What is the PNM's plan for the economy?

[ingalook]

WTF you guys on about Sheep?

Measure your PNM and UNC penises in your own threads

That is the problem with T&T politics, no one is willing to think on their own, everybody towing the party line - regardless of whether or not it is good for the country

When I came out against UNC policies it was the same thing from the other side

Redman, Habit7, rfari and RASC ALL concede that the VAT reduction was done to benefit DOMA and the corporate fat cats in Trinidad

They ALL concede that it will ultimately hurt poor people and the country BUT - it is a PNM policy and election promise so they are fine with it.

I think calling them sheep is an insult to these noble animals

Well make a facking thread that no one could post in, because ALL threads degenerate into PP/PNM bashing, even the road tripping one. Sheep don't like to be called sheep yunno.

Yeah scrap de rail, like we scrap the smelter? Don't scrap it, postpone it until we have the money to pay back the IMF. Now isn't the time to diversify. The time for that, as Harold Ramkissoon said, was in 2012 when the first independent oil companies started to collect their first barrels of shale oil and gas. What this time is about is protecting the gains we have made. If we diversify in now, we are only going to get the proceeds from that in the next 4-5 years, its not going to help us. The unfortunate fact is that oil and gas got us into this mess, and oil and gas is going to get us out,. Diversification should have been taken atleast five to ten years ago. A major project in diversifying the downstream sector, the smelter was cancelled and we are feeling the effects

Getting rid of the smelter was a mistake, I think I said that a few years back - men brought in machinery to make rims (wheels) down her and were left with their dicks in their hands... imagine where we would have been with all those downstream industries

Closing down Caroni was a big mistake as well... it was burning money, but there was so much potential there.

You kinda just glossing over the VAT issue tho... but I doubt that is by accident

[Redman]

Getting rid of the smelter was a mistake, I think I said that a few years back - men brought in machinery to make rims (wheels) down her and were left with their dicks in their hands... imagine where we would have been with all those downstream industries

I dont see the sense in 'diversifying' into an industry that has a high correlation to OIL/NG prices.
Both Aluminum and Hydrocarbons have a -ve correlation to the USD.
Therefore they would put us in the same boat....production of a commodity that is in excess supply and tied to economic performance globally...thereby suffering the same price cycles.

Right now we would be the high priced producer selling products to who? and where? competing with the largest producers dumping product world wide.

Closing down Caroni was a big mistake as well... it was burning money, but there was so much potential there.

Land grab and a multi party support of transport companies desire to import sugar.
Gopaul luck eh nobody else luck...its good to have friends that lead both parties.

Both Manning and KPB were given the opportunity to keep Caroni open and running-albeit in a different industry....both chose to offer friends the economic benefits.

[Habit7]

No one govt responsible for the fall of Caroni’



...but people were grabbing resources after it closed—former director
Published:
Monday, July 20, 2015

Cane farmers return from the fields after a day of harvesting in the 1980's.
Mismanagement and corruption at the highest level contributed to the closure of Caroni (1975) Ltd says Seukeran Tambie, president of the Cane Producers Association of T&T. And up to this day, he said, no one wants to come out and say the ex-sugar workers have been wronged.

Tambie, who was appointed an opposition senator by former prime minister and former president of the All Trinidad Sugar and General Workers Trade Union Basdeo Panday, disputed claims by former People’s National Movement (PNM) finance minister Karen Nunez-Tesheira that Caroni Ltd was shut down because of 30 years of consistent losses from an industry that was intended to contribute to the GDP of the country.

She was speaking in Parliament on a Caroni Ltd motion brought by the then opposition in December 2009. Tambie insisted that for 30 years the PNM government had made a profit of $2,000 on a tonne of sugar. “The issue here is not that the sugar industry was making a loss; it was mismanagement and corruption to the highest level.”

Jennifer Kernahan, another United National Congress (UNC) senator, had said the past administration apparently was determined to shut down Caroni Ltd and used the excuse that it was a drain on the economy to the tune of $200 million annually, and that the production price of sugar in Trinidad was uneconomical.

She countered that foreign exchange earned by the industry from export kept 10,000 rural sugar workers and 15,000 cane farmers in gainful and productive employment, and that a rural community of over 300,000 was dependent on the operations of the industry for their economic survival.

Former director: Panday seen as a failed leader
Meanwhile, former Caroni Ltd director Dr Mahfouz Aziz dismissed the idea of a political conspiracy behind the shutdown of the sugar industry. “I don’t think any one government was responsible,” Aziz, who served as a director between 1996 and 2000 said. “In some ways, the Panday administration and the National Alliance for Reconstruction (NAR) also wanted to diversify the company. They all tried. It was not a deliberate thing.

“However, after the closure, there were those who wanted to grab the resources and do what they wanted. I have no qualms about saying that.” Aziz said Panday, when he was in power between 1995 and 2001, wanted to diversify Caroni Ltd away from sugar but did not have a strong vision. “He was seen by sugar workers as a failed leader.”

Aziz said during the NAR’s time in office, from 1986 to 1991, Ranjit Singh, an economist, served as chairman of the board of Caroni. “They came up with a plan by Winston Dookeran, a minister at the time. It was the most comprehensive plan for the diversification of Caroni. “They started and then governments changed (the PNM won the 1991 general election) and the project fell apart.” He said the PNM had a tripartite plan, involving workers, the government and the company, to write off a $2 billion Caroni Ltd debt.

“Since then, there has always been some effort, even when Dr Keith Rowley was agriculture minister, to do things for Caroni.”

‘Sugar production increased under Rowley’
Aziz said under Rowley sugar production actually increased after a long time. “He had a lot of management support. A large part of the management in Caroni were of PNM persuasion.” Aziz said lack of capital to develop diversification projects led to the failure of the company. “I recalled being asked to do a livestock master plan for Caroni and finance minister Brian Kuei Tung giving $50 million to develop it.

“Five months later, I got a call saying they needed $30 million to pay workers’ salaries.” Aziz said Caroni was not only growing sugar and did not have only sugar workers’ salaries to pay. “The company was fat between senior and lower management. They needed to trim there a whole lot.” He said Caroni also operated various other factories and estates, outside of sugar.

“There were cocoa estates, Caroni was one of the largest owners of water buffaloes.” He said the company, which also owned ten per cent of Plipdeco and had 69,000 acres of land, was rich in resources and could have been a very successful one today. As for whether pillaging had any part to play in the company being unprofitable, Aziz said, “I would not say there was no corruption at Caroni. But it was not the cause of its closure.”

Cries of hungry children
Panday said there were strong cultural ties sugar workers had to the industry. “They worked in it for over 170 years, from since they were brought from India to work as indentured immigrants on the sugar estates. “And it was a culture shock, certainly, when it was taken away from them.” Panday himself came from the bowels of the sugar cane industry in the South. “My father was a cane farmer and my mother helped him cut cane. I myself cut cane.”

Talking about the humble cane cutters he led for years, Panday, in a rare show of emotion, was almost on the verge of tears. He recalled the labour strikes for better wages when Caroni was run by Tate & Lyle and later, the PNM government. When he came into the industry in 1973 the wages of a sugar cane labourer was 63 cents an hour and $5.04 cents a day. Women worked for four or five months a year and got $600.

“While they worked they would take credit in the village shops and when the crop started, they would pay it off. (These businesses, created around the industry, also went bankrupt with the industry’s closure.) “The homes of many of the cane labourers were mud huts covered with carat leaves. It was an enormous struggle.

“When the cries of the hungry children in the homes got louder, the men would go in the rumshop. “It’s the women who would listen to their cries. When it got so loud it burst like thunder in their heads they stood up.” Panday said it was women cane cutters who fought with him for better pay.

Nirvan Maharaj, president of the All Trinidad General Workers Union (ATGWU) in his address to former sugar workers at Central’s first ever Labour Day celebrations at the union’s headquarters at Rienzi Complex in June, said they could never forget that the former administration refused to raise the wages of sugar cane workers.

“Can we ever forget that in 1978, then prime minister Dr Eric Williams singled out sugar workers and announced there will be no further increases for them until Caroni Ltd made a profit? “Yet, the same rule didn’t apply to other state enterprises like BWIA, Telco, Ispatt and others.”

Child labourers
Panday recounted his struggles to remove children from the canefields, a fight that was against even the sugar workers themselves. He said in 1973, a female labourer would be paid $3.99 to cut and bundle one tonne of cane. “Both mother and father would go to the fields and carry their children to help them. These children would be between eight and 11.

“The mother would cut the cane and the children would bundle them. A lot of children got no schooling. “When I came in, I embarked on a tremendous struggle to get them out. It was difficult because the cane workers themselves didn’t want it.” Caroni Ltd, ignoring Panday’s pleas to get the children out of the fields and into the schools, threw that back in his face, saying, “We didn’t put them there.”

“I remember, as a lawyer, threatening the company that if children were injured in the cane fields they were liable to workmen’s compensation.” He said today, some of the children of cane cutters who were taken out of the fields are professionals, doctors and lawyers. John Jaglal, first vice-president of the ATGWTU was a child labourer in the cane fields. He lived with his grandparents, former Indian indentured immigrants, in Chase Village, until his mother took him away.

“I started to work with my mother in 1958 in the Wyaby Section in Carapichaima. I was 12. “I cut cane and was a cart man for bison and mule carts. I lived with my mother, stepfather and sisters and stopped school in Second Standard to work.” Jaglal remembers his mother later taking him to a Caroni Ltd manager who wore short khaki pants.

The manager gave him a copper badge making him an official labourer with the company. “I continued cutting cane for 14 years working for my own money, over $1 a day.” Jaglal’s last job was as a sling man. “When the trucks came with the cane and the crane picked up the bundle, I burst it with a long rod.”

When the industry was shut down, he continued working in the union, where he began as branch president for the Wyaby Section.

Alcohol, drugs, broken homes
Large numbers of cane labourers were not as fortunate as Jaglal. They were employed only seasonally with Caroni, had no education or skilled training, and suffered tremendously when the industry was closed. “Most of them used to work six months while in the industry and scrounge out a living for the rest of the year. They would do all kinds of odd jobs to survive,” Panday said.

“They had learnt to live off their wits and continued to do this after the shutdown of the industry.” Former UNC senator, Dr Sharon Gopaul-McNichol, a psychologist, speaking on a Caroni Ltd motion in Parliament in December 2009, said she expressed concern when she was told of the shutdown of the industry while she served as minister in the Trade Ministry under the PNM.

She said she warned such a move should not take place without serious consideration of the impact on the workers. She told Parliament in 2009, “I would like this Government to take stock of the socially and psychologically traumatic effects that this has had on the entire Central area. “Communities and families have been disrupted as a result of this move. Many former sugar workers were hospitalised because of the trauma it took on their families.

“Let me explain, psychologically, how this can happen. Constant uncertainty leads to anxiety. When anxiety is not addressed it leads to depression. When depression is not addressed, it leads to anger, which is manifested in several ways." She said, “It could be manifested as anger turned inward which is further depression; it could be manifested as anger turned outward which can lead to aggression, and the extreme cases you see suicide, and that is when the anger turns so deeply inward that people can be suicidal.

“Several persons had called me throughout the country who were faced with this situation telling me how depressed they were. “I remember trying to refer them to the so called counselling that I saw listed on writing and on paper all over that the Government was providing, but it was a journey accessing the counselling services.

“Today, some of them are patients on the psychiatric ward at the San Fernando General Hospital, while many others have gone to early graves in poverty from stress-related illnesses.”

http://www.guardian.co.tt/news/2015-07- ... i%E2%80%99

[Redman]

Redman on games everyone on tuner knows he's a PNM. He's a bigger sheep than Habit7, rfari and RASC.

Actually I considered him one of the more moderate pro-PNM 2Ners.

If by this you mean I voted against the UNC in 2015 then yes...I am.
Same way I voted for the COP in 2010.
And some time around 2001/2 I tell manning he was a chit hong the nite before 18-18(it was the Puncheon and Salt prunes outside Happy Hill Bar)
And for the COP in the one before-did campaign work for them in the earlies
And for the UNC before that.
and supported the NAR in their campaign.

oh yes.....I voted for Anil Roberts in the COP internals.

Im quite happy making a choice and living with it.

in 2020 I will make a choice ......based on what happens between now and then.

Now you dont have to make any assumptions.

[De Dragon]

Yes, let's just ignore the dissenting opinions.

what do you do with opinions you disagree with???

I acknowledge them, I don't pretend that they don't exist and only use opinions (well except my own) to forward my arguments.

[De Dragon]

Redman on games everyone on tuner knows he's a PNM. He's a bigger sheep than Habit7, rfari and RASC.

Actually I considered him one of the more moderate pro-PNM 2Ners.

If by this you mean I voted against the UNC in 2015 then yes...I am.
Same way I voted for the COP in 2010.
And some time around 2001/2 I tell manning he was a chit hong the nite before 18-18(it was the Puncheon and Salt prunes outside Happy Hill Bar)
And for the COP in the one before-did campaign work for them in the earlies
And for the UNC before that.
and supported the NAR in their campaign.

oh yes.....I voted for Anil Roberts in the COP internals.

Im quite happy making a choice and living with it.

in 2020 I will make a choice ......based on what happens between now and then.

Now you dont have to make any assumptions.

Yet you never seem to defend any other party/Government at any other point in time EVER!

[Redman]

well you're wrong.

Consistent.

[De Dragon]

well you're wrong.

Consistent.

Says the Almighty all knowing Redman.

[Redman]

See wrong again.

Sheeple for the win.

[De Dragon]

See wrong again.

Sheeple for the win.

Baa Baa..
































Just trying to get through to you in your preferred language

[Redman]

That's Goat.

Which explains quite a bit.

[Allergic2BunnyEars]

De dragon you rather cross insults with redman rather than answer them questions?

[RASC]

Sound like a fuckkngwoman with the back and forth...
No wonder you guys never show your faces for real at events!

[K74T]

De Beatup

[De Dragon]

Sound like a fuckkngwoman with the back and forth...
No wonder you guys never show your faces for real at events!

No why on God's facking green earth would I want to fraternize with the likes of ah kanthole like you?

[ingalook]

De Beatup

Same on us for caring that the Government of T&T is planning on running a scam on citizens

Habit7

Nice article there man... makes you feel for the workers and get a better understanding of how people in those areas were treated like second class citizens

Allergic2BunnyEars

What questions are you referring to?

[De Dragon]

That's Goat.

Which explains quite a bit.

Yeah because we all know the famous nursery rhyme goes "baa baa black goat" . Try again failsheep.

[De Dragon]

WTF you guys on about Sheep?

Measure your PNM and UNC penises in your own threads

That is the problem with T&T politics, no one is willing to think on their own, everybody towing the party line - regardless of whether or not it is good for the country

When I came out against UNC policies it was the same thing from the other side

Redman, Habit7, rfari and RASC ALL concede that the VAT reduction was done to benefit DOMA and the corporate fat cats in Trinidad

They ALL concede that it will ultimately hurt poor people and the country BUT - it is a PNM policy and election promise so they are fine with it.

I calling them sheep is an insult to these noble animals

Boss, Aboud come out say he did not say enough.Amcham, Pt Lisas business chamber and chaguanas business chamber said he was spot on. The only thing Dr Hosein was skeptical about was the housing drive. The only thing the Chamber of commerce disagreed with was splitting the H&S fund although economists have been saying to do this for years.

Dont bother Spougla....at times its necessary to seperate the sheep from the GOATS.

Ask Anand....its a vital distinction when driving your...

...uh point home.

Yes, let's just ignore the dissenting opinions.

What do you suggest the Government do as a way forward to improve the economy?

Scrap the rail, diversify the economy, cut wastage by scaling back the mega-projects. Enforce/improve tax collection. Tax gambling heavily. Leave VAT as it is, with some zero rated items. Get more value out of the gas supply chain by partnering with companies in JV's instead of just collecting taxes.

Ok that's a start. How do you propose they diversify the economy?
Manufacturing, agriculture, film industry, shipyards, technology, communications, fashion,

What mega projects can they scale back on currently?
Rapid rail
Partnering in JV to achieve what in your scenario? As in physically collecting of the gas? Or for technology sharing purposes? Both?
No instead of allowing companies to come here and our only involvement is gas sales and tax collection, we should be sharing in the actual profits as wellImproved tax collection was one of the points Imbert mentioned in his budget I believe.
Yes, but there still has to be enforcement of the collection regime and penalties.
Do you agree with property tax?
Yes, but not the proposed property valuation modelPlenty questions yes but they are for clarification purposes.

[Allergic2BunnyEars]

De Beatup

Same on us for caring that the Government of T&T is planning on running a scam on citizens

Habit7

Nice article there man... makes you feel for the workers and get a better understanding of how people in those areas were treated like second class citizens

Allergic2BunnyEars

What questions are you referring to?

I'm on mobile so can't post the link to my post but it's a few posts back and the questions were directed at de dragon to get further clarification on a post he made before.

As 1uzfe said before though this is ole talk so I guess it really is easier to trade insults than to go into details.

[De Dragon]

De Beatup

Same on us for caring that the Government of T&T is planning on running a scam on citizens

Habit7

Nice article there man... makes you feel for the workers and get a better understanding of how people in those areas were treated like second class citizens

Allergic2BunnyEars

What questions are you referring to?

I'm on mobile so can't post the link to my post but it's a few posts back and the questions were directed at de dragon to get further clarification on a post he made before.

As 1uzfe said before though this is ole talk so I guess it really is easier to trade insults than to go into details.

I replied to you already.............

[RASC]

Sound like a fuckkngwoman with the back and forth...
No wonder you guys never show your faces for real at events!

No why on God's facking green earth would I want to fraternize with the likes of ah kanthole like you?

So because I have a difference of opinion I am a kanthole and not to fraternise with.
This is WOMAN behavior... Not one of a Man.
I don't agree with many tuners' opinions or point of views, but you think I wouldn't say "Hi" , help if in need or be in the same general vicinity? That's estrogen behavior , judging by your responses you're full of it. Very emotional.

[De Dragon]

Sound like a fuckkngwoman with the back and forth...
No wonder you guys never show your faces for real at events!

No why on God's facking green earth would I want to fraternize with the likes of ah kanthole like you?

So because I have a difference of opinion I am a kanthole and not to fraternise with.
This is WOMAN behavior... Not one of a Man.
I don't agree with many tuners' opinions or point of views, but you think I wouldn't say "Hi" , help if in need or be in the same general vicinity? That's estrogen behavior , judging by your responses you're full of it. Very emotional.

Thanks, I have been trying to get more in touch with my feminine side. I wouldn't pass you straight if you were in a jam because of our differences either.

[RASC]

Just my casual observations and opinion. I'm not taking anything here personal.

Anyway->

At the end of the day all of us want ONE thing and that's for T&T to come out on top of this situation!

[Redman]

Believe him...he speaks goa.....uh sheep.

[De Dragon]

Just my casual observations and opinion. I'm not taking anything here personal.

Anyway->

At the end of the day all of us want ONE thing and that's for T&T to come out on top of this situation!

Agreed, no matter how heated things get, we all have a common goal.

[De Dragon]

Believe him...he speaks goa.....uh sheep.

Ok, let's give the sheep talk a rest and get back to proper discussion?

[EmilioA]

[bluesclues]

ehhh dont listen to ingalook

goo onnnn eatt.. eatttt




ded*

[bluesclues]

only problem boy op.. is that it doesnt seem that you know that austerity measures.. IS a keynesian strategy. sure it has pulled countries out of recesion before. but remember recession is a cyclical pattern and by using the same policies each recession was always worse than the one before.

but evidently the only measures that cut recessions almost immediately is if governments facilitate the people over the corporations and let bad corporations die. too big to fail as a mantra has to be abandoned. corporations that run on policies that bleed a country dry economically need to face the burden of their poor choices when the economy come back around looking to balance their section. corporation do shyt.. take it over, if its too difficult to manage sell to someone else with a new set of restrictions that will prevent them making the same mistakes that led to that situation.

in keynes though the main philosophy IS THERE. they know that they have to get more CIRCULATION going. but they found a shortcut that allowed them to create that circulation within a small circle. leaving out the general population but still representing well in our gdp books. but originally.. increasing circulation means more money in consumer hands so that they dont feel any pinch. that is consumer confidence.. when consumers actually have money. regardless of tough times or not.. ppl with strong finances will spend to keep their quality of life as close as possible to what theyre accustomed to.


but im with you on the austerity for mega projects thing. we really have no business again trying to facilitate the economy by awarding large contractor agency jobs. individual works jobs on our roads alone will have a much greater impact imv.

[De Dragon]

only problem boy op.. is that it doesnt seem that you know that austerity measures.. IS a keynesian strategy. sure it has pulled countries out of recesion before. but remember recession is a cyclical pattern and by using the same policies each recession was always worse than the one before.

but evidently the only measures that cut recessions almost immediately is if governments facilitate the people over the corporations and let bad corporations die. too big to fail as a mantra has to be abandoned. corporations that run on policies that bleed a country dry economically need to face the burden of their poor choices when the economy come back around looking to balance their section. corporation do shyt.. take it over, if its too difficult to manage sell to someone else with a new set of restrictions that will prevent them making the same mistakes that led to that situation.

in keynes though the main philosophy IS THERE. they know that they have to get more CIRCULATION going. but they found a shortcut that allowed them to create that circulation within a small circle. leaving out the general population but still representing well in our gdp books. but originally.. increasing circulation means more money in consumer hands so that they dont feel any pinch. that is consumer confidence.. when consumers actually have money. regardless of tough times or not.. ppl with strong finances will spend to keep their quality of life as close as possible to what theyre accustomed to.


but im with you on the austerity for mega projects thing. we really have no business again trying to facilitate the economy by awarding large contractor agency jobs. individual works jobs on our roads alone will have a much greater impact imv.

The Contractors' Association president said that wrt to the housing thrust being contemplated. Spread the contracts and not award mega contracts. I agree as long as the contractor has the resources to do the job safely and properly, Sammy and others have too much contracts for other things to be looking to do housing as well.