Atheism and the government.

[bluefete]

Morals change over the years.

Really??? Since when was slavery right? The fact that Jospeh was sold into slavery in Egypt by his brothers made slavery a right thing to do?

[marlener]

I have probably already done that,minus the expose,but to answer you question yes I would.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ so if you would then what does it matter if he is an atheist or not?

Morals change over the years.

Really??? Since when was slavery right? The fact that Jospeh was sold into slavery in Egypt by his brothers made slavery a right thing to do?

why do religious books tell you how to beat your slaves and which slave girls you can sleep with? Why not just state outright that no man shall own a slave nor any man be owned by another?

[marlener]

Well it depends on what you mean by matter,as far as his personal salvation is concerned,public perception,performance wise,etc.Then my view is just that my my view not necessarily accepted by others.I just have one vote.I would feel rather uncomfortable with an entire atheist government though.

[bluefete]

^ so if you would then what does it matter if he is an atheist or not?

Morals change over the years.

Really??? Since when was slavery right? The fact that Joseph was sold into slavery in Egypt by his brothers made slavery a right thing to do?

why do religious books tell you how to beat your slaves and which slave girls you can sleep with? Why not just state outright that no man shall own a slave nor any man be owned by another?

The first commandment states that " I am the Lord your God ... who bought you out of bondage/slavery.

God permits it for reasons greater than our understanding. Just as he permits Kamla, Manning and company to be our rulers - For reasons greater than our understanding.

[nareshseep]

wait... bluefete just posted this?

its a trap,,,,

[bluefete]

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Well it depends on what you mean by matter,as far as his personal salvation is concerned,public perception,performance wise,etc.Then my view is just that my my view not necessarily accepted by others.I just have one vote.I would feel rather uncomfortable with an entire atheist government though.

ok, but what if the entire Govt were performing well? Carrying out their duties in office in an honest, diligent and efficient manner. You would have a problem with them just because they were atheists or secular and did not include the word "God" in the anthem, pledge and constitution?

would you refuse to join a car club if they did not have the word "God" in their constitution?

You mentioned before that you are Christian. Can you honestly say that you would have no problem with a Hindu or Muslim government? In the case of the latter all official anthems, doctrines, constitutions and laws would include "Allah" and "Muhammad". Would you have a problem with that?

[janfar]

There's religion for you. Bluefete said it right.

Go and strap 10 lbs of TNT to you chest and walk into an airport, dont question God's authority, its beyond our understanding.

Morality is something that comes from living in society among people. People are not morally correct because they read it from a book. Just bear in mind that 90% of athrocities commited worldwide were commited in the name of God eh.

I have never heard of an Atheist sect coming together and purging a country of its non Atheist.

Bottom line is, just as a Christian, Hindu or Muslim can get into government and not perform, then why cant an Atheist get into government ane perform admirably.

I dont think the Anthem would or should matter. If it comforts people to have it as is then why change it.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

I have never heard of an Atheist sect coming together and purging a country of its non Atheist.

Well there is no such thing as an Atheist or Agnostic Sect first to begin with. Atheism from what I understand is just lack of belief. It is not a religion or sect. It does not have doctrine or dogma, it's just a name given to people who don't believe in a God or Gods.

There are people who don't believe in Leprechauns but that does not mean they are part of a not-believing-in-leprechauns religion.

[janfar]

Exactly....

[Habit7]

^ there is that "I am more right than everyone" attitude.

Actually the transatlantic slave trade was no more than a few hundred years ago.

I specifically said thousands of years ago.

Regardless, you seem to think slavery in the Old Testament was different or better than what people consider to be slavery today.

Morals change over the years.

Well sorry if I point out your errors but if you choose to rebut my ""I am more right than everyone" attitude" doesnt it say you have one too?

Lets do a survey of slavery in the Bible and disabuse this notion of slavery being at some point in time morally correct:

Joseph a son of Israel was forcibly sold into slavery by his brothers but providentially becomes a ruler in Egypt. His family moved there because of famine in their land and is accommodated. But generations after, while the family of Israel has blossomed, a successive leader of Egypt forcibly enslaves Israel. A son of Israel providentially grows up in a noble Egyptian home, gains the knowledge and influence and eventually calls on Egypt to free his people, Egypt says no. Through miraculous events Egypt reluctantly frees Israel but changes its mind and tries to recapture them only for the last view of the Egyptians by Israel to be the Egyptians being terribly drowning at the bottom of the sea. Then comes Moses writing the Law (Torah) which includes laws governing slavery, do you think after all that Israel is given carte blanche to repeat what Egypt just did to them?

The slavery of the Bible doesnt allow for man-stealing, slaves willingly entered slavery to pay off debts, their children were born free, they were restricted to 6 years servitude (Exodus 21:2), they were given a severance at the end (Deuteronomy 15:14), they shared equally with the household (Leviticus 22:11), they were not abused (Exodus 21:20), etc. In the end "slavery" of the Bible ends up being a willing indentureship for people who lived in a time without a social net like we have today.

That being said, slavery like what we saw in the Transatlantic Slave Trade, which forcibly took people (man-stealing) to work in plantations, in inhumane work conditions, being abused, cyclic through generations with no hope of buying one's freedom, was wrong, as it was then just as it is now. Thank God for the good Christians souls that peaceably spoke up to their government and did not relent until all men were seen as equal just as the Biblical morality dictates.

[rocknrolla]

God is all about freedom. in every regard.

with great power comes great responsibility. God will simply never give you such great power without first judging ur heart and ability to wield it responsibly. every action causes a reaction. we must understand this. so that we will know which actions will create the proper reactions.

spiritual liberation is the ultimate freedom. liberated even from the confines of death.

[JoKeR1980]

buhhh....how you so sure about what God would or wouldn't give us?

[rocknrolla]

because that's what all the religious books say. but more than that, because i followed the instruction in those books and found it to be true. whether whoeever believe or not.

[Habit7]

I have never heard of an Atheist sect coming together and purging a country of its non Atheist.

Well there is no such thing as an Atheist or Agnostic Sect first to begin with. Atheism from what I understand is just lack of belief. It is not a religion or sect. It does not have doctrine or dogma, it's just a name given to people who don't believe in a God or Gods.

There are people who don't believe in Leprechauns but that does not mean they are part of a not-believing-in-leprechauns religion.

Having a belief in the non existence of God or gods is a doctrine and does form a dogma. It is not the absence of belief, it is the forcible repudiation of an idea and replacing it with one of a different view. People who dont believe in Leprechauns dont form a religion, but they do form a group/number/sect of persons who reject the existence of Leprechauns.

While I cannot think of a group that has gathered under the banner of atheism to purging a country of its non-atheists, there have been groups like communists who adopt an atheistic view. They subsequently view those with views against their own as a threat and to varying degrees of severity, act on countering it. These may be capitalists, some fascists and some religious especially those of the strongest conviction and allegiance to their text more than the gov't. We saw violent persecution and repression of the church in communists states like USSR and Vietnam and we are seeing now in North Korea where freedom of religion is restricted in order to perform a form of atheism manifested as state worship.

Just bear in mind that 90% of athrocities commited worldwide were commited in the name of God eh.

According to Phillips and Axlerod's, Encyclopedia of Wars, only 7% of wars are religious.




It is important not to impugn an ideology or worldview based on its followers, but based on its doctrine or teachings. If an ideology promotes non-violence, then its followers who violent are acting independent of the ideology. Like if ideology teaches survival of the fittest, the strongest survive and morals being subjective, then the result reflects the teachings that it promotes.

[rocknrolla]

correct^

ideology impacts the mentality of the person forming or following that ideology. if their ideology is wrong or twisted then they will think wrong and twisted. and believe it to be true, even tho they've received no confirmation from a divine source in a divine experience.

[JoKeR1980]

because that's what all the religious books say. but more than that, because i followed the instruction in those books and found it to be true. whether whoeever believe or not.

whats more important to you? spiritual wisdom or money? choose one...

[rocknrolla]

because that's what all the religious books say. but more than that, because i followed the instruction in those books and found it to be true. whether whoeever believe or not.

whats more important to you? spiritual wisdom or money? choose one...

spiritual wisdom is ok. but attaining is much more powerful. to answer your question. id prefer to become spiritually attained and suffer through this entire life poor, than to have no spiritual attainment and be rich all my life.

God however promises the blessed that they will always have what they need and will not need to worry about material things. but u have to become blessed first. and that can be a tough journey resisting temptation until then.

i choose spiritual attainment over everything that we can acquire in this world. nothing is more important. and i would not trade my attainment for anything in this world. not even all the money gold and jewels, 1000 concubines.. none of this can even tempt me to trade this priceless gift.

[JoKeR1980]

well...gimme all yuh money nah

[rocknrolla]

well...gimme all yuh money nah

that's silly, we need money to survive in this capitalist system. but that does not mean we have to be inhumane about capitalism. we can share.

if i was leaving society to live in the bush off the fat of the land id have no problem with that. but then i would prefer to give it to a God loving person.

observe, im not working for no big set of money. if i was to take out a loan on my salary id be paying for a loong time. yet God has given me 3 lots of land for free, and 1 more acre from a woman i dont even really know. ive spoken to her 3-4 times. i have no debts. everything i own and bought is paid for in full. i attribute all these things to God. and more because i was told beforehand that these things would happen to me for being faithful.

everything i touch blossoms and is fruitful with little to no effort. and that is in every avenue of life.

know what it is to be truly blessed. i am more wealthy than the richest man on earth.

[rocknrolla]

also righteousness does not require u to become destitute. just give what u can and that u dont need and what u can afford. this is how i did it.

[JoKeR1980]

all dat nice an d ting eh...but I didn't ask you all that



so.......you gonna give me your money or not?

I wanna help you achieve the highest level of spiritual wisdom EVURRR!!!

[marlener]

In response to your questions Duane,I have seen what the end results of an Muslim run/Islamic state entails.Any religious group that would forcefully through legislation enforce their beliefs I am against as it would result in the church and state becoming one which is something I am not in agreement with.Freedom of worship is what God wants so ANY religious group forming the ENTIRE government and doing this I would have a problem with.

[rocknrolla]

all dat nice an d ting eh...but I didn't ask you all that



so.......you gonna give me your money or not?

I wanna help you achieve the highest level of spiritual wisdom EVURRR!!!

u really are a joker. anyone demanding money to help someone attain matters of the spirit is. see how twisted ur logic is. i know what u getting at. but i wont answer till u ask the proper question.

[JoKeR1980]

all dat nice an d ting eh...but I didn't ask you all that



so.......you gonna give me your money or not?

I wanna help you achieve the highest level of spiritual wisdom EVURRR!!!

u really are a joker. anyone demanding money to help someone attain matters of the spirit is. see how twisted ur logic is. i know what u getting at. but i wont answer till u ask the proper question.

but...I'm just trying to help you on your way...

you apparently aren't serious about your spirituality

poser

[rocknrolla]

all dat nice an d ting eh...but I didn't ask you all that



so.......you gonna give me your money or not?

I wanna help you achieve the highest level of spiritual wisdom EVURRR!!!

u really are a joker. anyone demanding money to help someone attain matters of the spirit is. see how twisted ur logic is. i know what u getting at. but i wont answer till u ask the proper question.

but...I'm just trying to help you on your way...

you apparently aren't serious about your spirituality

poser

that makes soo much sense.

[JoKeR1980]

all dat nice an d ting eh...but I didn't ask you all that



so.......you gonna give me your money or not?

I wanna help you achieve the highest level of spiritual wisdom EVURRR!!!

u really are a joker. anyone demanding money to help someone attain matters of the spirit is. see how twisted ur logic is. i know what u getting at. but i wont answer till u ask the proper question.

but...I'm just trying to help you on your way...

you apparently aren't serious about your spirituality

poser

that makes soo much sense.

that's a yes then?

[rocknrolla]

all dat nice an d ting eh...but I didn't ask you all that



so.......you gonna give me your money or not?

I wanna help you achieve the highest level of spiritual wisdom EVURRR!!!

u really are a joker. anyone demanding money to help someone attain matters of the spirit is. see how twisted ur logic is. i know what u getting at. but i wont answer till u ask the proper question.

but...I'm just trying to help you on your way...

you apparently aren't serious about your spirituality

poser

that makes soo much sense.

that's a yes then?

if u want to take it as a yes, then that yes, is just as sincere as your promise to enhance my spirituality after payment.

[JoKeR1980]

all dat nice an d ting eh...but I didn't ask you all that



so.......you gonna give me your money or not?

I wanna help you achieve the highest level of spiritual wisdom EVURRR!!!

u really are a joker. anyone demanding money to help someone attain matters of the spirit is. see how twisted ur logic is. i know what u getting at. but i wont answer till u ask the proper question.

but...I'm just trying to help you on your way...

you apparently aren't serious about your spirituality

poser

that makes soo much sense.

that's a yes then?

if u want to take it as a yes, then that yes, is just as sincere as your promise to enhance my spirituality after payment.

so...you'd buy your way to higher spiritual levels?

wow....