The Religion Discussion

[Habit7]

The ruach hakodesh is impersonal, a breath or pneuma(wind). Paul brings greetings in his letters in the name of the Father and the Son, Yehoshua. I think he forgot that other being.

In Acts 5:3–4, Peter asks Ananias, “Why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit...? You have not lied to men but to God.” According to Peter’s words, to lie to the Holy Spirit is to lie to God. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 3:16, “Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?” God’s temple is the place where God himself dwells, which Paul explains by the fact that “God’s Spirit” dwells in it, thus apparently equating God’s Spirit with God himself.

David asks in Psalm 139:7–8, “Whither shall I go from your Spirit? Or whither shall I flee from your presence? If I ascend to heaven, you are there!” This passage attributes the divine characteristic of omnipresence to the Holy Spirit, something that is not true of any of God’s creatures. It seems that David is equating God’s Spirit with God’s presence. To go from God’s Spirit is to go from his presence, but if there is nowhere that David can flee from God’s Spirit, then he knows that wherever he goes he will have to say, “You are there.”

Paul attributes the divine characteristic of omniscience to the Holy Spirit in 1 Corinthians 2:10–11: “For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For what person knows a man’s thoughts except the spirit of the man which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God [Gk., literally “the things of God’] except the Spirit of God.”

Moreover, the activity of giving new birth to everyone who is born again is the work of the Holy Spirit. Jesus said, “unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, “You must be born anew”’ (John 3:5–7). But the work of giving new spiritual life to people when
they become Christians is something that only God can do (cf. 1 John 3:9, “born of God”). This passage therefore gives another indication that the Holy Spirit is fully God.

Systematic theology : an introduction to biblical doctrine: Grudem, 2000, p. 237

[meccalli]

1 Corinthians 12:16
And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

Joel 2:28
And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions.

John 3:8
The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

2 Corinthians 3:17
Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus.

Here you have a mix of many situations that describe the same in essence. As you can see Paul illustrating the use of personification in the case of an ear. You also see the holy spirit can be 'poured out.' Yes the omniscient presence of God is due to his spirit which can compared to the wind, this doesn't make his spirit a third and separate entity. The spirit brings conviction, Ananias and Saphira intently did this against the tug of Spirit convicting them of doing wrong. Paul attributes it by personification.

[Habit7]

1 Corinthians 12:16
You cant just find one instance of personification and apply it where ever you want irrespective of context and language. Furthermore, 1 Corinthians 12:12-31 is part of a teaching of unity and diversity of the body (the church). It explains that ears, eyes, feet and other body parts represents human members with the church being the body. Paul doesn't attribute personal attributes to body parts and leaves it there, unlike what is said of the Holy Spirit.

Joel 2:28
Jesus is poured out Isaiah 53:12, Paul is poured out Philippians 2:17 & 2 Timothy 4:6 and David is poured out Psalm 22:14. I guess you dont believe Jesus, Paul and David are real people then?

John 3:8
The unpredictability of people born again is like the wind. Not the Holy Spirit is like wind.

2 Corinthians 3:17
"The Lord is the Spirit" Amen!

1 Timothy 2:5
Amen, the Holy Spirit is not the mediator, Jesus is.


The Holy Spirit is eternal Hebrew 9:14, omnipotent Luke 1:35, omnipresent Psalm 139:7-10, will 1 Corinthians 12:11, loves Romans 15:30 and speaks Acts 8:29; 13:2.

The Holy Spirit is God. You need to repent and believe what the Bible says.

[meccalli]

Biblical commentary and interpretation isn't scripture.

You cant just find one instance of personification and apply it where ever you want irrespective of context and language.

Similarly, you cant throw one verse and commentary and expect it to prove the existence of some third god person.
The holy spirit is the spirit of YHVH.
Hear, O Israel: YHVH our God, YHVH is one.
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Psalm 110:1
YHVH said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies as a stool for your feet.”

Luke 4:18 /Isaiah 61:1
“The Spirit of YHVH is upon me, and because of this he has anointed me to preach The Good News to the poor; he has sent me to heal broken hearts and to proclaim liberty to captives, vision to the blind, and to restore the crushed with forgiveness,”
Since when did the spirit of YHVH become a third entity in this so called trinity. Our God is one God, and he has a son, Yehoshua to whom he has given all power and authority..it's simple.

As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

Acts-
I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.
Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.

We won't come to agreement on this, I was purposefully pulled away from this doctrine at a time when I was fasting and seeking after the gifts of the spirit as well as understanding of it and this knowledge was pretty much exploded on me, I thank God he opened my eyes to see all the traditions that men are stuck in because they liked to have their ears tickled and wrapped up in the issues of the world. No one believed in this doctrine more than me, it just isn't scripture.

[Habit7]

Do you believe Jesus is YHWH?

I didnt give you one verse and commentary, I gave you several verses

The Holy Spirit is eternal Hebrew 9:14, omnipotent Luke 1:35, omnipresent Psalm 139:7-10, will 1 Corinthians 12:11, loves Romans 15:30 and speaks Acts 8:29; 13:2.

In fact I can further say that the Holy Spirit is God Acts 5:3-4, Lord 2 Corinthians 3:18 and can be blasphemed Matthew 12:31.

Whether you like it or not, you are relying on men's interpretation of scripture to you. Firstly you are relying that your human interpretation is correct, then secondly you are relying that these other human authors of these websites and their material is correct. I have already proven that they quote incorrectly and that they use silly arguments like the Spirit being poured out is a personification of an inanimate object is woefully wrong and is said of Jesus, Paul and David. You would think that since God gives you personal revelation He would have pointed out these obvious errors before you posted them, but He didn't. You need to submit to his word and the teachers He has given you which are verified by His word.

You can fast and pray all you want, Roman Catholics, Mormons, Hindus, Muslims, etc all affirm their beliefs with fasting and prayer. Christians trust the Bible, not their own personal revelations.

[meccalli]

No, I believe YHVH is Yehoshua's father.(edit-I haven't actually come to a complete conclusion of this as far as names go, but the Father is God, he has a son and shares the same divine nature of his father as the only begotten son). I have found websites and people who share what I have found through reading the bible, I grew up in sunday school and services teaching the father,son and holy spirit since I was 7. I stopped trusting in man, and the spirit of God had his way in me teaching truth. It began when I realised what was being said didn't match scripture. You still haven't shown me where God is the Spirit equates a separate third entity. The spirit of God/ Holy spirit/ ruach hakodesh has no roots in scripture being some other being that exists independently. I have quoted pure scripture that is self explanatory detailing the nature of God, an entire book of eisegetical commentary and man's insight of a couple of verses cannot match unadulterated word.

and the teachers He has given you which are verified by His word.

Most of these teachers will preach about death and tell you that to be absent from the body is to be present with God after attaining doctor/ whatever degrees from international seminaries. Seminaries teach exactly that-hand me downs of preaching customs and beliefs. Fools leading fools in the traditions of men. Its a barrier so strong that people will read into scripture what others have preconceived and taught before. The apostles and disciples had no new testament, they had a torah, Paul understood all that he taught from it alone.
John 14:26
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything, and will cause you to remember everything I said to you.

[bluesclues]

habit7 your understanding of the trinity is basic at best. the both of allyuh will talk allyuhself in circles. i will explain the trinity in great depth later. saying 3 persons one God is what leads to the confusion anyway. the issue is about interpretation, depth of understanding, and duality of physical existence meeting as oneness in the spirit. yes 3 persons one God is a statement used to refer to a most basic explanation of the trinity concept. but it requires further teaching and understanding less u interpret it like a pagan. which muslims tend to have done.

but before i end this post i want to say that

Jesus.. IS NOT GOD
The Holy Spirit perfectly performs the will of God but also IS NOT God.
God alone is God.

this is how it is viewed from the physical plane with a duality consciousness. in physical perception all is separated as that is the nature of this world. all is corrupted with sin. nothing is perfect in this world.

In Spirit and the spiritual realm(heaven). ALL IS ONE. perfect.. complete. including the prophets, saints, angels.. all are ONE with God. meaning they perfectly perform the will of God knowledgeably, and willfully. they still ARE NOT GOD.

i grew up as a roman catholic. so please. let me explain the trinity properly. i will address the polytheism aspect and the universal application in one post. from you and meccali comments i obviously have to. so i will do it before i respond to leelad with the knowledge of egypt to get that dispute out of the way.

[meccalli]

blues, I don't think a self professed muslim as yourself has any business with explaining biblical theology.
Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

[bluesclues]

blues, I don't think a self professed muslim as yourself has any business with explaining biblical theology.
Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

you can think what you want. but my qualifications for explaining this are higher than you think. ur interpretations produces conflict and contradiction.

John5
17 But Jesus[i] answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I, too, am working.” 18 So the Jewish leaders[j] were trying all the harder to kill him, because he was not only breaking the Sabbath but was also calling God his own Father, thereby making himself equal to God.

The Authority of the Son
19 Jesus told them, “Truly, I tell all of you[k] emphatically, the Son can do nothing on his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing, What the Father does, the Son does likewise. 20 The Father loves the Son and shows him everything he is doing, and he will show him even greater actions than these, so that you may be amazed. 21 Just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to those he chooses. 22 The Father judges no one, but has given all authority to judge to the Son, 23 so that everyone may honor the Son as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

24 “Truly, I tell all of you[l] emphatically, whoever hears what I say and believes in the one who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged, but has passed from death to life.

Making it ABSOLUTELY CLEAR that Jesus is SENT BY GOD. and not God himself. he performs the perfect will of the Father GOD. and thus can be honoured as God because he is divine in nature. this is called spiritual oneness. obviously.. Jesus did not send himself, nor created the heavens and the earth. he.. just like the Holy Spirit, is an Agent that performs God's will perfectly. thus there is little to no distinction between Jesus, the Holy Spirit and God.. In Actions! in personas it is a completely different thing as they are individual entities.

[bluesclues]

the term mighty God refers to the status of prophets as lesser Gods under God. God considers his blessed children Gods. not the people.. the Prophets! yet God is the Supreme God over all of them. thus Jesus was the most Supreme Prophet and they were Mighty Men. thus he is the mightiest Prophet. King of Kings, because prophets were Kings and he is the most supreme Prophet!

not to mention.. u are taking the words of what PEOPLE will call him over what he calls himself. people can say all kinda thing in their misconceived and uneducated perspective of scripture. same way they misinterpreted polytheism and the trinity as well as stone statues. the prophets know exactly what everything mean and used the same teachings. it is the people who struggle with grasping the true message. always becoming confused and needing greater clarification.

[Habit7]

No, I believe YHVH is Yehoshua's father.(edit-I haven't actually come to a complete conclusion of this as far as names go, but the Father is God, he has a son and shares the same divine nature of his father as the only begotten son).

What you are saying here contradicts Isaiah 45:5 I am the Lord, and there is no other; besides Me there is no God.

If the Son is just some divine being then is Isaiah wrong?

I stopped trusting in man, and the spirit of God had his way in me teaching truth.

This is not true. You trust yourself, a man. And if the "Spirit of God" was leading in truth then why you posted a false quotation?

You still haven't shown me where God is the Spirit equates a separate third entity. The spirit of God/ Holy spirit/ ruach hakodesh has no roots in scripture being some other being that exists independently.

Acts 5:3-4 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”

Who was lied to, the Holy Spirit or God? (2 marks)

[bluesclues]

The Trinity

let us start with the facts so that we ensure there is no contradictions. There is only One invisible God Creator of Heaven and Earth. When God sends his Spirit to interact with man or nature on earth, this is revealed to us as The Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit, just like man is conscious and of the Will of God. because it is the pure fabric of Spirit and is not part flesh, it is the Perfect! will of God. Jesus is the Son of God, whom God created with his will. He is the second Adam, obedient to his father. Born in the Spirit and BY the Spirit of God. a Pure soul created by God to hold in a human vessel so that he could demonstrate the way of life God hopes for us to achieve as instructed by God. Thus already eternal, and granted eternal life by God, he performed the perfect will of God in his earthly tenure and he now resides in Heaven. where he is also above the Holy Angels. just as they were commanded to prostrate to Adam. Jesus in the flesh represented the highest attainment of spiritual existence that a man can possibly attain in this world.

The Trinity concept wrapped itself around these 3 figures or identities for interaction with God. Since Jesus performs the perfect will of God, everything he says and does is agreeable and truthful to God. The Spirit was with Jesus from his birth. And he Knew the Spirit. This makes these 3 - Creator, Spirit and Son the topmost aspect of God that can and have interacted with man. The Holy Spirit is spread out in existence and is the life that fills us. but it is not all of God. since God has many other attributes unknown and possibly unfathomable to man. so the Holy Spirit is NOT God because it is not ALL of God. God then, is The Spirit AND Other unknown things. but the Spirit is not God by itself. yet acting perfectly in the will of God.

So this shield of the trinity you see on wiki should now make more sense.


Jesus is a representation of God on earth. but not God maximally. God is even way more awesome! more awesome than flesh can contain. The Holy Spirit is an attribute of God which interacts and is the life force of existence, but even though it is not of the flesh, God is even greater still in his totality. God is the awesome power behind it all who created all these things and is infinite. that is to say.. God is greater than numbers of measurement can conceive. he has no "Total".

you literally have to be able to hold 2 concepts in your mind at once and break it down. like a pun, a word can be used to have 2 meanings.. metaphors and symbols are the same. once you apply the right meaning, you wont have any contradictions.

Trinity symbolism summarizes all this in saying 3 persons, one God. but you really have to understand all the 'persons' and the difference between person and action/function/fulfillment.

but you have to also know WHY this is even an important consideration. what is the big deal? why couldnt you just leave it out?

well because the Trinity has an even deeper meaning in mysticism associated with the number 3. all scriptures aim to and gain their longevity and validation from possessing universal knowledge. universal knowledge is knowledge, like equations, that can be factored into multiple if not all aspects of life and living to help in mastering our environment. like science. one of the most important messages is the duality nature of existence is in the nature of 3s. There is Good and there is Evil. both co-existing in this world. And we are in between it all with the responsibility of making the right CHOICE. many different philosophies aim at explaining the duality of existence because it acts as a way to find truth. and so all of them have a common factor of 3 elements. left, center, right. Good, Innocent, Evil. now you see what happens when you try to superimpose one philosophy that describes it from the perspective of man in the middle of good and evil. with the philosophy of innocence being in the middle of Good and evil?? on their own they can act as teaching philosophies to a certain people in a certain region and time period. that is the way they seem to best grasp the concept at the time. but now when you start to compare teachings of truth it seems to say "man is innocent" because he is in the middle where "innocence" is in another region's teaching. so it does not work that way and people come up with all sort of thought patterns off that and vere off the true doctrine ignoring how many contradictions arise from taking that approach. The fact is.. the 2 doctrines are trying to teach about there being 2 extremes and a center to everything. and that is how man sees the world. what could happen though.. is that "Man.. in making the right choices while between Good and Evil, can elevate to a point of "Innocence where he is neither Good nor Evil, yet both. so on Another LEVEL, man could be seen as innocent and ABOVE DUALITY. this is when God blesses you as you are declared sinless in the eyes of God.

The number 3 is further significant in just about every area of physical existence and systems of growth and evolution. 1 male and 1 female come together and make 1 child. Though they are 3 separate people, they make up 1 Family. so they are 3 in Person, 1 in Family. Water is seen as a spiritual substance and is used as a symbolic reference to spirit throughout many cultures. it is made of 1 Hydrogen atom and 2 Oxygen atoms. a total of 3 atoms. Holy Water embodies this duality explanation as well. in the church is is made from salt and water. the salt signifies solid matter/the flesh. the water signifies spirit. in chemistry when a solid and liquid are mixed in amounts relative to balanced molecular distribution and brought to a solution, it is said to be in "Equillibrium". The solution created is called Saline Solution. it is neither salt, nor is it water, but It is BOTH! Above duality. because all the atoms from both have joined with partners to form new molecules. so they are no longer individual atoms. everything can be divided into 3s. Hot,Cold and Neutral in between. two extremes and the center provide 3 separate entities, which all sit on the same rule. in a seesaw. extreme left, fulcrum, and extreme right. God is at the center. Above duality on the highest level. Center of the scales(seesaw) of Justice. so 3 is considered a holy number because of the application it carries with it as a universal equation. making it one of the most accurate ways to describe what we know about God from his revelations. so its "The Holy Trinity" because it is knowledge that came from God to Us, about him. as he presents himself to us in different forms.

The same is found in the sign of the Cross which i posted before. there is Lateral and Vertical. but in the center of the cross is the point of oneness between lateral and vertical. the center is the controller of both. but it is a symbol about the brain. so on the brain level it is about left and right hemispheres and center brain. and we want to center our thoughts on God because God is Center. and as egypt taught. the center-brain and parts that make up our center-brain are the most important areas pertaining to spirituality and prayer.

so you see how if people only get bits and pieces how easy it is for them to misinterpret. especially when doing comparative theology! The trinity like many major concepts in most teachings has many depths of perception. one perception may seem to contradict another perception or explained philosophy if you dont know how to apply it on another level.

So dont sound like a pagan and say the Son is God. Though you might understand what you mean. other people wont be holding the same picture in their mind. Christianity as it came from the Jews as is provided in the stories of the Old Testament/Torah is founded upon absolute Monotheism! There is only One God and he is invisible and infinite and created everything and everyone here. anything short of that is pagan. pagan meaning old or outdated conceptualization that can be misleading, or lead to misinterpretations. and thus to evil. many evil acts are committed in the name of scriptures because of misinterpretation. Re-interpretation is then necessary to define the lines of conduct.

a man may say "God said to kill and eat, so if i am starving i can go and kill someone on the street and rob them their valuables and money and go get something to eat in kfc". he needs clarity that that statement was in direct reference to animals, not humans. regarding Humans God has given us a specific commandment: Thou shalt not murder. so he cant commit to an act while that blatant contradiction staring him in the face. he must reconcile "Thou shalt not murder" and "Kill and eat" or he is surely in error.

[meccalli]

What you are saying here contradicts Isaiah 45:5 I am the Lord, and there is no other; besides Me there is no God.

If the Son is just some divine being then is Isaiah wrong?

The Son is the son of God there is no confusion. Yehoshua says the father and I are one and is always under subjection to him. They share the same nature above all creation, he is God's only son. The reason I state my doubts is because I can't be sure whether YHVH is a plural term and the voice of God in the OT was Yehoshua.
John 5:37
And the Father who sent me has himself testified about me. You people have never heard his voice nor seen his form at any time,

Yehoshua was subject to the Shema
Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

Rabbinical scholars say if you understand hebrew, there's enough in the first 3 chapters to study for a lifetime
Proverbs.
and if you look for it as for silver
and search for it as for hidden treasure,
5 then you will understand the fear of the Lord
and find the knowledge of God.
I'm just doing my best to get back to what God wants me to be in full understanding and truth.

Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

So I don't see the problem in asking God for revelation of his word. Its false to a trinitarian who believes in 3 divinities.
edit-1 Corinthians 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

[RBphoto]

I cant tell where you begin and where cheap anti-trinitarian webpage ends. The same webpages that falsely quoting a book as I demonstrated before.

God is three persons, each person is fully God, God is one in essence. That is the succinct doctrine of the Trinity found throughout the Bible. Not only in Matt 29:18.

One is one and three make one.

Three in person, one in essence. They are not the same.

Oh, so they stole the trinity from Hinduism with Bhrama, Vishnu and Shiva being the trinity, different aspects of god when they are needed at different times. And you guys say Hinduism hard to understand. Is the same damn thing.

[bluesclues]

I cant tell where you begin and where cheap anti-trinitarian webpage ends. The same webpages that falsely quoting a book as I demonstrated before.

God is three persons, each person is fully God, God is one in essence. That is the succinct doctrine of the Trinity found throughout the Bible. Not only in Matt 29:18.

One is one and three make one.

Three in person, one in essence. They are not the same.

Oh, so they stole the trinity from Hinduism with Bhrama, Vishnu and Shiva being the trinity, different aspects of god when they are needed at different times. And you guys say Hinduism hard to understand. Is the same damn thing.

they did not steal anything. egypt had it's form of the trinity, so did babylon and sumeria. there was Ra the sun God, God of creation, light and energy. Isis Goddess of fertility, life and procreation(Holy Spirit). and Osiris, the Son who conquered death as horus. then the Son was anchored on the Created Sun for the physical level. being a representation of the creation of the physical world and man in the flesh. thus the egyptians worshiped the Son, not the sun. and owed their existence to the God and creator of the Sun.

notice how close Isa(jesus in arabic) is to the word isis. and the adoration of the magi or 3 wise men pertains to the celebration of the birth of Osiris in egypt. isa then can mean son of isis. so there is an egyptian parallel between Osiris and Jesus.

the trinity as i explained is a universal concept for teaching the recognized ATRRIBUTES of God. the attributes were personified in teachings, since they are conscious as the Spirit. since it is universal it can fit into alot of different perspectives for explanation. and so in egypt as well there were other 'trinities' as the groupings of 3s were used to disseminate information on the major attributes of God.

trinity style teachings existed before as well in sumeria and babylon. and all ppl of all races passed through these areas at one point before settling with the nations as they are today. this is why the trinity was brought forward by multiple cultures.

in hinduism today u also have sects that differ among their belief and acceptance of the trinity because different people understand it at different levels. and as shown superimposing different levels on eachother leads to confusion.. just as superimposing one culture's way of identifying the 3 major aspects of God unto another culture can be confusing as they dont line up. not because they are wrong. but because the way we perceive leads our interpretation. so each culture has their way of perceiving that which has many ways of being perceived.

in hinduism the trimurti defines Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva as part of a trinity teaching. Brahma Creates, Vishnu maintains what Brahma creates, and Shiva destroys what Brahma intends to destroy or Re-make. all are ATTRIBUTES of the One God. the same concept applies. there are 2 extremes and 1 center. creation and destruction make up the extremes, and vishnu God of preservation makes up the center.. on that level. so theyve just identified the attributes of God from a different perspective. not from the perspective of father, mother and son. the cycle of creation, sustenance and destruction is actually part of one continuous cycle of life. all things begin, endure/change and then end in this world. unlike God who is without beginning or end. the cycles repeat infinitely.

thus the trinity isnt a teaching of 3 Gods in one. again it is attributes of God which are revealed to us in action that we give titles for identification purposes. but those neither one alone make up the totality of God himself. God is greater still. this appears to be the method of the ancient prophets and priests in the early days. to personify attributes of God so people can get a better idea of what God is and how he interacts in their lives. it isnt pagan except when you try to superimpose trinities across cultures and try to apply them in the same way. the major teaching of the trinity really is that we find 3 main aspects or qualities that can be grouped together in ALL THINGS. far east, and far west, and middleeast(center). body, mind and spirit. water, air and vaccuum space. it goes on. all are viable ways for describing minute observable aspects of God's interaction with humans.

look at if you try to superimpose the egyptian trinity with the christian trinity. on the surface level we have divine father, divine mother and son. but the anchor between the 2 philosophies is the Mother, who seems to hold the same position as the Holy Spirit. So did God mate with the Holy Spirit to create Jesus? metaphorically yes, but in reality.. NO. because we know that God is one and infinite with many unknown attributes, it is basically not possible for humans to know ALL OF GOD. so we refer to God by that which we know of him.

so nothing is stolen. there are just different ways to teach the same thing. it is not polytheism. it is one God divided because as humans we have no choice. we exist in a dualistic existence where everything appears to be separate. and in our ignorance there is no other way for us to learn. we have to be taught. and to teach we have to break things down into personifications, metaphors and symbols because that is how humans learn.

and again if you superimpose the trinity as meaning attributes of God unto Christian trinity you might come up with the view that Jesus is God because he is a manifestation/attribute of God. however this is cleared up by recognizing that ALL of God could not be contained in physicality/flesh. so at best Jesus can only be Part of God. much like our children are part of us.. possessing some of our genetic code. half from mother and half from father uniting to form the child. and we looked at the mother, father, son trinity above which clears up any misconceptions gained from superimposing Mary as the Holy Spirit, though she can be superimposed as Isis, who carries the attribute of life giving through fertility and procreation which are attributes of the Holy Spirit. the Holy Spirit is invisible and not made of flesh.

the trinity is just one of those things that will not go away. it upholds and re-demonstrates itself constantly as being valid however, different perceptions and levels lead to confusion when attempted to be superimposed on one another.

[Habit7]

So I don't see the problem in asking God for revelation of his word. Its false to a trinitarian who believes in 3 divinities.
edit-1 Corinthians 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

In John 20:28 Thomas affirmed Jesus as being both Lord and God. You cannot claim doubt while making emphatic statements about the doctrine of the Trinity.

To state that the Father is God and the Son is another divine being is heresy (Isaiah 45:5)
To state that the Holy Spirit is not God but a force or wind is heresy (2 Corinthians 3:18)

Muhammed, Joseph Smith, Charles Taze Russell, Ellen G. White and even Benny Hinn who you mention before, all claimed to have received revelation from God. All their revelation did not agree with the bible, and all taught heresy. You claim not to trust man yet you trust rabbinical scholars and yourself. Trust in the bible, not on personal revelation. PM me if you wanna talk more.

[RBphoto]

Trinity= Triangle= Illuminati... BOOM!

[Habit7]

Oh, so they stole the trinity from Hinduism with Bhrama, Vishnu and Shiva being the trinity, different aspects of god when they are needed at different times. And you guys say Hinduism hard to understand. Is the same damn thing.

No

*bubble burst*

Hinduism’s Many Gods
Published: Thursday, September 13, 2012
Sat Maharaj



The 7th Annual Hindu Mandir Executives’ Conference was held in San Jose California, USA on August 17—19, 2012. Out of this conference many Hindu publications have emerged. In one publication Mandir Vani, (The Voice of Hindu Temples,) the message of the Maha Sabha of T&T is published. It reads: “A temple is not a building. It is the abode of the Lord. A temple’s strength is not in the bricks. Its fortitude comes from the dedication of its members. A temple is not held together by plaster and mud. Its glue is the piety and devotion of the community. A temple is not simply a place we visit. It should be the axis around which our lives revolve,” wrote Swami Chidananda Saraswati.

“By coming together and working together to ensure that programmes are implemented within the temples and also between/amongst the temples for the youth, you will bring even greater benefit to all Hindus living in the USA. “Creating an environment where the youth understand, appreciate and love their Hindu culture is a crucial need today, as is uniting all Hindu temples under one umbrella. When we are all united in the name of Sanatan Dharma, we can truly bring the message of peace, harmony and universal brotherhood to the world.”

Many aspects of Hinduism seem to confuse the average westerner who is steeped in the Christian traditions. The conference provided answers to some of these questions and we produce hereunder answers to the perception that there are numerous Gods in Hinduism: “Hindus believe in one Supreme God who created the universe. He is all-pervasive. He created many Gods, highly advanced spiritual beings, to be His helpers.

Contrary to prevailing misconceptions, Hindus all worship a one Supreme Being, though by different names. This is because the peoples of India with different languages and cultures have understood the one God in their own distinct way. Through history there arose four principal Hindu denominations—Saivism, Shaktism, Vaishnavism and Smartism. For Saivites, God is Siva. For Shaktas, Goddess Shakti is supreme. For Vaishnavites, Lord Vishnu is God. For Smartas—who see all Deities as reflections of the One God—the choice of Deity is left to the devotee.

This liberal Smarta perspective is well known, but it is not the prevailing Hindu view. Due to this diversity, Hindus are profoundly tolerant of other religions, respecting the fact that each has its own pathway to the one God. One of the unique understandings in Hinduism is that God is not far away, living in a remote heaven, but is inside each and every soul, in the heart and consciousness, waiting to be discovered. This knowing that God is always with us gives us hope and courage. Knowing the One Great God in this intimate and experiential way is the goal of Hindus spiritually.

Hinduism is both monotheistic and henotheistic. Hindus were never polytheistic, in the sense that there are many equal Gods. Henotheism (literally “one God”) better defines the Hindu view. It means the worship of one God without denying the existence of other Gods.

We Hindus believe in the one all-pervasive God who energises the entire universe. We can see Him in the light shining out of the eyes of humans and all creatures. This view of God as existing in and giving life to all things is called panentheism. It is different from pantheism, which is the belief that God is the natural universe and nothing more.

It is also different from strict theism which says God is only above the world, apart and transcendent. Panentheism is an all-encompassing concept. It says that God is both in the world and beyond it, both immanent and transcendent. That is the highest Hindu view.

Hindus also believe in many Gods who perform various functions, like executives in a large corporation. These should not be confused with the Supreme God. These Divinities are highly advanced beings who have specific duties and powers—not unlike the heavenly spirits, overlords or archangels revered in other faiths. Each denomination worships the Supreme God and its own pantheon of divine beings.

What is sometimes confusing to non-Hindus is that Hindus of various sects may call the one God by many different names, according to their denomination or regional tradition. Truth for the Hindu has many names, but that does not make for many truths. Hinduism gives us the freedom to approach God in our own way, encouraging a multiplicity of paths, not asking for conformity to just one.

There is much confusion about this subject, even among Hindus. Learn the right terms and the subtle differences in them, and you can explain the profound ways Hindus look at divinity. Others will be delighted with the richness of the Indian concepts of God.

You may wish to mention that some Hindus believe only in the formless Absolute Reality as God. Others believe in God as personal Lord and Creator. This freedom makes the understanding of God in Hinduism, the oldest living religion, the richest in all of earth’s existing faiths.”

Satnarayan Maharaj
Secretary General
Sanatan Dharma Maha Sabha

http://www.guardian.co.tt/columnist/201 ... -many-gods

Uncle Sat explains it well

But henotheism is still irreconcilable with:

Isaiah 45:5 "I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God"
Can a Hindu say the Bible is right when it says this?

[meccalli]

John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

1 Corinthians 11:3
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

The scriptures are there and they are bold and plain, there's no need to expound upon them. I haven't resorted to any commentary, just pure scripture.

[RBphoto]

John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not;

Rowley said....*Internet disconnects*

[Habit7]

John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

1 Corinthians 11:3
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

The scriptures are there and they are bold and plain, there's no need to expound upon them. I haven't resorted to any commentary, just pure scripture.

Yeah because if you expound on them you will just repeat your heresy. Those scriptures are consistent with Trinitarian doctrine that within the Godhead their is a hierarchy. However, for you Jesus has to be some other deity which contradicts Isaiah 45:5.

Nevertheless if you want no commentary version then:
Philippians 2:5-11
Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

[meccalli]

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Same as before, no commentary needed, it's plain and the same thing I've been saying all along. Yehoshua shares the same nature of his father as God, He has taken upon himself to do that which was necessary through love and the Father has exalted him to his right hand. Unless, you're reading this scripture that Jesus was God, became flesh, died and exalted himself as God. God exalted God? It's clearly seen that Yehoshua admires his father, considers himself not equal to him unlike satan who sought to take his throne through pride.

Yehoshua says it himself, "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. If the word, was the voice of YHVH in the old testament that revealed isa 45, what's the problem with him saying it again here. There is no contradiction. It's the word of God speaking directly which he said before.
This was about the trinity, If the spirit is the Lord, there is One Lord and One God, where's your third entity in your hierarchy. The holy spirit is the spirit of God, it is part of himself. There is no other than the father and the son who are of one spirit.
Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist--denying the Father and the Son. One God and one Son of God.

[bluesclues]

To state that the Father is God and the Son is another divine being is heresy (Isaiah 45:5)
To state that the Holy Spirit is not God but a force or wind is heresy (2 Corinthians 3:18)

what crap is this?

Isaiah 45 International Standard Version (ISV)

Cyrus: God’s Deliverer
45 This is what the Lord says to his anointed, Cyrus,
whose right hand I have grasped
to subdue nations before him,
as I strip kings of their armor,[a]
to open doors[b] before him
and gates that cannot keep closed:
2 “I myself will go before you,
and he[c] will make the mountains[d] level;
I’ll shatter bronze doors
and cut through iron bars.
3 I’ll give you concealed treasures[e]
and riches hidden in secret places,
so that you’ll know that it is I, the Lord,
the God of Israel, who calls you by name.
4 For the sake of Jacob my servant,
Israel[f] my chosen,
I’ve called you,
and he has established you with a name,[g]
although you have not acknowledged me.
5 I am the Lord, and there is no other besides me:
and there are no gods.[h]

This is God speaking to Cyrus the Great. Isaiah 45:5 clearly states I am the Lord and there is no other besides me. where are you getting this nonsense from? the only reason you can pray to Jesus is because as God's divine Son he is given the position by God of being a Saviour to man. and thus can interject on your behalf at judgement. this interjection begins with the fact that all who believe in him as a prophet and son of God who came and died for their sins and obey his teachings as they come from God can be saved. but you MUST Obey his teachings. you must live the way of life.

2 CORINTHIANS 3

17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Lord’s Spirit is, there is freedom. 18 As all of us reflect the glory of the Lord with unveiled faces, we are becoming more like him with ever-increasing glory by the Lord’s Spirit.

if you use the explanations provided you will understand why the Spirit is God, yet isnt God because it is not ALL OF GOD. Only One manifestation. The spirit is God because it performs the will of God. but is not God because it is WILLED BY GOD. is your hand you? if i see your hand have i seen YOU? no. i have seen your hand! your hand performs your will. but it is not YOU! only an attribute or PART of you.

Jesus in Spirit exists aside God in Heaven. Thus he is another entity. get that straight. God created the heavens and the earth. He also created Jesus. Jesus did not create the Heavens and the earth. Jesus is NOT GOD. but a representative of God on earth. just like the prophets. except he is more pure than them as they have all gotten their seed from man and woman. Jesus was formed out of God's construction placed into a woman's womb.

[Habit7]

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God

It's clearly seen that Yehoshua admires his father, considers himself not equal to him unlike satan who sought to take his throne through pride.

You are contradicting Scripture.
John 5:18
For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

God exalted God?

Yes. If God exalts anything thing else it would be an idol, inconsistent with His word.

[bluesclues]

look at it. Alexander the Great(Cyrus) conquered Egypt and was of the Greeks. He conquered africa, the middleeast and asia. look what God has to say about him.

God will Bless Cyrus
13 “I have aroused him[v] in righteousness,
and I’ll make all his pathways smooth.
It is he who will rebuild my city
and set my exiles free,
but not for a price nor reward, ”
says the Lord of the Heavenly Armies.
14 This is what the Lord says:
“The wealth of Egypt, and the merchandise of Ethiopia,
those[w] Sabeans, men of great heights.[x]
They’ll come over to you and will be yours;
They’ll trudge behind you—
coming over in chains, they’ll bow down to you.
They’ll plead with you,
‘Surely God is in you;
and there is no other God at all.’”

See God has claimed responsibility for Cyrus the Great conquest over egypt. the greeks were conquered later with their polytheistic method of ascribing the image of God, almost parallel with the Egyptians whom Cyrus was also a student of Aristotle. when the romans conquered the greeks and formed the greco-roman empire, polytheism was still used to describe the One invisible God who led Cyrus. who also is the God of Egypt. are you seeing what going on here? None of the polytheist "Gods" are God. only concepts used to describe attributes of God and personified. when people start to believe any of those from statues to individuals were God himself is when they became pagan. The prophets of course would not make this error. they knew what was being taught. but what was being understood by the people was subject to change by individual interpretations.

The romans carried on polytheism by transcribing the Gods to Heavenly bodies(planets in our solar system and astrology) as an extension of Egypt's SUN GOD RA. because "Heaven" is used to mean 2 things. The word Heaven is primarily the Spiritual plane. but is also used symbolically to refer to the sky and beyond into space. The teachings of egypt nor Greeks was lost. it was incorporated. re-interpreted. described from another perspective to avoid misleading interpretation. the whole nature of being classed as a pagan is when people stop Obeying God's word. when people start making the choice to support evil selfishly ignoring God they become pagan. because their interpretation led them to do the wrong thing. The rituals associated with sacrificing to the Gods are all also symbolic. The whole theme of sacrifice from animals to fasting is about sacrificing sin, or guilty pleasures. to make the choice to resist temptation to things that stagnate spiritual growth. always seeking growth and expansion to become aware of the Spirit. These ritual symbols only symbolize what we are really supposed to do. innocence was sacrificed(virgins, babies) in early primitive cultures because innocence is the only valid offering to God. The message that is carried in the ritual is more important than performing the ritual. again.. demonstrating how people can become pagan. by perform rituals without devotion to God it is to perform them IN VAIN. THE DEVOTION to God is MORE IMPORTANT than performing the ritual.

"Rend your hearts and not your garment". serving God isnt about being the best dressed in church. Worshiping God in fancy clothes makes no difference to him from worshiping him naked. performing the ritual of tearing your garment to show despair when not truly feeling despair is pagan/Vain/fallacy. if your heart not with it then you not performing the ritual as a proper service. which singles out 'Heart' as the most important aspect of worshiping and serving God. and if you serving God with Heart/full devotion.. then even the ritual becomes unecessary. which is the goal. the rituals are used for teaching a viewpoint. the rituals do not actually serve God. you serve God with you Body, Mind and Soul. that is, through your actions, your choices and your devotion to God in everyday living. not just when you go to church.

[meccalli]

Yes they accused him of blasphemy, you're saying his own words which are final contradict scripture?
He may be equal to his his father but he obviously places himself under submission multiple times.
You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. The Lords word's aren't good enough?

[bluesclues]

You are contradicting Scripture.
John 5:18
For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

you are contradicting Jesus!

John 10
31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?” 33 The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.” 34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken— 36 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; 38 but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.”

Jesus Quotes HIMSELF saying "I am the Son of God!"

the Son. not God. the Son.

he is one with God in Spirit. as that which unifies him with God. he is a spiritual being that is housed in a vessel of flesh. the flesh is NOT God. you cannot worship the flesh as God. it is a created thing. The Spirit of Christ, which is one with God.. is another matter.

Duality, logic is anchored on creativity, and creativity is anchored on logic. but both are anchored on Spirit. so we have logic(physical), illogic(creativity/emotion) and Spirit which sits at the center and above both of them. so to form reality, spirit has divided itself into logic and emotion through conscious creation to form reality and give life to individual entities. all are fed by the Spirit just like the Oceans feed all the earth but have different names even though they make up basically one body of water that surrounds all land mass. is the indian ocean separate from the pacific ocean? and the atlantic ocean separate from the caribbean sea? no. they are divided attributes of THE OCEAN. but a rock, can be separate from another rock because it is physically divided by space. yet in the backdrop, the spirit of God is what creates and sustains all created things. INCLUDING what we call Empty Space. so in that backdrop.. all is one. even though we see 2 separate rocks, items, or people in physical existence.

[Slartibartfast]

Problems agreeing on what the absolute word of Gid says?

[rspann]

look at it. Alexander the Great(Cyrus) conquered Egypt and was of the Greeks. He conquered africa, the middleeast and asia. look what God has to say about him.

God will Bless Cyrus
13 “I have aroused him[v] in righteousness,
and I’ll make all his pathways smooth.
It is he who will rebuild my city
and set my exiles free,
but not for a price nor reward, ”
says the Lord of the Heavenly Armies.
14 This is what the Lord says:
“The wealth of Egypt, and the merchandise of Ethiopia,
those[w] Sabeans, men of great heights.[x]
They’ll come over to you and will be yours;
They’ll trudge behind you—
coming over in chains, they’ll bow down to you.
They’ll plead with you,
‘Surely God is in you;
and there is no other God at all.’”

See God has claimed responsibility for Cyrus the Great conquest over egypt. the greeks were conquered later with their polytheistic method of ascribing the image of God, almost parallel with the Egyptians whom Cyrus was also a student of Aristotle. when the romans conquered the greeks and formed the greco-roman empire, polytheism was still used to describe the One invisible God who led Cyrus. who also is the God of Egypt. are you seeing what going on here? None of the polytheist "Gods" are God. only concepts used to describe attributes of God and personified. when people start to believe any of those from statues to individuals were God himself is when they became pagan. The prophets of course would not make this error. they knew what was being taught. but what was being understood by the people was subject to change by individual interpretations.

The romans carried on polytheism by transcribing the Gods to Heavenly bodies(planets in our solar system and astrology) as an extension of Egypt's SUN GOD RA. because "Heaven" is used to mean 2 things. The word Heaven is primarily the Spiritual plane. but is also used symbolically to refer to the sky and beyond into space. The teachings of egypt nor Greeks was lost. it was incorporated. re-interpreted. described from another perspective to avoid misleading interpretation. the whole nature of being classed as a pagan is when people stop Obeying God's word. when people start making the choice to support evil selfishly ignoring God they become pagan. because their interpretation led them to do the wrong thing. The rituals associated with sacrificing to the Gods are all also symbolic. The whole theme of sacrifice from animals to fasting is about sacrificing sin, or guilty pleasures. to make the choice to resist temptation to things that stagnate spiritual growth. always seeking growth and expansion to become aware of the Spirit. These ritual symbols only symbolize what we are really supposed to do. innocence was sacrificed(virgins, babies) in early primitive cultures because innocence is the only valid offering to God. The message that is carried in the ritual is more important than performing the ritual. again.. demonstrating how people can become pagan. by perform rituals without devotion to God it is to perform them IN VAIN. THE DEVOTION to God is MORE IMPORTANT than performing the ritual.

"Rend your hearts and not your garment". serving God isnt about being the best dressed in church. Worshiping God in fancy clothes makes no difference to him from worshiping him naked. performing the ritual of tearing your garment to show despair when not truly feeling despair is pagan/Vain/fallacy. if your heart not with it then you not performing the ritual as a proper service. which singles out 'Heart' as the most important aspect of worshiping and serving God. and if you serving God with Heart/full devotion.. then even the ritual becomes unecessary. which is the goal. the rituals are used for teaching a viewpoint. the rituals do not actually serve God. you serve God with you Body, Mind and Soul. that is, through your actions, your choices and your devotion to God in everyday living. not just when you go to church.

You making a mistake here bro, Cyrus was apersian king, the son of Cambyses, he lived in the sixth century B.C . He gave the instructions to the Jews to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, according to the books of Ezra and Chronicles. He was prophesied of ,almost two hundred years before his birth,by Isaiah (chapter 44) Alexander the Great lived in the fourth century BC.,.He was the greek.

[ruffneck_12]

Scientology is the one true religion

all Hail Tom Cruise