The Religion Discussion

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ I highlighted the question that I posted an answer to.

I don't think there is any cause. You do not need a cause to NOT believe in something. What is the cause for you not believing in a singing orange apple with six eyes and a big nose that lives on the dark side of the moon?

[marlener]

Well guess you could mention that to Mg man,and maybe I do may I don`t believe in a singing orange with six eyes and a big nose that lives on the dark side of the moon. But I don`t think it would bring anything of value to this thread so I wouldn`t comment on it.

[AdamB]

I`ve been reading for quite a while with no comment,just out of curiousity seeing that nareshsheep and a couple other don`t believe in God,whose fault do they think it is? What is your take on it Duane,what do you think is the cause?

They don't think it's a fault, rather a virtue, a sign of "intelligence".

And be not like those who forgot Allah (i.e. became disobedient to Allah), and He caused them to forget their ownselves, (let them to forget to do righteous deeds). Those are the Fasiqun (rebellious, disobedient to Allah).

( سورة الحشر , Al-Hashr, Chapter #59, Verse #19)

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Well guess you could mention that to Mg man,and maybe I do may I don`t believe in a singing orange with six eyes and a big nose that lives on the dark side of the moon. But I don`t think it would bring anything of value to this thread so I wouldn`t comment on it.

it's not out of context though because your concept of God holds about the same value to MG Man as the orange apple on the moon. That is why I brought it up.

Ok let me change it up a bit. MG Man says he believes in the Flying Spaghetti Monster and instead of saying "Amen", he says "Ramen", like the noodles. Do you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

The same way you choose not to believe Bramha, Vishnu and Shiva are God is the same way AdamB chooses not to believe Jesus is God and the same way you choose not to believe God revealed his final message to Muhammad.

What makes your choice right?

[bluefete]

the reason they are suffering is all attributed to man.

since u dont believe in God. u shouldnt have any problem accepting the blame. since it is fault of science and capitalism exploiting the mineral resources in their countries whilst giving them nothing in return.

noone is teaching them how the system works, they dont even have school. capitalism just plundered the continent, killed and exploited the ppl. they have yet to receive anything in return for what their land has given to the entire world!

and what was the reason for drought, famine and disease before there was capitalism?

What is the reason for thousands of people dying from earthquakes or hurricanes or even the more than 1,000 people who were injured, including more than 200 children from meteors? is that Capitalism too?

Are you saying God allows a baby in Africa to suffer because of capitalism that happened on Wall Street. Did that baby deserve that?

No Duane - For you rationalists that would be natural selection. So you cannot blame God there because he does not exist in your natural, scientific world.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

the reason they are suffering is all attributed to man.

since u dont believe in God. u shouldnt have any problem accepting the blame. since it is fault of science and capitalism exploiting the mineral resources in their countries whilst giving them nothing in return.

noone is teaching them how the system works, they dont even have school. capitalism just plundered the continent, killed and exploited the ppl. they have yet to receive anything in return for what their land has given to the entire world!

and what was the reason for drought, famine and disease before there was capitalism?

What is the reason for thousands of people dying from earthquakes or hurricanes or even the more than 1,000 people who were injured, including more than 200 children from meteors? is that Capitalism too?

Are you saying God allows a baby in Africa to suffer because of capitalism that happened on Wall Street. Did that baby deserve that?

No Duane - For you rationalists that would be natural selection. So you cannot blame God there because he does not exist in your natural, scientific world.

I was not blaming God, I was asking a question.

I now have other questions!
Why do you think God does not exist in a natural, scientific world?
Does the blame shift based on what the person believes?
Does MG Man have to blame the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

BTW people dying in an earthquake has nothing to do with natural selection.

[bluefete]

the reason they are suffering is all attributed to man.

since u dont believe in God. u shouldnt have any problem accepting the blame. since it is fault of science and capitalism exploiting the mineral resources in their countries whilst giving them nothing in return.

noone is teaching them how the system works, they dont even have school. capitalism just plundered the continent, killed and exploited the ppl. they have yet to receive anything in return for what their land has given to the entire world!

and what was the reason for drought, famine and disease before there was capitalism?

What is the reason for thousands of people dying from earthquakes or hurricanes or even the more than 1,000 people who were injured, including more than 200 children from meteors? is that Capitalism too?

Are you saying God allows a baby in Africa to suffer because of capitalism that happened on Wall Street. Did that baby deserve that?

No Duane - For you rationalists that would be natural selection. So you cannot blame God there because he does not exist in your natural, scientific world.

I was not blaming God, I was asking a question.

I now have other questions!

Why do you think God does not exist in a natural, scientific world? I believe that God exists in the natural world. I see it everyday with my eyes, hear it with my ears and smell it with my nostrils. You rationalists however believe that you must have proof. Like Turbotusty says - The proof is all around you, if you open your eyes to see.

Does the blame shift based on what the person believes? I was reading something very interesting the other night. A different view that tries to explain that the earth existed long before people were placed here and that Satan was the destroyer of the original earth. The earthly creation described in Genesis was God's 2nd effort.

Now, the blame for what? God's perfect will is to give people free will and let them face the consequences thereafter. Was it God's fault that people disobeyed his instructions? Why do we blame God for everything. It is time we humans start owning up to our failures and stop blaming God for it.[/u]

Does MG Man have to blame the Flying Spaghetti Monster?


MGMan can blame whomsoever or whatsoever he wants to. That is his belief in trying to make sense out of things.


BTW people dying in an earthquake has nothing to do with natural selection.

Nice try there, Duane. But don't look to abandon your perspective now! Earthquakes and people dying, for evolutionists, have everything to do with natural selection. Only the strong can survive an earthquake, not so. Even if it is a random occurrence of nature?

[DFC]

just some perspective.




In this immense, trillion trillion light years galaxy, our earth and solar system is as minute as a speck of dust.

What are the chances that other planets contain Life?
Do you think these life-forms know about Allah, Visnu or Christ?

[bluefete]

just some perspective.




In this immense, trillion trillion light years galaxy, our earth and solar system is as minute as a speck of dust.

What are the chances that other planets contain Life?
Do you think these life-forms know about Allah, Visnu or Christ?

There is always that possibility. However, the Bible teaches that at the end times, men will travel to the uttermost parts of the heavens.

Lucifer was the first life form on earth. Was he an alien life form? One can say so because he was exiled to this planet after he tried to take over God's throne.

If pone looks at all the miniscule discoveries that people have made so far, we are still throwing stones in our search for life outside of earth.

Whether they know about Allah, Vishnu or Christ may surprise us all. But if they have eyes, nostrils and ears, then yopu can be certain about the orderliness of God's creations in the universe.

[DFC]

And in Science today.....

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/04/30/girl-windpipe-stem-cells/2123881/

2-year-old girl gets windpipe made from stem cells

CHICAGO (AP) — A 2-year-old girl born without a windpipe now has a new one grown from her own stem cells, the youngest patient in the world to benefit from the experimental treatment.

Hannah Warren has been unable to breathe, eat, drink or swallow on her own since she was born in South Korea in 2010. Until the operation at a U.S. hospital, she had spent her entire life in a hospital in Seoul. Doctors there told her parents there was no hope and they expected her to die.

The stem cells came from Hannah's bone marrow, extracted with a special needle inserted into her hip bone. They were seeded in a lab onto a plastic scaffold, where it took less than a week for them to multiply and create a new windpipe.

The windpipe was implanted April 9 in a nine-hour procedure.

Early signs indicate the windpipe is working, Hannah's doctors announced Tuesday, although she is still on a ventilator. They believe she will eventually be able to live at home and lead a normal life.

"We feel like she's reborn," said Hannah's father, Darryl Warren.

"They hope that she can do everything that a normal child can do but it's going to take time. This is a brand new road that all of us are on," he said in a telephone interview. "This is her only chance but she's got a fantastic one and an unbelievable one."

Warren choked up and his wife, Lee Young-mi, was teary-eyed at a hospital news conference Tuesday. Hannah did not attend because she is still recovering from the surgery. She developed an infection after the operation but now is acting like a healthy 2-year-old, her doctors said.

Warren said he hopes the family can bring Hannah home for the first time in a month or so. Hannah turns 3 in August.

"It's going to be amazing for us to finally be together as a family of four," he said. The couple has an older daughter.

Only about one in 50,000 children worldwide are born with the windpipe defect. The stem-cell technique has been used to make other body parts besides windpipes and holds promise for treating other birth defects and childhood diseases, her doctors said.

The operation brought together an Italian surgeon based in Sweden who pioneered the technique, a pediatric surgeon at Children's Hospital of Illinois who met Hannah's family while on a business trip to South Korea, and Hannah — born to a Newfoundland man and Korean woman who married after he moved to that country to teach English.

Hannah's parents had read about Dr. Paolo Macchiarini's success using stem-cell based tracheas but couldn't afford to pay for the operation at his center, the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm. So Dr. Mark Holterman helped the family arrange to have the procedure at his hospital, bringing in Macchiarini to lead the operation. Children's Hospital waived the cost, likely hundreds of thousands of dollars, Holterman said.

The Roman Catholic hospital considers the operation part of their mission to provide charity care, but also views it as a way to champion a type of stem-cell therapy that doesn't involve human embryos, the surgeons said. The Catholic church opposes using stem cells derived from human embryos in research or treatment.

Macchiarini has been involved in 14 previous windpipe operations using patients' own stem cells — five using man-made scaffolds like Hannah's but in adults; and nine using scaffolds made from cadaver windpipes, including one in a 10-year-old British boy.

He said only one patient died, a 30-year-old man from the U.S. who had the operation in November 2011 to treat late-stage cancer of the windpipe. He died about four months later of uncertain causes, Macchiarini said.

Similar methods have been used to grow bladders, urethras and last year a girl in Sweden got a lab-made vein using her own stem cells and a cadaver vein.

Scientists hope to eventually use the method to create solid organs, including kidneys and livers, said Dr. Anthony Atala, director of Wake Forest University's Institute for Regenerative Medicine. He said the operation on Hannah Warren "is really showing that the technique is workable."

Hannah had breathing difficulties at birth and Korean doctors soon discovered the missing windpipe. They reconfigured her esophagus so that a breathing tube could go down it from her mouth to her lungs. The esophagus normally runs behind the windpipe and carries food to the stomach.

Korean doctors said she couldn't live long with the tube and told her parents there was nothing more they could do.

Hannah outlived their expectations and has thrived despite the grim prognosis and other abnormalities including an undeveloped voice box that prevented her from speaking. Now that she has a windpipe and can breathe more normally, doctors expect the larynx to grow and function normally. She will work with speech therapists to help her learn to talk.

Holterman said Hannah will likely need a new windpipe in about five years, as she grows.

She breathes with help from a ventilator but no longer has a tube in her mouth that she'd lived with since shortly after birth, Holterman said. She's not yet able to eat normally, but doctors let her have her first taste ever of food — a few licks on a lollipop. Her father said she already has discriminating taste and prefers chocolate Korean lollipops to the American kind.

"I asked her, 'Is it good?'" he said, "and she immediately nodded her head."

[Habit7]

In this immense, trillion trillion light years galaxy, our earth and solar system is as minute as a speck of dust.

What are the chances that other planets contain Life?
Do you think these life-forms know about Allah, Visnu or Christ?

^^^the faith is strong with this one

P.S. last guess the universe was 150 billion lightyears wide

[bluefete]

DFC: (Daniel 12:4) But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ please don't quote like that

anyway you are not being very clear.
You said

you cannot blame God there because he does not exist in your natural, scientific world.

that means you can't blame something if you don't believe in it. That does not make sense!

The proof is all around you, if you open your eyes to see.

MG Man or one of them brought up that point earlier: You are claiming "everything exists, therefore God". That is flawed logic.

Besides, my point is that the universe is awesome, but we have conflicting holy texts claiming God's message and how man should operate in this awesome universe. So which holy text is right?

I was reading something very interesting the other night. A different view that tries to explain that the earth existed long before people were placed here and that Satan was the destroyer of the original earth. The earthly creation described in Genesis was God's 2nd effort.

csb, do you believe this story? If not then I have no idea how that is relevant.

Nice try there, Duane. But don't look to abandon your perspective now! Earthquakes and people dying, for evolutionists, have everything to do with natural selection. Only the strong can survive an earthquake, not so. Even if it is a random occurrence of nature?

:lol: abandon my perspective?

an earthquake or natural disaster is not a deficiency. No strength of species can survive a volcano erupting directly on them. That is NOT what natural selection is.
"Natural selection is the gradual, non-random process by which biological traits become either more or less common in a population as a function of differential reproduction of their bearers. It is a key mechanism of evolution."
So you think Noah's flood was natural selection?

[DFC]

just some perspective.




In this immense, trillion trillion light years galaxy, our earth and solar system is as minute as a speck of dust.

What are the chances that other planets contain Life?
Do you think these life-forms know about Allah, Visnu or Christ?

There is always that possibility. However, the Bible teaches that at the end times, men will travel to the uttermost parts of the heavens.

Lucifer was the first life form on earth. Was he an alien life form? One can say so because he was exiled to this planet after he tried to take over God's throne.

If pone looks at all the miniscule discoveries that people have made so far, we are still throwing stones in our search for life outside of earth.

Discoveries of the Planets, Solar Systems, Galaxies are not at all minuscule.
It has proven Christianity and Islam wrong in the past.

Mars Rover is named Curiosity. Because it is deeply embedded in our Human Nature, Curiosity.
If it wasnt for our curiosity and intelligence to question everything, we would still be living in fear in a cave.


Where is the Empirical evidence of Lucifer?
Lucifer only exists in the Bible and Satanic Verses in the Quran.
In Hinduism, there is no Satan/ Lucifer. Hinduism is considerably older than Christianity/Islam.

In Christianity/Islam, Satan is blamed for the downfall of Mankind.
In Hinduism, Man alone is responsible for his actions/deeds and creates Karma, both good and bad.


So who is right?
Who is more LOGICAL?

[Habit7]

Empirical evidence is not the only way to prove some thing is true.

I never said it was.
there are many forms of evidence, even circumstantial evidence. Then there is testing of evidence.

So then why are you asking for empirical proof for the God of the Bible who is non-material and eternal

I never said Science disproves God. I'm saying that you are not showing any empirical evidence to support your claims.

the issue here is that you have a claim and the only evidence you have is from a book that claims the book is true. There are also conflicting accounts from other Holy Books and there is also conflicting evidence. You cannot prove the other books are wrong and your book is right and you cannot deny the evidence, all you can do is ignore it and tell yourself it's a conspiracy.

Wow Duane go easy on the straw man fallacies. I dont know which particular claim you are referring to but I have given you evidence outside of the Bible. I have staked the Bible's trustworthiness in its archaeology and the numerous and synchronistic manuscripts that offer primary and secondary sources for their historical evidence, which no other "holy books" have or exceeds the Bible with this.

But again you will claim I have no evidence and I trust the Bible on blind faith or as I see your new appeal is "conspiracy"

So I challenge you, name another "holy book" that exceeds the Bible on historicity.

[Habit7]

Discoveries of the Planets, Solar Systems, Galaxies are not at all minuscule.
It has proven Christianity and Islam wrong in the past.

How does this disprove Christianity?

Where is the Empirical evidence of Lucifer?
Lucifer only exists in the Bible and Satanic Verses in the Quran.
In Hinduism, there is no Satan/ Lucifer. Hinduism is considerably older than Christianity/Islam.

Lucifer is introduced in Judaism, which is as old as man.

In Christianity/Islam, Satan is blamed for the downfall of Mankind.
In Hinduism, Man alone is responsible for his actions/deeds and creates Karma, both good and bad.

In Christianity man is blamed for the downfall of mankind.



You seem to not be really good at this theology stuff

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ and AdamB shot it down (no pun intended )

I told you already your historicity claim is flawed. The Qur'an also claims it is historically accurate.
Which one to believe?

on a side note, I noticed that "historicity" and "worldview" are terms that only christian apologetics use.

The conspiracy claim is because it seems you think scientists, history channel, discovery, nat geo etc are out to deny God for some personal gain - why else would they try to cover up what you think is the truth?

[bluefete]

just some perspective.




In this immense, trillion trillion light years galaxy, our earth and solar system is as minute as a speck of dust.

What are the chances that other planets contain Life?
Do you think these life-forms know about Allah, Visnu or Christ?

There is always that possibility. However, the Bible teaches that at the end times, men will travel to the uttermost parts of the heavens.

Lucifer was the first life form on earth. Was he an alien life form? One can say so because he was exiled to this planet after he tried to take over God's throne.

If pone looks at all the miniscule discoveries that people have made so far, we are still throwing stones in our search for life outside of earth.

Discoveries of the Planets, Solar Systems, Galaxies are not at all minuscule.
It has proven Christianity and Islam wrong in the past. [color=#400000]How so?
[/color]
Mars Rover is named Curiosity. Because it is deeply embedded in our Human Nature, Curiosity.
If it wasnt for our curiosity and intelligence to question everything, we would still be living in fear in a cave.
That ios why i gave you the quote about knowledge being increased.

Where is the Empirical evidence of Lucifer?
Lucifer only exists in the Bible and Satanic Verses in the Quran.
In Hinduism, there is no Satan/ Lucifer. Hinduism is considerably older than Christianity/Islam.

In Christianity/Islam, Satan is blamed for the downfall of Mankind.
In Hinduism, Man alone is responsible for his actions/deeds and creates Karma, both good and bad.


So who is right?
Who is more LOGICAL?

Doesn't Hinduism have its context of good and evil. Don't Hindu Gods / Goddesses represent both good and evil? Shiva is accompanied by demons sometimes, not so?

[bluefete]

^ please don't quote like that

anyway you are not being very clear.
You said

you cannot blame God there because he does not exist in your natural, scientific world.

that means you can't blame something if you don't believe in it. That does not make sense! Why does it not make sense? If I don't believe in the flying spaghetti monster, why would I blame it for anything? Did you ever notice that the first name people call when they are in trouble is 'God"? Even those who cuss him everyday and say they don't believe in Him?

The proof is all around you, if you open your eyes to see.

MG Man or one of them brought up that point earlier: You are claiming "everything exists, therefore God". That is flawed logic.

Besides, my point is that the universe is awesome(I totally agree), but we have conflicting holy texts claiming God's message and how man should operate in this awesome universe. So which holy text is right?

I was reading something very interesting the other night. A different view that tries to explain that the earth existed long before people were placed here and that Satan was the destroyer of the original earth. The earthly creation described in Genesis was God's 2nd effort.

csb, do you believe this story? If not then I have no idea how that is relevant.

Nice try there, Duane. But don't look to abandon your perspective now! Earthquakes and people dying, for evolutionists, have everything to do with natural selection. Only the strong can survive an earthquake, not so. Even if it is a random occurrence of nature?

:lol: abandon my perspective?

an earthquake or natural disaster is not a deficiency. No strength of species can survive a volcano erupting directly on them. That is NOT what natural selection is.
"Natural selection is the gradual, non-random process by which biological traits become either more or less common in a population as a function of differential reproduction of their bearers. It is a key mechanism of evolution."
So you think Noah's flood was natural selection?

Which holy text is right? I remember hearing a story many years ago about the Virgin Mary appearing to some young people (presumably Catholic). One of the young people asked her who was the holiest person in the world at that time. It was said that the Virgin Mary pointed the children in the direction of a Muslim woman!! Go figure.

Noah's flood was about thinning of the species (almost all of them except for the aquatic ones) and adaptation to a new environment.

[rocknrolla]

^ how do you know which parts are logical and which parts are creative? Which parts are to be taken literally and which parts are not?

searching far and wide will take u down the yellow brick road. a trail of breadcrumbs u must follow. until it all culminates in a revelation of truth.

the above statement is true.. both logically and metaphorically.

so are you saying that the book "The Wonderful Wizard of Oz" by L. Frank Baum is comparable to the Bible?

there are many books, movies, cartoons etc which carry the message of the bible. but not the bible alone. the universal truth among all religions. they may not be as complete as the bible or the quran or torah etc. but they carry its essence. the secret understanding.

[rocknrolla]

the reason they are suffering is all attributed to man.

since u dont believe in God. u shouldnt have any problem accepting the blame. since it is fault of science and capitalism exploiting the mineral resources in their countries whilst giving them nothing in return.

noone is teaching them how the system works, they dont even have school. capitalism just plundered the continent, killed and exploited the ppl. they have yet to receive anything in return for what their land has given to the entire world!

and what was the reason for drought, famine and disease before there was capitalism?

What is the reason for thousands of people dying from earthquakes or hurricanes or even the more than 1,000 people who were injured, including more than 200 children from meteors? is that Capitalism too?

Are you saying God allows a baby in Africa to suffer because of capitalism that happened on Wall Street. Did that baby deserve that?

at one time God lived among the people. but the people turned away from their creator and worshipped other Gods for their 'magic'. so God left.

this is what the bible says.. meaning God is no longer here. we didnt care for him so now if we want him we have to go to him ourselves.

that is the story and may well be just a story. but the point is, You have to seek God. and if u werent sure that was the message.. they say it later on more plainly.. "seek ye the kingdom of Heaven."

sounds like a mission to undertake. have u been seeking? or did u just give it fantasy status which places it in the category.. too ridiculously fantastic to take seriously. but look around u and the being u are. isnt God a ridiculously fantastic being?

yes he is, given the claims made

but what i am trying to figure out is which account is correct.

What makes the Bible right and the Qur'an wrong? or are you just basing your belief that the Bible is truth on your preconceptions and faith?

dont try to dodge the question. if God doesnt exist.. who is soully responsible for the way the world is today?

but i see what ur issue is. u have a beef to pick with God. something happened that u dont like and ur blaming God. to hurt him in defiance by saying he does not exist. every time u say it u feel some satisfaction. but deep down u know it have a bossman out there.

dont know how many times i have to say it. but i dont think any of them are wrong. merging the knowledge in all the books and looking at their similarities sheds a whole new light on understanding. there are 7 main religions and 7 main books. each carries weakness which the other does not, and carries the strength of the others weaknesses.

it is a book of powerful knowledge and advice for living. how to utilize the gift of ur life force and better urself. it tells u a tale of there being more to this world than the eyes can see. in ur rebellion, u choose not to evolve into a butterfly. but ur only keeping back urself. that choice affects noone but urself.

this world is most definitely comprised of 2 distinct attributes. logic, provides order for creating structure

and creativity which embodies mysterious aspects of existence such as emotions and randomness. ying and yang. to focus on the logical aspects only is to ignore half of the picture. creativity creates and logic assembles. that's the way it works. logic cant create anything on its own.

if i take a picture with 3 ppl in it. cut it down the center and only show u half. how will u describe to me the whole picture? how can u know it? how can u know what colour sweater the 3rd person is wearing. is it a boy or a girl?

the way i see it now, it's just smarter to look at the whole picture before u make a judgement.

[AdamB]

Well guess you could mention that to Mg man,and maybe I do may I don`t believe in a singing orange with six eyes and a big nose that lives on the dark side of the moon. But I don`t think it would bring anything of value to this thread so I wouldn`t comment on it.

MGMan already halfway to becoming a muslim, the first half:
THERE IS NO (TRUE) GOD (WORTHY OF WORSHIP).

I ask Allah to guide him to the second half (but he needs to seek it with sincerity in his heart):
EXCEPT ALLAH!

[AdamB]

^ please don't quote like that

anyway you are not being very clear.
You said

you cannot blame God there because he does not exist in your natural, scientific world.

that means you can't blame something if you don't believe in it. That does not make sense! Why does it not make sense? If I don't believe in the flying spaghetti monster, why would I blame it for anything? Did you ever notice that the first name people call when they are in trouble is 'God"? Even those who cuss him everyday and say they don't believe in Him?

The proof is all around you, if you open your eyes to see.

MG Man or one of them brought up that point earlier: You are claiming "everything exists, therefore God". That is flawed logic.

Besides, my point is that the universe is awesome(I totally agree), but we have conflicting holy texts claiming God's message and how man should operate in this awesome universe. So which holy text is right?

I was reading something very interesting the other night. A different view that tries to explain that the earth existed long before people were placed here and that Satan was the destroyer of the original earth. The earthly creation described in Genesis was God's 2nd effort.

csb, do you believe this story? If not then I have no idea how that is relevant.

Nice try there, Duane. But don't look to abandon your perspective now! Earthquakes and people dying, for evolutionists, have everything to do with natural selection. Only the strong can survive an earthquake, not so. Even if it is a random occurrence of nature?

:lol: abandon my perspective?

an earthquake or natural disaster is not a deficiency. No strength of species can survive a volcano erupting directly on them. That is NOT what natural selection is.
"Natural selection is the gradual, non-random process by which biological traits become either more or less common in a population as a function of differential reproduction of their bearers. It is a key mechanism of evolution."
So you think Noah's flood was natural selection?

Which holy text is right? I remember hearing a story many years ago about the Virgin Mary appearing to some young people (presumably Catholic). One of the young people asked her who was the holiest person in the world at that time. It was said that the Virgin Mary pointed the children in the direction of a Muslim woman!! Go figure.
A Baptist girl who just accepted Islam said that
1. muslim women are the only ones who dress like Mary (and are persecuted by Christians for it) and
2. muslims are the only ones who perform acts of worship IN THE MANNER that are commanded in the bible for believers to do.

Noah's flood was about thinning of the species (almost all of them except for the aquatic ones) and adaptation to a new environment.

Noah's flood, well flood in Noah's time was LIMITED TO HIS PEOPLE AND WHERE THEY LIVED (VALLEY). This is an Islamic view.

[Habit7]

^ and AdamB shot it down (no pun intended )

I told you already your historicity claim is flawed. The Qur'an also claims it is historically accurate.
Which one to believe?

on a side note, I noticed that "historicity" and "worldview" are terms that only christian apologetics use.

The conspiracy claim is because it seems you think scientists, history channel, discovery, nat geo etc are out to deny God for some personal gain - why else would they try to cover up what you think is the truth?

AdamB didn't shoot down anything, his holy book says that the Torah, Psalms and Gospel comes from Allah but the Torah, Psalms and Gospel of Muhammad's time and now repudiates Islam. His retort is that it has been changed and that does fly because by the 7th century those books were in wide dissemination across the known world while Muhammad were appealing to them. Did some anti-Muslim gather them all together, change their original Islamic meaning and put them back before anyone noticed. Like you, I challenged him to provide Allah's Torah, Psalms and Gospel and all I can expect is him to quote me followed by a Islamic bot response with the accompanying big font and colours and no answer.

You are yet to claim my historicity claim is flawed. No notable historian appeals to the Quran as a credible source for the life of Jesus. As I explained to you historians look for primary and secondary sources for evidence. When the Quran claims the Muhammad was the first Muslim (Surah 39:12) then Moses (7:143) then Abraham and Jacob (2:132) with no secondary sources give or take 2,000 years later, that doesn't hold a candle to the Bible. If you are responding to my challenge by putting forward the Quran as book of equal or superseding historicity, the Quran falls terribly short.

Well you seem to somewhat know your way around a dictionary, you will see these are not terms coined by Christian apologists, they are terms relative to the discussion. If you watch the video I posted with the evangelical atheist Bill Maher, he used term "worldview" because it was relative to the discussion.

Wow, did I say they are out to cover up God for some personal gain? I staked it in the philosophical views of naturalism and materialism. I won't post the entire thing but you can reference it here:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=267363&p=7003936#p7003936

So you still want to put forward a holy book with greater historicity?

[Kasey]

yea the Gita.

[AdamB]

^ and AdamB shot it down (no pun intended )

I told you already your historicity claim is flawed. The Qur'an also claims it is historically accurate.
Which one to believe?

on a side note, I noticed that "historicity" and "worldview" are terms that only christian apologetics use.

The conspiracy claim is because it seems you think scientists, history channel, discovery, nat geo etc are out to deny God for some personal gain - why else would they try to cover up what you think is the truth?

AdamB didn't shoot down anything, his holy book says that the Torah, Psalms and Gospel comes from Allah but the Torah, Psalms and Gospel of Muhammad's time and now repudiates Islam. His retort is that it has been changed and that does fly because by the 7th century those books were in wide dissemination across the known world while Muhammad were appealing to them. Did some anti-Muslim gather them all together, change their original Islamic meaning and put them back before anyone noticed. Like you, I challenged him to provide Allah's Torah, Psalms and Gospel and all I can expect is him to quote me followed by a Islamic bot response with the accompanying big font and colours and no answer.

You are yet to claim my historicity claim is flawed. No notable historian appeals to the Quran as a credible source for the life of Jesus. As I explained to you historians look for primary and secondary sources for evidence. When the Quran claims the Muhammad was the first Muslim (Surah 39:12) then Moses (7:143) then Abraham and Jacob (2:132) with no secondary sources give or take 2,000 years later, that doesn't hold a candle to the Bible. If you are responding to my challenge by putting forward the Quran as book of equal or superseding historicity, the Quran falls terribly short.

Well you seem to somewhat know your way around a dictionary, you will see these are not terms coined by Christian apologists, they are terms relative to the discussion. If you watch the video I posted with the evangelical atheist Bill Maher, he used term "worldview" because it was relative to the discussion.

Wow, did I say they are out to cover up God for some personal gain? I staked it in the philosophical views of naturalism and materialism. I won't post the entire thing but you can reference it here:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=267363&p=7003936#p7003936

So you still want to put forward a holy book with greater historicity?

Habit7,
You are in denial. You only talk and talk about the Bible having this GREAT HISTORICITY.

What is clouding your vision of unbiased historical evidence? ... the "facts" / records that you claim don't have FIRM authorship, authority and preservation.

I challenge you to research and compare the science or method of reports/narrations (with their criteria) that has led to the documentation and preservation of the Bible and Quran.

You will see that the "Bible" comes nowhere close to the Quran and Hadith (prophet narrations of Islam).

[Habit7]

^^^no big font and colours

[Habit7]

Let me lay it out to you guys again. In this discussion we have been addressing the intellect but let me address the conscience. Our God given conscience bears witness that we have done wrong, we have all lied (big and small), stolen (items, music, employer’s time), dishonoured our parents, etc. In the 10 commandment it says we should commit adultery and murder, but Jesus amplifies the commandments on the Sermon on the Mount were he equates lust (pornography of the mind) to adultery and hate to murder. So even if you allow for existence of God, we all stand guilty of breaking His laws and we deserve punishment.

But God being rich in mercy, sent the Son, who is a person of the Godhead as a man, to live the sinless life we failed to live. And He submitted Himself according to the foreknown plan of God to die as a sacrifice for the sin of man. Their sin would be placed on Him and He will receive their punishment, and His righteousness would be placed on them and they will receive adoption. He not only died but He rose again to new life. So that if one repents of their sin and puts their faith in His work for the forgiveness of their sins, His actions would be made efficacious to them. In addition not only would their sins be forgiven, but they will have a new mind with new desires to truly please God, just as Christ rose to new life.

All other world religions would say that you have to do something to merit God’s favour. This is considered a message of works, but the Gospel is a message of grace. God has done all the work for us, and to those He graces unto them His righteousness, He gives them the power to live lives of decreasing sin and increasing sanctification. This is the most loving action anyone has ever done for us, every breath we have is God giving us more opportunity to turn to Him, because when we die there is no second chances. So repent and trust in Jesus today.

[Sacchetto Boutique]

I was doing some research...came across this found on the following website:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/is ... bible.html

Referring to Prophet Muhammad saws

a reference is made to him in Deuteronomy verse 18 and 19.

Deu 18:15 "The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear,

Deu 18:16 "according to all you desired of the LORD your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, 'Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, nor let me see this great fire anymore, lest I die.'

Deu 18:17 "And the LORD said to me: 'What they have spoken is good.

Deu 18:18 'I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him.

Deu 18:19 'And it shall be [that] whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require [it] of him.

Deu 18:20 'But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.'

Deu 18:21 "And if you say in your heart, 'How shall we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?'--

Deu 18:22 "when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that [is] the thing which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.

Is this authentic information or fabricated?

[rocknrolla]

Let me lay it out to you guys again. In this discussion we have been addressing the intellect but let me address the conscience. Our God given conscience bears witness that we have done wrong, we have all lied (big and small), stolen (items, music, employer’s time), dishonoured our parents, etc. In the 10 commandment it says we should commit adultery and murder, but Jesus amplifies the commandments on the Sermon on the Mount were he equates lust (pornography of the mind) to adultery and hate to murder. So even if you allow for existence of God, we all stand guilty of breaking His laws and we deserve punishment.

But God being rich in mercy, sent the Son, who is a person of the Godhead as a man, to live the sinless life we failed to live. And He submitted Himself according to the foreknown plan of God to die as a sacrifice for the sin of man. Their sin would be placed on Him and He will receive their punishment, and His righteousness would be placed on them and they will receive adoption. He not only died but He rose again to new life. So that if one repents of their sin and puts their faith in His work for the forgiveness of their sins, His actions would be made efficacious to them. In addition not only would their sins be forgiven, but they will have a new mind with new desires to truly please God, just as Christ rose to new life.

All other world religions would say that you have to do something to merit God’s favour. This is considered a message of works, but the Gospel is a message of grace. God has done all the work for us, and to those He graces unto them His righteousness, He gives them the power to live lives of decreasing sin and increasing sanctification. This is the most loving action anyone has ever done for us, every breath we have is God giving us more opportunity to turn to Him, because when we die there is no second chances. So repent and trust in Jesus today.

unfortunately uve contradicted urself without realizing it. u are trying to substantiate the claim that all are saved by grace and need do nothing. however.. u state that some should 'repent' or there will be no second chances.

which means ur saying.. we have a 'chance'. one chance... a chance at what? what must we accomplish with this chance? why is it a chance and not a garuntee?

indeed it seems even in ur contradicting viewpoint that one must earn some sort of merit. that NOT EVERYONE is saved thru Christ dying for all of humanity's sins. that they must at least turn to christ and cannot reject him. that they must at least repent because they inherently sinful (all mankind). that they must strive to reduce their sins to gain sanctification in God's eyes.

how therefore can u say.. there is no test, but there is a test in one paragraph? which is it? test or no test?

i refer u to Peter 4: 12

"Dear friends, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal that has come to TEST you"

do u propose that this is a test that has no pass or fail? it is a test just for testing sake? where failing or passing holds no difference in consequence?

does not seem to make sense to me.