The Religion Discussion

[_Kingfish_]

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[Duane 3NE 2NR]

The Quran states that the Quran, in by itself, is the most important miracle that Prophet Muhammad has brought to humanity.

The Bible also states that the Bible is the Word of God.

[RBphoto]

The Quran states that the Quran, in by itself, is the most important miracle that Prophet Muhammad has brought to humanity.

The Bible also states that the Bible is the Word of God.

Spongebob stated that he is a Goofy Goober.

[Habit7]

The Quran states that the Quran, in by itself, is the most important miracle that Prophet Muhammad has brought to humanity.

The Bible also states that the Bible is the Word of God.

Preach it Duane!

[RBphoto]

The Quran states that the Quran, in by itself, is the most important miracle that Prophet Muhammad has brought to humanity.

The Bible also states that the Bible is the Word of God.

Preach it Duane!

Islam states that it is a religion of peace

[Habit7]

The Quran states that the Quran, in by itself, is the most important miracle that Prophet Muhammad has brought to humanity.

The Bible also states that the Bible is the Word of God.

Preach it Duane!

Islam states that it is a religion of peace

Westernised Muslims on CNN and secular western leaders say that, the Quran however disagrees.

[bluesclues]

@leelad of course i can provide proof for everything ive said as it is available documented history. some still on stone tablets and heiroglyphs. could you tell me which things you require proof of specifically or most importantly? putting all the proof needed to backup everything ive said in my last post could produce a larger than acceptable wall of text for a forum.

do u mean for me to go through each of the miracles of the Quran and show them already having existed in egypt as knowledge from the mystical schools there?

i also wonder why Abraham had arab slaves. since slaves were usually slaves because they were further from God. on the surface, it would seem that hagar would have been a descendent of joktan. and just as i said, the blessing of prophethood was not also given to any of joktan's children. so when he died, they had to fall under the guidance of a prophet or may have become lost. and thus enslaved for straying from God to be servants of the Jews. same God then said he would let them form a nation but they would be wild donkeys of men in contention with the world. im again just pointing out, that God ordained the arabs to be this way as part of the plan. whether muhammad is right or wrong is not in question. he has done what he was supposed to do.. seen in evidence as it did happen and so must be the will of God. however, im just pointing out the position muslims hold and that it is not to be at war with Christians. but to stay in muslim run countries and never leave islam. there is a sort of dictatorial/political aspect revealed there. are any of the arab kings today also prophets? as i mentioned, this is a requirement to claim divine right to rule. blood descendence/lineage alone is not enough.

as we saw with jacob and esau. esau was firstborn. he thought he could do what he want and still get the blessing of prophethood from his father and God. but he had no time for God and liked to hang out at the tavern with whores. sure, he got a nation to rule, but jacob got the blessing of prophethood instead even though he was 2nd born because he lived to serve God. while esau had no time. the nation that esau possessed was later made barren and his people taken over and he was led to ruin.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

The Quran states that the Quran, in by itself, is the most important miracle that Prophet Muhammad has brought to humanity.

The Bible also states that the Bible is the Word of God.

Preach it Duane!

Islam states that it is a religion of peace

Westernised Muslims on CNN and secular western leaders say that, the Quran however disagrees.

when did Westernised Muslims on CNN say that?

[Habit7]

[_Kingfish_]

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[_Kingfish_]

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[ruffneck_12]

Can someone summarize what going on in here? People still quoting a book written by man as proof of god's existence?

I see the spongebob trailer but I believe in the absorption of the holy one since he rode the Hasselhoff. Are you a fellow Goofy Goober?

I am tho, death to the nonbelievers and those who worship the doodlebob

[bluesclues]

I asked for proof.....simple proof just a book, or a link to some scholarly work from a reputable source, talking about the "science" of the "aincients", and their knowledge on human development, formation of the universe, subatomic particles, black holes, pulsars, the water cycle and other such stuff talked about in the Qur'an with references to where their information comes from.

ok i will prepare this for you. the problem is that there isnt any ONE source that has published all of this knowledge in one location. so i will have to show you it from multiple verified sources and provide pictures of ancient writings/tablets where applicable.

Here are some verses from Al-E-Imran(chapter 3) directed to the people of the scriptures (Jews and Christians):

64. Say: "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but Allah, and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides Allah. Then, if they turn away, say: "Bear witness that we are Muslims."

here there is no division as Allah is definitely the same God of Christians and the older.. people of the Torah. we also agree that Allah has no partners to help HIM, but Allah himself says he sends the Holy Spirit as a helper to man!

65. O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Why do you dispute about Ibrahim (Abraham), while the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel) were not revealed till after him? Have you then no sense?

correct. the Torah which is the book of God's law in Israel for the Jews(people who followed God/Allah) was not written down until Moses it is claimed. however, if this were the case the Prophets before Moses were in contact with God and taught their children and their people Orally. however, as i mentioned. archaeological evidence shows that writing existed since before Moses and began in sumeria around 3500BC and before.
http://www.truthnet.org/Bible-Origins/4 ... e_written/

66. Verily, you are those who have disputed about that of which you have knowledge. Why do you then dispute concerning that which you have no knowledge? It is Allah Who knows, and you know not.

Muhammad says here that we dont know because we have no evidence and thus cannot prove a negative. however, this has now changed based on archaeological discoveries. some of which are mentioned in my link above.

67. Ibrahim (Abraham) was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was a true Muslim Hanifa (Islamic Monotheism - to worship none but Allah Alone) and he was not of Al-Mushrikun ( Polytheists, pagan, idolaters and disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah and His Messenger Muhammad).

the distinction here does as i have done. it separates Abraham from the Jews who made error because Abraham made no error and never made false Gods or idols etc. just as his descending line of prophets from him. neither of the prophets made error. but the people did. this is very important because it was also the People who attempted to judge Christ and did so wrongfully. The prophets of the Jews are noted as the first to present Monotheism and that of the One Invisible God. once we serve that God, we are muslim. As the word Muslim translated from Arabic means "One who submits to the One God". so let us not let translational issues separate us. and as mentioned to do so you must not reject any one of the prophets as all are from God and do not contradict eachother. Thus it is only later when Jews/muslims lost their way that they became pagans. we see a connection here between what i said about Muslim-moslem-moselem-Musalim as meaning the "Law of Moses". so Muslims obey the Law of Moses. and Jerusa-lem the "law of the Jews" or "teaching of the Jews" is the same.. the 10 commandments.

68. Verily, among mankind who have the best claim to Ibrahim (Abraham) are those who followed him, and this Prophet (Muhammad ) and those who have believed (Muslims). And Allah is the Wali (Protector and Helper) of the believers.

69. A party of the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) wish to lead you astray. But they shall not lead astray anyone except themselves, and they perceive not.

70. O people of the Scripture! (Jews and Christians): "Why do you disbelieve in the Ayat of Allah, [the Verses about Prophet Muhammad present in the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] while you (yourselves) bear witness (to their truth)."

71. O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): "Why do you mix truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know?"

see here in 70 and 71 we have another issue of misinterpretation.

70 refers to the Torah which is the Jewish scripture and the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John which make up part of the New Testament of the Christian bible. note, that both muslims and christians accept both the torah and the new testament(gospels) as part of God's Holy Instructions. having neglected none of the prophets of the One Invisible God.

71 is an address about a time when Muhammad did not take well to Christian symbolism. including that of the trinity. but as mentioned this was also the way of the ancients to summarize information with symbols. in fact it stems from the original languages of Hebrew and Aramaic. where the same issue u state is faced with reading the Quran in english as opposed to reading it in arabic. the Hebrew Torah(Jews) was written in hebrew and the same issue is found. meaning is lost in translation from hebrew to english. because Hebrew is a phonetic and symbolic language in itself. it's letters have both a numeric association AND a pictorial association. and sometimes depending on usage in a sentence can convey 2 different meanings. so it is also advised to read the old testament in it's original Hebrew. all this time Moses led people out of egypt, they were egyptians, and spoke hebrew there.

however, even though Muhammad does not take well to symbolism in his early writings, believing in a totally literal reading of scripture. it is that he is afraid for his people to fall to pagan ways through symbolism which has been used before. symbolism led many to believe they could sculpt their own gods out of clay, or gold, or adorn a tree with jewels and worship it directly as though it was God. people made error before in their interpretation of symbolic messages most likely due to not being fully initiated into the knowledge of scripture. The prophets did not make such error, they were the teachers of the nations. but Muhammad is still forced to use symbolism to relay his dream of his journey to Heaven on a Unicorn. the Unicorn is also an ancient symbol of mysticism. it is white to reflect purity and saintly/righteousness. it is winged because it is the VEHICLE of the spirit just as the winged disc of Egypt which transports man to Heaven in spirit. and it carries a spiral horn symbolising the spiral nature and design of the infinite universe which passes from the invisible, into the visible. the horn was at the center of the forehead between the brow where the vortex would appear when God took his prophets into heaven to provide them information to write down when they returned to earth.. such as Job. such is how the unicorn's meaning and symbol was devised. just like the symbol of the cross. alot of information is held in symbols as was from the Hebrew and Aramaic languages and symbolism acts as a summary of a great deal of knowledge to an initiated mystic.

later before he died, he came to understand symbolism. and this changed his mind to allow safe passage to the Christians in caliphate areas noting that they are truly not pagan in their ways. Christians were seen as Muslims who do not fight as commanded by their prophet(Jesus). so Muhammad commanded his people to fight FOR the Christians whenever they were in trouble. and even went so far as to say any Muslim(radical extremist) who acts against a Christian has transgressed Allah and that True Muslims should kill the muslim extremists to receive reward from Allah.

so remember that the word muslim, just like Jew has multiple meanings based on time period and usage.

Muslim can mean a pupil of islam. which is the selfish view that causes the interpretation that no other believer in the one God is a muslim

but Muslim translated in it's true meaning means Believer in the One invisible God and the prophets of God.

Thus as long as i believe in the One invisible God, his prophets from Adam to Jesus, and obey his law.. I am a Muslim.

so we must be careful we do not kill a true child of God, a messenger, or believer in God and the prophets. because it will surely bring us a great punishment, and Allah will lift up the ones who he knows were serving him when they were murdered.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Duane,
The following is a transcript of a talk given by Zakir Naik, this is just one mans interpretation of scripture and Quran, but quite a few Muslims tend to agree with him.

Many people have the misconception that Islam came into existence, and the founder of the religion of Islam was Prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him), 1400 years ago. In fact Islam is there in existence since time immemorial – since man set foot on the earth. And the Holy Qur’an says in Surah Fatir, Chapter 35, Verse No.24…(Arabic)…‘There is not a nation or a tribe to whom We have not sent a warner’. The Holy Qur’an says in Surah Rad, Chapter No.13, Verse No.7…(Arabic)…. ‘And to every nation have We sent a guide’. By name only 25 are mentioned in the Holy Qur’an – But our Prophet Muhammed (Salallahu Alaihi Wasallam) – he said that there were more than 124 thousand messengers sent on the face of the earth.

By name we know only 25, mentioned in the Holy Qur’an – Adam, Moses, Jesus, Solomon, Muhammed, (Peace be upon them all) – But there were more than one hundred and twenty four thousand messengers sent. Similarly by name we know only four Revelations of Allah Subhana Wa Taala, of Almighty God – the Torah, the Zabur, the Ingel and the Furqaan.

The Torah is the ‘Wahee’, ‘the Revelation’ which was given to Moses (Peace be upon him), Zabur is the ‘Wahee’, ‘the Revelation’ which was given to David (peace be upon him), Ingel is the ‘Wahee’ ‘the Revelation’ which was given to Jesus (Peace be upon him), and Furqaan, that’s ‘the Holy Qur’an’ is the last and final revelation which was given to the last and final messenger, Prophet Muhammed (Peace be upon him).

If you analyze that all the other Scriptures, – whether are they the word of God or not – Bible, can I say it’s the word of God or not? We believe in the Ingel, the ‘Wahee’ which was given to Isa Alaysalam – This Bible that the Christians have today, is not the ‘Wahee’ which we believe in. This Bible does contain the word of God – It also contains the word of Prophet, and also words of historians, as well as pornography. It is totally not the word of God – No wonder the Christian scholars, they are keeping on revising the Bible.

We believe in the original ‘Wahee’ given to Isa Alaysalam – But the present Bible is not the correct ‘Wahee’- It may contain part of the ‘Wahee’. How to check up, which part is true? – We have to check it with the ‘Furqaan’ – And the Furqaan is the Holy Qur’an.

Simlilarly, if you analyze all the messengers that were sent before Prophet Muhammed (Peace be upon him) – all the revelations that came before Holy Qur’an… all of these revelations and these messengers were only sent for their people and their message was supposed to be followed only for a particular limited time period. As the Holy Qur’an Says in Surah Al-Imran, Chapter No.3, V.49, that… ‘Isa Alysalaam – He was sent only for the Bani Israel’. The message is repeated in Surah Saff, Chapter No.61, Verse No.6… ‘that Isa Alysalam, the son of Mary was sent only for the Bani Israel… the children of Israel’. The same message is given in Bible in the Gospel of Mathew, Chapter No.10, Verse No.5 to 6, that Jesus Christ (Peace be upon him) tells his disciples that ‘go ye not into the way of the Gentiles’ Who are the Gentiles? The Non-Jews, the Hindus, the Muslims. ‘Go ye not into the way of the Gentiles, but rather go to lost sheep of the house of Israel’ – that means he was only sent for the house of Israel. Jesus Christ (Peace be upon him) said – It’s mentioned in the Gospel of Mathew, Chapter No.15 Verse No.24 that ‘I have not been sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel’. So all the messengers, and all the revelations – by name only four revelations are given in the Holy Qur’an.

But there were several revelations of Allah Subhana Wa Taala, like ‘Sugfe Ibrahim’ and various other Revelations. But all the revelations that came before the Holy Qur’an, and all the messengers that came before Prophet Muhammed (Peace be upon him) – they were only sent for their people and for a particular time period.

But our beloved Prophet Muhammed (Peace be upon him), the Holy Qur’an says in Surah Anbiya, Chapter 21, Verse No.107, it says… (Arabic)…. ‘That We have sent thee, not but as a mercy to the whole of humankind, as a mercy to all the worlds, as a mercy to all the creatures’. The Holy Qur’an says in Surah Saba, Chapter 34, Verse No.28 that …(Arabic)… That ‘We have sent thee not but as a universal messenger, giving glad tidings and warning them against sin – But most of the human kind yet do not know’. Similarly all the Religious scriptures that were sent by Allah Subhana Wa Taala, that came before the Qur’an, were only meant for that people, and for a particular time period. But the Holy Qur’an – it says in Surah Ibrahim, Chapter 14, Verse 52, as well as Surah Baqarah, Chapter 2 Verse 185, and Surah Al-Zumur, Chapter 39, Verse No.41, that it was sent for the whole of humanity.

Regarding the question – that are these Scriptures – the Vedas, the Bible, the Zend Avesta, the Dasatir, the Upanishads – are they the word of Almighty God? What I can say – that we believe in ‘Injil’ as the word of God – But the present Bible is not the word of God. Regarding Veda, Upanishad, Geeta, Zend Avesta, Dasatir, I can say – may be they were the word of God – May be. I cannot say for sure, since the Qur’an does not say that Vedas is the word of God – I cannot say for sure. I can only say ‘may be’ they were word of God. But even if they were the word of God, all the Scriptures besides the Holy Qur’an, have been changed by human beings – they have been corrupted.

As a famous critic of Islam, William Myore – He said 2 centuries before, that ‘the only Religious Scripture which has maintained its purity, is the Holy Qur’an for 12 centuries. William Myore, who is a very strong critic of Islam – he had – to agree that this Qur’an has maintained its original purity for 12 centuries – He said this 200 years before. So regarding the messengers, whether Ram…whether Ram whether Lakshman, all these, were they messengers of God or not? Jesus Christ (Peace be upon him) – he was – Because the Qur’an says. But the name of Ram and Buddha and Zorastras is not mentioned in the Qur’an – What I can say, ‘May be they were’ – I don’t know.

But even if they were, they were only meant for that time, and they were only supposed to be followed by that particular people. The Scriptures that came before the Qur’an, they were only meant for a particular group of people, and they were only meant to be followed till that time. So even if they were words of God – Even if the previous messengers were messengers of God – you only have to follow the last and final messenger – that is Prophet Muhammed (Peace be upon him).

Even if the other scriptures were the word of God, today you have to follow the last and final message of Allah Subhana Wa Taala, – that is the Holy Qur’an, and nothing else.

Regarding – can you be a Christian, Hindu, Muslim, – is it the same? No it is not the same. Why – Because if you analyze the Holy Qur’an says in Surah Al Imran, Ch. 3 V. No. 52, that Jesus (Peace be upon him), he was a Muslim. Same thing, as the Bible says in Gospel of John, Ch. 5, V. No. 30…‘I seek not my will, but the will of my Father’. If you translate into Arabic, ‘Not my will…God’s will’… It is nothing but Islam – He was a Muslim. Abraham (Peace be upon him) – the Holy Qur’an says in Surah Al Imran, Ch.3, V. 67… ‘He was not a Jew or a Christian – He was a Muslim’. So today, if you have to choose any Religion – the Holy Qur’an says in Surah Al Imran, Ch. 3, V. 19…(Arabic)… ‘The only Religion acceptable in the sight of Allah (swt), is Islam’. Though the other religions speak about Monotheism – only Monotheism is not sufficient. You have to believe in Tawheed – You have to do ‘Ibada’ of Allah (swt). That is why the Holy Qur’an repeats the message in the Surah Al Imran Ch. 3, V.No.85, that… ‘If anyone desires any other religion besides Islam… submitting will to Allah (swt) – it will not be accepted of him. And in the Hereafter, he will be among the losers’. Hope that answers the question.

Islam is a religion, which has over one billion adherents all over the world. Islam comes from the root word “salam” which means “peace” and Islam means “peace acquired by submission to the will of God”. Muslims accept the Qur’an, as the word of God revealed to His last and final prophet, Muhammad (peace be upon him). Islam states that Allah sent messengers and prophets throughout the ages with the message of Unity of God and accountability in the Hereafter. Islam thus makes it an article of faith to believe in all the earlier prophets, starting with Adam, and continuing with Noah, Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, John the Baptist and Jesus amongst many others (may peace be on them all).

Quote taken from Zakir Naik:
"By name we know only four Revelations of Allah Subhana Wa Taala, of Almighty God – the Torah, the Zabur, the Ingel and the Furqaan.

The Torah is the ‘Wahee’, ‘the Revelation’ which was given to Moses (Peace be upon him), Zabur is the ‘Wahee’, ‘the Revelation’ which was given to David (peace be upon him), Ingel is the ‘Wahee’ ‘the Revelation’ which was given to Jesus (Peace be upon him), and Furqaan, that’s ‘the Holy Qur’an’ is the last and final revelation which was given to the last and final messenger, Prophet Muhammed (Peace be upon him)."

ok I'm not sure the point you are bringing here

but the Bible clearly states that Jesus is the son of God and that the Holy Trinity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is God.

Also you stated "Islam is a religion, which has over one billion adherents all over the world." as part of your argument. I'm not sure why, because if we are checking numbers, Islam has 1.8 billion followers and Christianity has 2.2 billion followers.

[_Kingfish_]

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[meccalli]

that the Holy Trinity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is God.

Where does it state this? There is no such thing as trinity found in the Bible afaik.

[bluesclues]

that the Holy Trinity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is God.

Where does it state this? There is no such thing as trinity found in the Bible afaik.

correct. it was only used for teaching Christians the concept of God, and the position of the Holy Spirit and Christ in Divine Hierarchy. but also to define a universal code of 3 which can be found in the makeup of the universe. everything can be broken down into 3 major interacting elements. mind,body and spirit, positive negative and neutral, left right and center, solid liquid and gas. there's alot of groups of 3 that makeup from the smallest scale interaction to the largest in observed reality. and so 3 is considered a Holy number because of its power to fit in as an easy way of analysing our world at all different levels. 'as above, so below'

[meccalli]

Nope, its because of roman catholic pagan influence as seen in matthew.
The Catholic Encyclopedia, II, page 263:

"The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the second century."
Catholics wanted to influence pagans so they introduced polytheism.
Just as Muhammad in mecca wanted to influence Christians and Jews so he rejected al-ilah's other sons and daughters/gods/idols and influenced his converts that al-ilah/Sin (Sin /ˈsiːn/ (Akkadian: Su'en, Sîn) or Nanna (Sumerian: DŠEŠ.KI, DNANNA) was the god of the moon in the Mesopotamian mythology of Akkad, Assyria and Babylonia. ) was the only God.
Funny how people fail to realise the difference in status when muhammad was in mecca vs medina. In mecca, he said pray towards Jerusalem and your back to mecca. When he got rejected by the Christians to be a prophet and preaching peace to gain trust. He went to medina and said pray towards mecca and became violent and taught hatred towards them once he was in a place of power.

[MG Man]

Many races believe that the Universe was created by some sort of god or in the Big Bang. The Jatravartid people, however, believe that the Universe was sneezed out of the nose of a being called the Great Green Arkleseizure. They live in perpetual fear of the time they call "The Coming of the Great White Handkerchief".

[Habit7]

Nope, its because of roman catholic pagan influence as seen in matthew.
The Catholic Encyclopedia, II, page 263:

"The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the second century."
Catholics wanted to influence pagans so they introduced polytheism.

I believe this is the Catholic Encyclopaedia II https://ia902305.us.archive.org/4/items ... rbuoft.pdf

I can't seem to find your quote.

Furthermore while Roman Catholics may argue that their church began in 30 AD after the death and resurrection of Jesus, it is a vacuous claim as none of the distinctives of their church like the papacy, veneration of Mary, Mary as co-redemptrix, apostolic succession, confession of sin to a priest, purgatory, indulgences, or the equal authority of church tradition and Scripture were never present in the illegal persecuted church of the second century.

The doctrine of the Trinity is not based on Matt 28:19 solely. It is based on texts from the New and the Old Testament. It is a fundamental belief in Christian faith, and to deny it means you don't know God (1 John 5:10-12)

[meccalli]

There is no trinity doctrine, Acts 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. as the rest of scripture would indicate.
some copypasta
The Beginnings of Christianity: The Acts of the Apostles Volume 1, Prolegomena 1:

The Jewish Gentile, and Christian Backgrounds by F. J. Foakes Jackson and Kirsopp Lake 1979 version pages 335-337. "There is little doubt as to the sacramental nature of baptism by the middle of the first century in the circles represented by the Pauline Epistles, and it is indisputable in the second century. The problem is whether it can in this (Trinitarian) form be traced back to Jesus, and if not what light is thrown upon its history by the analysis of the synoptic Gospels and Acts.

According to Catholic teaching, (traditional Trinitarian) baptism was instituted by Jesus. It is easy to see how necessary this was for the belief in sacramental regeneration. Mysteries, or sacraments, were always the institution of the Lord of the cult; by them, and by them only, were its supernatural benefits obtained by the faithful. Nevertheless, if evidence counts for anything, few points in the problem of the Gospels are so clear as the improbability of this teaching.

The reason for this assertion is the absence of any mention of Christian baptism in Mark, Q, or the third Gospel, and the suspicious nature of the account of its institution in Matthew 28:19: "Go ye into all the world, and make disciples of all Gentiles (nations), baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit." It is not even certain whether this verse ought to be regarded as part of the genuine text of Matthew. No other text, indeed, is found in any extant manuscripts, in any language, but it is arguable that Justin Martyr, though he used the trine formula, did not find it in his text of the Gospels; Hermas seems to be unacquainted with it; the evidence of the Didache is ambiguous, and Eusebius habitually, though not invariably, quotes it in another form, "Go ye into all the world and make disciples of all the Gentiles in My Name."

No one acquainted with the facts of textual history and patristic evidence can doubt the tendency would have been to replace the Eusebian text (In My Name) by the ecclesiastical (Catholic Trinitarian) formula of baptism, so that transcriptional evidence" is certainly on the side of the text omitting baptism.

But it is unnecessary to discuss this point at length, because even if the ordinary (modern Trinity) text of Matthew 28:19 be sound it can not represent historical fact.

Would they have baptized, as Acts says that they did, and Paul seem to confirm the statement, in the name of the Lord Jesus if the Lord himself had commanded them to use the (Catholic Trinitarian) formula of the Church? On every point the evidence of Acts is convincing proof that the (Catholic) tradition embodied in Matthew 28:19 is a late (non-Scriptural Creed) and unhistorical.

Neither in the third gospel nor in Acts is there any reference to the (Catholic Trinitarian) Matthaean tradition, nor any mention of the institution of (Catholic Trinitarian) Christian baptism. Nevertheless, a little later in the narrative we find several references to baptism in water in the name of the Lord Jesus as part of recognized (Early) Christian practice. Thus we are faced by the problem of a Christian rite, not directly ascribed to Jesus, but assumed to be a universal (and original) practice. That it was so is confirmed by the Epistles, but the facts of importance are all contained in Acts."

Also in the same book on page 336 in the footnote number one, Professor Lake makes an astonishing discovery in the so-called Teaching or Didache. The Didache has an astonishing contradiction that is found in it. One passage refers to the necessity of baptism in the name of the Lord, which is Jesus the other famous passage teaches a Trinitarian Baptism. Lake raises the probability that the apocryphal Didache or the early Catholic Church Manual may have also been edited or changed to promote the later Trinitarian doctrine. It is a historical fact that the Catholic Church at one time baptized its converts in the name of Jesus but later changed to Trinity baptism.

"1. In the actual description of baptism in the Didache the trine (Trinity) formula is used; in the instructions for the Eucharist (communion) the condition for admission is baptism in the name of the Lord. It is obvious that in the case of an eleventh-century manuscript *the trine formula was almost certain to be inserted in the description of baptism, while the less usual formula had a chance of escaping notice when it was only used incidentally."

Guess which other verse is deemed as a later latin edit. 3 witnesses? scripture interprets scripture.Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 1 or 2 verses is hardly proof of something so important when the rest of the Bible echoes something differently. A triune god?..sounds like hinduism if you ask me.

[Habit7]

I cant tell where you begin and where cheap anti-trinitarian webpage ends. The same webpages that falsely quoting a book as I demonstrated before.

God is three persons, each person is fully God, God is one in essence. That is the succinct doctrine of the Trinity found throughout the Bible. Not only in Matt 29:18.

[_Kingfish_]

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[bluesclues]

Nope, its because of roman catholic pagan influence as seen in matthew.
The Catholic Encyclopedia, II, page 263:

"The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the second century."
Catholics wanted to influence pagans so they introduced polytheism.
Just as Muhammad in mecca wanted to influence Christians and Jews so he rejected al-ilah's other sons and daughters/gods/idols and influenced his converts that al-ilah/Sin (Sin /ˈsiːn/ (Akkadian: Su'en, Sîn) or Nanna (Sumerian: DŠEŠ.KI, DNANNA) was the god of the moon in the Mesopotamian mythology of Akkad, Assyria and Babylonia. ) was the only God.
Funny how people fail to realise the difference in status when muhammad was in mecca vs medina. In mecca, he said pray towards Jerusalem and your back to mecca. When he got rejected by the Christians to be a prophet and preaching peace to gain trust. He went to medina and said pray towards mecca and became violent and taught hatred towards them once he was in a place of power.

this is incorrect backward view. you are viewing history from today go backward. when you should make your starting point a primitive wild man who does not know God like the prophets, but live inear or in a nation ruled by a prophet. polytheism existed before the introduction of the one God. but it was never meant to be polytheism. polytheism was always symbolic. and represented the duality nature of existence just like the ying and yang. the Gods of polytheism were attributes of God that we can discern in nature and universal operations being personified for story telling. thus the teaching was meant to convey the message of the one invisible God. but did so by personifying his attributes into individual characters or lesser Gods/deities. this led some to believe that the statues themselves were God. the same exists today but in a different form. there is Allah/God and his angels(lesser Gods/divine creatures) with the various functions they provide, the hierarchy of diiferent types of angels, the Holy Spirit, all of which are invisible to the naked eyes. and then there are the prophets, saints etc who are living examples that we could witness with our naked eyes.

cross culture there is a central line that can be drawn to show the differences in the message or interpretation and translation are mainly culture specific. but the same. the difficulty is in conveying to early people's the concept of an invisible God. different methods have been used by the various cultures. who prophets did pass through. but the people at one point would become corrupted by rumor and creativity.

[3stagevtec]

California priest demands elementary kids confess to adultery, sodomy, premature sterilizations

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/02/california-priest-demands-elementary-kids-confess-to-adultery-sodomy-premature-sterilizations/

[RBphoto]

I cant tell where you begin and where cheap anti-trinitarian webpage ends. The same webpages that falsely quoting a book as I demonstrated before.

God is three persons, each person is fully God, God is one in essence. That is the succinct doctrine of the Trinity found throughout the Bible. Not only in Matt 29:18.

One is one and three make one.

[meccalli]

I cant tell where you begin and where cheap anti-trinitarian webpage ends. The same webpages that falsely quoting a book as I demonstrated before.

God is three persons, each person is fully God, God is one in essence. That is the succinct doctrine of the Trinity found throughout the Bible. Not only in Matt 29:18.

You're right, it's a misquote of the Britannica Encyclopedia.
The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, & Holy Ghost by the Catholic Church in the second century.
Britannica Encyclopedia
11TH edition, Vol 3, Pg 365-366

Here's page 263, which shows the examination of the passage,
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:Cath ... 2.djvu/309

"There has been a theological controversy over the question as to whether baptism in the name of Christ only was ever held vahd. Certain texts in the New Testament have given rise to this difficulty. Thus St. Paul (Acts, xix) commands some disciples at Ephesus to be baptized in Christ's name: "They were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus." In Acts, x, we read that St. Peter ordered others to be baptized "in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ ". Those who were converted by Philip (Acts, viii) "were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ ", and above all we have the explicit command of the Prince of the Apostles: "Be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins" (Acts, ii). Owing to these texts some theologians have held that the Apostles baptized in the name of Christ only."

Maybe these other sources got it wrong too.

"The formula used was 'in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ' or some synonymous phrase."
Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics (1951), II, 384, 389

Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible (1962), I, 351 "The evidence . . . suggests that baptism in early Christianity was administered not in the threefold name, but 'in the name of Jesus Christ' or 'in the name of the Lord Jesus."

Hastings's Dictionary of the Bible (1898), I, 241 "[One could conclude that] the original form of words was 'into the name of Jesus Christ' or 'the Lord Jesus.'"

The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge (1957), I, 435 "The New Testament knows only baptism in the name of Jesus."

Canney's Encyclopedia of Religions (1970), page 53 "Persons were baptized at first 'in the name of Jesus Christ' . . . or 'in the name of the Lord Jesus.'"

I start here..
Tertullian was the one who developed the trinity doctrine alongside the ecstatic pagan convert Montanus.
Tabbernee, William (2009), Prophets and Gravestones
Here we have some holy ghost ecstatic possessions happening with his buddy montanus. Last time I checked, God's spirit isn't a Ghost. You also find that link of cybele worship between islam and catholics.

Here's what Billy Graham had to say-
'Each is distinct from the others but never acts independently. They are one in nature and purpose. This mystery is called the doctrine of the Trinity, though that term is not used in the Bible. The teaching, however, is present in seed form in the Old Testament and is revealed explicitly in the New Testament. Note passages such as Matthew 28:19; John 10:30, 14:26; 2 Corinthians 13:14.

Our finite minds cannot understand or explain this mystery of God, which is nevertheless a fact. We must accept the truths found in the Word of God by faith even though we ourselves cannot comprehend them fully.'
mystery doctrine...nice.

Its because of this we end up with nuts like Benny Hinn who lets us in on a secret. Its not 3, there's 9 of em..

[Habit7]

I cant tell where you begin and where cheap anti-trinitarian webpage ends. The same webpages that falsely quoting a book as I demonstrated before.

God is three persons, each person is fully God, God is one in essence. That is the succinct doctrine of the Trinity found throughout the Bible. Not only in Matt 29:18.

One is one and three make one.

Three in person, one in essence. They are not the same.

[Habit7]

I start here..
Tertullian was the one who developed the trinity doctrine alongside the ecstatic pagan convert Montanus.
Tabbernee, William (2009), Prophets and Gravestones
Here we have some holy ghost ecstatic possessions happening with his buddy montanus. Last time I checked, God's spirit isn't a Ghost. You also find that link of cybele worship between islam and catholics.

http://www.trinituner.com/v3/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=267363&p=7157253#p7157175
Firstly Ghost in the Old English term Holy Ghost, doesn't mean phantasm, it is Old English for Spirit.

Secondly Tertullian lived 160-215 AD. These are some quotes (not from an encyclopaedia) I placed on tuner the last time someone came with a trumped up trinitarian claim.

The following quotes show that the doctrine of the Trinity was indeed alive-and-well before the Council of Nicea:

Polycarp (70-155/160). Bishop of Smyrna. Disciple of John the Apostle.

"O Lord God almighty... I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever" (n. 14, ed. Funk; PG 5.1040).

Justin Martyr (100?-165?). He was a Christian apologist and martyr.

"For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water" (First Apol., LXI).

Ignatius of Antioch (died 98/117). Bishop of Antioch. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

"In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever" (n. 7; PG 5.988).
"We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.' Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passable body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 1, p. 52, Ephesians 7.)

Irenaeus (115-190). As a boy he listened to Polycarp, the disciple of John. He became Bishop of Lyons.

"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: ...one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all...'" (Against Heresies X.l)

Tertullian (160-215). African apologist and theologian. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

"We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation... [which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit." (Adv. Prax. 23; PL 2.156-7).

Origen (185-254). Alexandrian theologian. Defended Christianity and wrote much about Christianity.

"If anyone would say that the Word of God or the Wisdom of God had a beginning, let him beware lest he direct his impiety rather against the unbegotten Father, since he denies that he was always Father, and that he has always begotten the Word, and that he always had wisdom in all previous times or ages or whatever can be imagined in priority... There can be no more ancient title of almighty God than that of Father, and it is through the Son that he is Father" (De Princ. 1.2.; PG 11.132).

"For if [the Holy Spirit were not eternally as He is, and had received knowledge at some time and then became the Holy Spirit] this were the case, the Holy Spirit would never be reckoned in the unity of the Trinity, i.e., along with the unchangeable Father and His Son, unless He had always been the Holy Spirit." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 4, p. 253, de Principiis, 1.111.4)

http://carm.org/early-trinitarian-quotes

The biblical doctrine of God being three in person, each person is fully God and God being one in essence, is taught throughout Bible.

It is not only based on Matt 28:19.

[meccalli]

Care to show that the Holy Spirit is one of those persons in scripture?
If I had to rely on men to dictate their interpretation of scripture to me, I would be stuck in the mud. God's word doesn't contradict itself. I grew up in a pentecostal church after hinduism believing in the trinity until I decided to stop listening to men and start listening to God's word, there's no proof for it in scripture. The ruach hakodesh is impersonal, a breath or pneuma(wind). Paul brings greetings in his letters in the name of the Father and the Son, Yehoshua. I think he forgot that other being.

kjv 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

niv 7 For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

I think something's up here.