certain matters.

The fact is that ALL of these imams gave rulings based on the hadith available / transmitted to them. They ALL said that if authentic or stronger hadith came, them to leave off their ruling and go with the stronger one.

The problem is that they did not intend to form a "school of thought" but their followers held on to their rulings and did so. In fact, they were students of each other like in the case of imam Shafiee being student of imam Abu Hanifa.

The prophet of Allah did not say to hold on of follow any "schools of thought". Rather he said to follow his sunnah and the sunnah of his rightly guided khalifahs, all of whom preceded the 4 imams.

Also, Allah says in the Quran that if you differ, then refer it back to Allah and his Messenger...ie refer to the Quran and sunnah/hadith...NOT any schools of thought.

Holding on to a school can lead someone into BLIND FOLLOWING, that they disregard authentic hadith and follow someone else's opinion on matters ...over the Messenger of Allah!!

SB...please make 2 rakaats and ask Allah to guide you to the truth on this matter.

[MG Man]

so Allah wasn't guiding her all along? Even though she has strong faith and pure intentions?

[AdamB]

As you well know MG, ignorance is bliss!!

Persons are not held accountable for what they did not deliberately intend or didn't have knowledge of.

Allah assures us that if we believe then surely we will be tested. SB has the ball in her court now, you too MG have a choice and response to make.

[megadoc1]

but I understand that you would be more drawn toward what you strongly believe in as I am toward islam. We have our differences and both believe in different things but there is just too much doubt when it comes to Christianity. I have chosen islam as the truth and i have stated y...it is MY choice, as u have made urs.

there must be doubts when comes to christianity cause....you are a muslim duh!!

And vice versa! - not sure if u know what 'vice versa' means from ur previous replies but yea. U doubt islam, just as i doubt christianity.

I guess you missed the point I was making....I was only trying to point out to you that when you claimed "but there is just too much doubts in christianity", its only because you are muslim and nothing more, this have nothing to do with me or what I believe I am not the one making tha statement! what you said should be understood by all , to simply put it,you were stating the obvious

You really think there will be a Pastor who is strong in christianity, who will discredit the bible? lol! Makes more sense coming from one who WAS a pastor but converted bc he had doubt. Thats why alot of people convert to islam btw.

lol... let me get this straight, when this man was a pastor you never took him seriously nor give any merit because he was a pastor but now that he converted to islam he is important or he means something and is considered valuable to you because he was a pastor? .....sounds legit!
how can you consider him to be "strong in Christianity" if you claimed "he converted because he had doubts"? that really makes more sense to you?...what about the many muslims that converted to christianity and became pastors? do they still mean anything to you? do you think they were strong Muslims? if this is how you determine truth I am sorry for you

I have a serious question. Did Paul, Luke, John or Matthew exist at the same time as Jesus (as)?

how does this help determine truth from the scriptures? are you ready to switch topic?

[Daran]

[Sacchetto Boutique]

Everyday im learning...i never said i was a scholar in islam. I thank you Adamb for correcting me

[MG Man]

so woh?
no love for me for highlighting your ignorance?

[Sacchetto Boutique]

so woh?
no love for me for highlighting your ignorance?

thank u mg man for highlighting my ignorance.. really bc now, i understand..didnt knwo before about teh school of thought thing so yea..thanks...

[MG Man]

s'ok
religion seldom teaches people to think for themselves
why u think the 'sheep' analogy is used so often?