The Religion Discussion

[Habit7]

There's lots of preachers in the religious classes persuading students to have faith that some bright and sunny day, abiogenesis will cease to be a philosophical fantastic dream and exist within the grasps of being testable and observable.

Nah, they just punt to panspermia, which I'm sure someone will find the imprints of the landing gear of the flying saucers that came that day.

[bluesclues]

So were you deluded?

not any more than you are

How would you know, if you are deluded?

First rid yourself of "faith"*

*what ever your meaning for it is in the context of you religious beliefs

faith is believing in Jesus' teachings and that they come from the Holy God.

"if you love me you will keep the commandments'

this does not mean store them on a piece of paper in your drawer, but in your heart. naturally someone who does not have faith will not endeavour to live the life instructed by Christ. and will only respect those commandments which they in their own wisdom agree with their sentiments.

[bluesclues]

You want yes and no answers from me but offer enough grey to make a politician blush.

I ask you to explain the salvation you experienced. My context is irrelevant, your experience is being questioned.

Well if that is how you experienced salvation then isn't it subjective and unique to you? According to the catholic catechism that is not how one become a catholic so I think your experience is insular.

How do you know that your answer is not part of your prior delusions?



This is how you answer questions without dodging

Habit can I ask you some questions. Simple yes or no unless otherwise specified would be good, just to help me understand your faith a little better.

1. Do you fear God?
2. Are there thoughts, words and actions that you avoid in order to not offend God?
3a. What are some things that you can do that you think God would see as perfect acts (i.e. nothing wrong with them)? b. If you believe this is not possible you can say so (this does not have to be yes or no)
4. Do you believe that God has the right to do whatever he wants to do with you?
5. Do you ever think that maybe God is wrong and you are correct?
6. Do you feel that you can be happy and complete without God?

1. Yes in one sense but no in another, see explanation here http://youtu.be/omPlyhmoUbw
2. Yes, they are what the Bible calls sins
3. None, all my righteous deeds are like a filthy garment before God (Isaiah 64:6)
4. Yes, Psalms 115:3 But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases. Daniel 4:35 ... But He does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of earth; And no one can ward off His hand or say to Him, ‘What have You done?’
5. No. I have to rely on autocorrect to spell properly and believe God created the universe but then think I am right and God is wrong, how preposterous!?! (corrected by autocorrect) Even if I believe that then I would be wrong again because if I believe in an omniscient being that can be wrong, therefore it is not God. The God of the bible “who is perfect in knowledge” (Job 37:16), and “knows everything” (1 John 3:20) is never wrong.
6. Yes. There are many ppl who receive happiness and completion in other religions, but the God of the bible offers that and more not just in the temporal sense but eternally. Furthermore He shows the reason why I don't experience it (my sin) what he has done to redeem from this loss (his work on the cross) and how I can glorify Him as God, which is not the ma-centered goal as just being happy and complete. Thus I can joyfully agree with the psalmist:
Whom have I in heaven but you?
And there is nothing upon earth that I desire besides you. My flesh and my heart may fail,
but God is the strength of my heart
and my portion for ever. (Ps. 73:25–26)

lawd, you cant achieve completion without salvation
completion is spiritual liberation. how they getting that from other religions and God not there as you say and those are false Gods.

the answer is No, you cannot feel complete without God. you will feel hollow. but you are born into hollowness so you wont know the difference between when your vessel is filled with the Holy Spirit and being Hollow until it happens. there is no delusion when this happens and all scientific investigation would uphold the claims of the spiritually liberated/complete.

[Slartibartfast]

Habit I can't and won't explain the "salvation" I experienced (using the meaning of the word in the context of how mecalli used it). That story is too personal and would need to be given in the form of a book of I were to go into sufficient detail. The best I can do on this forum is show that I have.

Habit I think you need to have s look at the website below.
http://www.helpguide.org/articles/abuse/domestic-violence-and-abuse.htm you need to know that your are not nothing without God and only you can get you out of an abusive relationship.

The worst if for children that have to live up to their parents living up to God. Really read through that website. You will see that subjecting children to religion is very abusive as well.

[Slartibartfast]

Oh and in terms of delusions, you and your book have to actually change the meaning of simple words just to stop from proving yourself wrong, let alone everyone else proving you wrong. How can you do that and claim to not be deluded?

The word I am talking about here is fear. Can you show me where the word fear is used outside of a religious context to mean "awe and wonder?" Why not just say "awe and wonder"?

[Habit7]

This is what salvation according the Bible is (I don’t know if mecalli will agree or not):

God is holy and perfect (Psalms 99:9), we are not (Eccl. 7:29). God is just and He will punish sin (Nahum 1:3). Therefore God's punishment abides over us as fallen sinful creatures (John 3:36). How can we be saved from this bondage of death (Romans 7:24)?
God entered into His creation as a man to redeem men, through His perfect life and sacrificial death (1 Corinthians 15:1-19). Therefore one must repent of their sins and trust in Christ alone for their salvation (Mark 1:15).
Therefore salvation is being saved from the wrath of God unto adoption as sons and daily being transformed with the evidence of good works and growth in holiness (James 2:14-26). No one can claim to be formerly saved because salvation is of the Lord (Jonah 2:9) and He who began a good work in you will complete it (Philippians 1:6). The truth that someone received salvation is that they continue to be saved (Romans 11:29, John 10:28, 1 John 2:19)

Now the salvation you claimed to have first was “a Catholic one” then you are now saying “I can't and won't explain the "salvation" I experienced.” I explained that Catholics cannot claimed to be saved http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articl ... ed-if-only and for further reference if a Catholic claims to be saved in the manner I laid out biblically above, then they would be anathema (damned) (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, Canon 9, 14 & 24).

Then if your salvation was “too personal and would need to be given in the form of a book” and you claimed to have “experienced the same delusions that you and others have sworn by” then quite possibly your salvation could have been a delusion unique to you, seeing that is was so personal and the fact that it doesn't agree with Roman Catholicism and even more importantly the Bible.

I believe you sincerely were brought up Roman Catholic home but in all honesty to them, you didn’t understand their doctrine thus you rejected the false idea you had and now you are projecting it on all religious beliefs. In a sense you were spiritually abused. Knowing that God is real but denying His existence is not the answer. I invite you to truly look at the word of the God of the Bible (not your uninformed opinion of it), read it, examine it, see if agrees with Catholicism or even me. Sincerely ask God to show himself to you. But if come to God proud, arrogant and offensive, He as the supreme being of the universe, worthy of your fear and adoration, will not give you an ear (Proverbs 3:34).

[Slartibartfast]

Actually it was when I started "understanding" the doctrine that I realised it was all bull$h!t. And im talking about after I started doing recommended reading and having discussions and attending QandA sessions with Bishops and Archbishops from around the world. I also gave the YouCat a read which was the Youth Cathecism prepared by Pope Benedict and Archbishops from around the world (only mentioning this because it is supposed to be a great quick reference on core beliefs in case others want to check it out). But I understand if you seem to know better than them. What are your qualifications again?

That is why I said to get rid of your delusion you must first give up your faith. I never said this will guarantee you will be free from delusion but I guarantee you cannot be free from delusion without it.

But at the end of the day man gives the bible the meaning he wants to give it and of all the interpretations that have existed since the dawn of time 6000 years ago I understand that yours is the only one that is correct. So please, do carry on.

[Habit7]

It is obvious that your past faith was a delusion, therefore to rid yourself of that delusion you had to get rid of your faith.

But faith is not delusional, you have faith that God doesn't exist, the universe created itself and life started from non-life. All these are faith claims with no empirical, observable, repeatable truth.

My Christian faith is trust in the evidence that our universe was designed and created, God specifically prophesied His entrance into mankind hundreds of years before and Jesus lived, died and was resurrected thus changing the history of mankind.

You misunderstood your Catholicism and think that everyone else misunderstands their religion as much as you did. You are just as susceptible of misunderstanding your atheism as well.

[meccalli]

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Man, in his own understanding will never grasp God's word.

[bluesclues]

Man, in his own understanding will never grasp God's word.

correct! and through faith in the advised practice, adopting it, and seeking the answers from God in prayer, whilst living by those adopted practices it is the claim that God will reward you with spiritual liberation. and from that level of attainment, you will be in a much better state to assess and understand the word of God as it is in all scripture and culture around the world. thus all unattained are mere scholars. prone to vague understanding and as a result vulnerable to incomplete perception forming bias(hardness of heart). when it happens and everything becomes clear you will see your previous self as a fool for not seeing how easy it was to understand all the time. in short, only those in communion with the Holy Spirit can make any statements of judgement. their counsel is the master of balance and a fair judge. not man. man's depth of perception is limited by how much he thinks is enough to see.

[Slartibartfast]

It is obvious that your past faith was a delusion, therefore to rid yourself of that delusion you had to get rid of your faith.

But faith is not delusional, you have faith that God doesn't exist, the universe created itself and life started from non-life. All these are faith claims with no empirical, observable, repeatable truth.

My Christian faith is trust in the evidence that our universe was designed and created, God specifically prophesied His entrance into mankind hundreds of years before and Jesus lived, died and was resurrected thus changing the history of mankind.

You misunderstood your Catholicism and think that everyone else misunderstands their religion as much as you did. You are just as susceptible of misunderstanding your atheism as well.

you clearly misunderstand what evidence is as well as what it is to be deluded
. Anyway we went through this already.

Tell me, how do you know you are not deluded? Keep in mind that your view clearly cannot be changed with evidence (or at the very least you choose the sliver of evidence that supports your claim and ignore the rest).

This on top of the fact that you relationship with your God is clearly an abusive one and you continue to worship him in the hope that you will be good enough when you die.

[Habit7]

You were the one that said you where once deluded, I asked you how you know you are still not deluded, you haven't answered yet. But you are asking me? I am not deluded because I never was before.

Give me proof that there is no God, that something can come from nothing (don't just say read Krauss), that life can come from non-life and my views can be changed. But so far reality is on my side.

The only abuse that is obvious is the one that resulted in the resentment of your catholic family upbringing and your effort at piety in the Catholic Church. Because you for some reason grew despondent of your religious efforts, which may be sincere but was fraught with inaccuracies about Catholicism and more importantly the Bible, therefore God doesn't exist. Your bad personal experiences in the past doesn't equate to bad experiences for everyone else. You sought for what you thought as God as a Catholic and didn't find him, I am telling you here seek Him out humbly in accordance to how He said you should in His Word, not the catholic church. If you refuse, fine. But that doesn't mean those who are doing the same thing you claim to have done so much are "insane," "deluded" and "abused."

[RBphoto]

God is probability.

[Slartibartfast]

You were the one that said you where once deluded, I asked you how you know you are still not deluded, you haven't answered yet. But you are asking me? I am not deluded because I never was before.

This argument makes no sense. I implied that a certain amount of delusion is needed in order to believe in God (specifically the God of the bible) and that I used to believe in that God (as you do) therefore, I must have been as deluded as you are. It is clear that you are just unable to notice your delusion.

Give me proof that there is no God, that something can come from nothing (don't just say read Krauss), that life can come from non-life and my views can be changed. But so far reality is on my side.

This was done already. Simply refusing evidence that you are unable or unwilling to understand does not make it non-existent. Yes there are some discrepancies and some things that cannot yet be explained, but the science is young. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence (yes this applies to my arguments against God as well but the concept of a Christian God has been disproved already)

EDIT: I made a mistake. It was not done already because it is impossible to prove the existence of something. This is expanded on in my next post.

Now I'll have to break up the lat paragraph because there is just too much nonsense in there to reply to at once

The only abuse that is obvious is the one that resulted in the resentment of your catholic family upbringing and your effort at piety in the Catholic Church.

Do explain (Please note I used the word "abuse" to mean "maltreatment")

Because you for some reason grew despondent of your religious efforts, which may be sincere but was fraught with inaccuracies about Catholicism and more importantly the Bible, therefore God doesn't exist.

Not according to the priests, bishops and archbishops that I conversed with as well as the text I referenced that is so simply written that not even you can misinterpret it (simple writing is most often the best writing and the hardest to produce. I specifically quoted the YouCat for you to have a look at if you are interested). So again, on what authority do you make the accusations that the Pope and all of the Archbishops, Bishops and priests below him are incorrect?

Your bad personal experiences in the past doesn't equate to bad experiences for everyone else.

This is correct. However, my experiences only acted as a catalyst. Truth is, my bad experiences actually led me to dig deeper into my faith until I started to actually understand the teachings and noped out.[/quote]

You sought for what you thought as God as a Catholic and didn't find him, I am telling you here seek Him out humbly in accordance to how He said you should in His Word, not the catholic church.

I found everything there was to find, of which God was not one of them. This interests me tho so I'll get back to this in a bit.

If you refuse, fine. But that doesn't mean those who are doing the same thing you claim to have done so much are "insane," "deluded" and "abused."

Yes, yes it does. How else can someone believe a made up story with more evidence against it that backing it up without being deluded (merriam-webster definition)

Now let's take a look at the concept of heaven and God. First I will need to know what your views are on the following (it can be Christian views or general views as long as they are views that you "know" to be true)
Assuming God made us, why did he make us?
What is God's purpose other than creating us?
Where are the places that one may go in the afterlife and what are the purposes of each of those places?

[Habit7]

In your personal view, religious ppl are deluded. You met your personal standard for delusion. I have not met mine, or any other governing authority standard of delusion.

There has never been in this thread any proof denying the existence of God, don't say it has been done already, quote somebody and prove me wrong.
You said that you are not deluded because you have rid yourself of faith. Yet you have faith in science resolving the discrepancies you see. Since you still have faith, then you are still del...

You claim to have a wealth of Catholic knowledge and experience but your knowledge of salvation is different than Catholic theology and your experience is so personal that it would take a book to explain. Your answers to the fundamental questions of the nature of your salvation and how should you proselytise is even inconsistent with the YOUCAT catechism you referenced.

If you want to disprove the God of the Bible, critique the Bible. Don't ask my views, my views don't determine whether or not God exists. Likewise your displeasure with the Catholic Church and scant knowledge of Bible doesn't determine whether or not God exists.


If you were once open to Catholic clergy then list to this former Jesuit priest who was stationed in T&T who like you grew despondent with the RC church but found true faith in Christ from reading and understanding the Bible.

[Slartibartfast]

You didn't mention how you are so sure that you are not deluded. Also, it is impossible to prove the non-existence of something. Therefore the burden is on you to prove the existence of God. However, all of your "proofs" for God so far have been justified by unwarranted assumptions, and most of these "proofs" were disproved and in a lot of cases you just tossed the evidence aside.

Now I never said I was not deluded. I just said you cannot hope to rid yourself of delusion if you hold on to faith. I will agree that because upwards of 99% of the world's population is unable to personally prove or experience the theories represented for themselves that on the surface it appears as though there must be faith placed in the scientists ability and honesty. And it would be so if it weren't (in part) for the scientific process where everything must be questioned, retested, peer reviewed and even then it will always remain open to scrutiny.

So in certain cases science can say "yes this is correct, gravity is 9.806 m/s^2 on earth" and in other cases science will say "All of the evidence points to this being the most likely scenario. We are 99.9% sure this is the case however there are still a few issues to iron out"

It is in the second case that topics such as evolution and the big bang theory fall. You just happen to pay attention to a 2000 year old book and preach that what has been proven 99% correct is 100% wrong.

So I agree that it is possible to be deluded by science. However, the science community does as much as it possibly can to reduce the likelihood of this happening (bar for profit research like in the drug industry etc.)

Now I also never claimed a wealth of Catholic knowledge. I claimed to have access to those with a wealth of knowledge. It was after understanding a certain amount (which was confirmed I had the correct understanding for) that I realised it made no sense. Sort of how we all know scientology is bull$h!t from the wikipedia page alone. Except instead of a wikipedia page I spent about 2 years just pursuing Catholic knowledge. That was also about half a decade ago so I have forgotten a lot of the information as I already deemed it as useless when I realised following the faith made no sense.

And lastly, a quick google search can disprove the God of the bible. But that will do no good as you have your own special interpretation. Your words have their own meanings. You use the same book as bluesclues and yet you don't want to even be associated with him. So to avoid pointless arguments of semantics I opt to use your definitions of the words and phrases in the context you provide them because it matters to you. To me all bull$h!t is the same, regardless of the unique flavour of the blend present.

Can't access youtube in work. If you can say you fully agree with everything this man says then I'll check it out.

[Habit7]

K

[Slartibartfast]

[RBphoto]

Lat two posts... easiest reads of this entire thread.

[DJ]

There has never been in this thread any proof denying the existence of God, don't say it has been done already, quote somebody and prove me wrong.

What BS is this? You forgot the MANY discussions regarding 'The Burden of proof'? You want some to prove that God does not exist? The burden of proof is on you my friend.

As simple example of this if you you dont understand is this:
Prove that the Flying Spagetti Monster does not exist.......then we will see. If you dont want to waste your time, leave the frikken thread with your BS. The bible is untrue, the Gita is true......

[RBphoto]

Heaven is a cold stainless steel cup of mauby with one block of ice, delivered to you right after you finished waxing your car on a hot, sunny Sunday afternoon.

[Habit7]

There has never been in this thread any proof denying the existence of God, don't say it has been done already, quote somebody and prove me wrong.

What BS is this? You forgot the MANY discussions regarding 'The Burden of proof'? You want some to prove that God does not exist? The burden of proof is on you my friend.

As simple example of this if you you dont understand is this:
Prove that the Flying Spagetti Monster does not exist.......then we will see. If you dont want to waste your time, leave the frikken thread with your BS. The bible is untrue, the Gita is true......

I know it is impossible to prove the non-existence of a being. I was challenging Slartibartfast who claimed that it was done before in the thread.

He later revised his claim by nullifying it.

Give me proof that there is no God, that something can come from nothing (don't just say read Krauss), that life can come from non-life and my views can be changed. But so far reality is on my side.

This was done already. Simply refusing evidence that you are unable or unwilling to understand does not make it non-existent. Yes there are some discrepancies and some things that cannot yet be explained, but the science is young. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence (yes this applies to my arguments against God as well but the concept of a Christian God has been disproved already)

EDIT: I made a mistake. It was not done already because it is impossible to prove the existence of something. This is expanded on in my next post.

BTW does the Gita claim to true?

[RBphoto]

Heaven is.. winning the battle with autoprune.

[RBphoto]

Heaven is... having a reliable Peugeot.

[MG Man]

Heaven is... having a reliable car to use when my Peugeot behaving French.

[RBphoto]

Heaven is... $15.00 two piece special today at Churches Chicken, and that establishment is right outside my office.

[Habit7]

Heaven is

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem,coming down out of heaven from God,prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more,neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Revelation 21:1-9

[RBphoto]

Heaven is..... fig talkarie made with green fig grown right outside your kitchen window and bud peeper growing from a crack in your concrete driveway.

[RBphoto]

Heaven is... Sada roti with cabbage and tomatoes ... washed down with company Folgers coffee.

[bluesclues]

Heaven is a cold stainless steel cup of mauby with one block of ice, delivered to you right after you finished waxing your car on a hot, sunny Sunday afternoon.

only if made from the mauby bark. concentrate is a false reality. a fool's paradise lol