The Religion Discussion

[AdamB]

And concerning the Dead Sea Scrolls, what makes it authentic? Why don't they publish it side to side with corresponding bible books? Of course they couldn't because 2000 yrs of "corrections", lies, changes, deletions and additions....the outcome will be astounding.

[Habit7]

What is with you guys and quoting from Wikipedia like if it is Internet's bastion of truth?

Duane there are inspired biblical texts and there are uninspired extra biblical texts both during the time of the OT and NT. Not every book with a guy's name in the title makes it qualify for it to be canonised.

AdamB you can beat around the bush on this issue all you want, Christianity dictates that God the Son will plead on the behalf of those He has saved from judgement to God the Father. Islam dictates that Allah would appoint a man to plead on the behalf of those whom he just found out believed in Islam, on the day of judgement. Either both are wrong, or one is correct, but one post-dates the other and substitutes a man in the role of God.

And concerning the Dead Sea Scrolls, what makes it authentic? Why don't they publish it side to side with corresponding bible books? Of course they couldn't because 2000 yrs of "corrections", lies, changes, deletions and additions....the outcome will be astounding.

this one goes to my friend AdamB from those the religious organisation that is Google:




P.S. I still waiting on my reference of Jews asking Moses to pray to God from them.

[Habit7]

BTW Since we are one the topic of Isaiah, an it being Easter Monday, let me quote him:

Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,
And like a root out of parched ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.
He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.

Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.
But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.

He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?
His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.

But the Lord was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.
As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.

Book of Isaiah, circa 740-680 B.C

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

And concerning the Dead Sea Scrolls, what makes it authentic? Why don't they publish it side to side with corresponding bible books? Of course they couldn't because 2000 yrs of "corrections", lies, changes, deletions and additions....the outcome will be astounding.

actually the great scroll of Isaiah is pretty much identical to the current Book of Isaiah as it appears in the Bible today.

it's the rest of it that I was asking about

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

What is with you guys and quoting from Wikipedia like if it is Internet's bastion of truth?

what makes the quoted statement NOT the truth? Wikipedia is crowd sourced, a major method of unbiased research. Yes there are errors in Wikipedia, but then show the errors of the quoted material - don't paint it with a broad brush.

Duane there are inspired biblical texts and there are uninspired extra biblical texts both during the time of the OT and NT. Not every book with a guy's name in the title makes it qualify for it to be canonised.

well that was my question, how is one considered inspired and the other uninspired?

[Habit7]

Saying "scholars say..." without reference, crowd source or not, doesn't make one's claim fully informed. Furthermore as I have shown to AdamB when he quoted from Wikipedia a statement in a book I happened to have with exact author, edition and page, I was able to verify in my text that the quote exists nowhere in the text but only on the internet as different sites quoted Wikipedia.

Primarily, the works of Jewish prophets is what is consider inspired, non prophets like priests and religious teachers constitute uninspired.

[megadoc1]

Merlener,
Back to the "sign of Jonah". If Jesus died on Friday evening, spent 3 days and 3 nights IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH...how come he "was resurrected" on Sunday instead of Monday? That's at least 1 night short if you count the parts of the days on Friday and Monday as 1 each.

Adam B this argument is perfect only in ignorance, in the ancient world Jewish reckoning of time was not like how we reckon time in this modern age ,back then any part of the day was considered a day but I will
leave you to research the rest or continue making a fool of yourself no wait let me give you something practical to butcher
Luk 13:32 And he said unto them, Go and say to that fox, Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures to-day and to-morrow, and the third day I am perfected.
Luk 13:33 Nevertheless I must go on my way to-day and to-morrow and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

[AdamB]

Saying "scholars say..." without reference, crowd source or not, doesn't make one's claim fully informed. Furthermore as I have shown to AdamB when he quoted from Wikipedia a statement in a book I happened to have with exact author, edition and page, I was able to verify in my text that the quote exists nowhere in the text but only on the internet as different sites quoted Wikipedia.

Primarily, the works of Jewish prophets is what is consider inspired, non prophets like priests and religious teachers constitute uninspired.

Thanks for confirming that the ENTIRE NEW TESTAMENT IS UNINSPIRED!

[AdamB]

Merlener,
Back to the "sign of Jonah". If Jesus died on Friday evening, spent 3 days and 3 nights IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH...how come he "was resurrected" on Sunday instead of Monday? That's at least 1 night short if you count the parts of the days on Friday and Monday as 1 each.

Adam B this argument is perfect only in ignorance, in the ancient world Jewish reckoning of time was not like how we reckon time in this modern age ,back then any part of the day was considered a day but I will
leave you to research the rest or continue making a fool of yourself no wait let me give you something practical to butcher
Luk 13:32 And he said unto them, Go and say to that fox, Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures to-day and to-morrow, and the third day I am perfected.
Luk 13:33 Nevertheless I must go on my way to-day and to-morrow and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

I was hoping that one of you guys would say what time on Friday he was supposed "killed" and what time on Sunday he was supposed "resurrected".

The quote said 3 days and 3 nights, that's kinda clear but anyway you guys say 3 GODS = 1 GOD, so 3 DAYS + 3 NIGHTS = 2 DAYS + 2 (OR 3) NIGHTS should be perfectly acceptable to you.

It was also quoted from the mouth of Jesus that "just as Jonah was in the belly of the fish/whale", he would be "IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH". Now since "that was ancient times", you would say that ON THE CROSS = BEING "BURIED" IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH. Of course, that's logical to you because it helps to justify your NEED to have a MAN-GOD die for you to be saved.

You say jesus died, I want to know clearly: DID JONAH DIE IN THE BELLY OF THE FISH AND WAS RESURRECTED?

Also, could you also advise that "in ancient times", how long did it take for a person to die on the cross? (since the point of crucifixion was to have a long painful death, and Jesus was a young man of good health so he would have lasted the longest I presume.)

[Habit7]

I love how you gloss over the highlighting of the errors of your claims over the Book of Isaiah and its unchanged script. Furthermore, that you ignore the fact the 700 years prior Isaiah prophesies the birth, life and death of Jesus in vivid detail along with the His role as intercessor, a role that the man Muhammad attempts to claim.

You repeatedly make false claims and cite dubious references and when corrected you refuse to acknowledge and go on accusing the Bible of being corrupted and altered (again with no proof). I wonder if it is even possible to reason with you, because you don't use truth as a basis of belief.

[AdamB]

I love how you gloss over the highlighting of the errors of your claims over the Book of Isaiah and its unchanged script. Furthermore, that you ignore the fact the 700 years prior Isaiah prophesies the birth, life and death of Jesus in vivid detail along with the His role as intercessor, a role that the man Muhammad attempts to claim.

You repeatedly make false claims and cite dubious references and when corrected you refuse to acknowledge and go on accusing the Bible of being corrupted and altered (again with no proof). I wonder if it is even possible to reason with you, because you don't use truth as a basis of belief.

Well actually, I really haven't focused on responding to you / those Isaiah stuff yet due to work but if you use a forgery to confirm that another forgery (copied from one another) is original, then that's the real issue here.

I pointed out not too long ago on this thread that the "scriptures" you use to prove Jesus' alleged divinity is of QUESTIONABLE origin. May go back and re-post.

Duane pointed out that comparing the Dead Sea Scrolls found that everything else was different except Isaiah. What evidence do you have to prove that either one dates back to "ancient times"? The majority of the New Testament is completely un-authentic / changed over time and you use those as proof of making GOD a man.

Uncanny that you can't worship GOD as GOD but ONLY AS A MAN!!

[Habit7]

I was hoping that one of you guys would say what time on Friday he was supposed "killed" and what time on Sunday he was supposed "resurrected".

The quote said 3 days and 3 nights, that's kinda clear but anyway you guys say 3 GODS = 1 GOD, so 3 DAYS + 3 NIGHTS = 2 DAYS + 2 (OR 3) NIGHTS should be perfectly acceptable to you.

It was also quoted from the mouth of Jesus that "just as Jonah was in the belly of the fish/whale", he would be "IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH". Now since "that was ancient times", you would say that ON THE CROSS = BEING "BURIED" IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH. Of course, that's logical to you because it helps to justify your NEED to have a MAN-GOD die for you to be saved.

You say jesus died, I want to know clearly: DID JONAH DIE IN THE BELLY OF THE FISH AND WAS RESURRECTED?

Also, could you also advise that "in ancient times", how long did it take for a person to die on the cross? (since the point of crucifixion was to have a long painful death, and Jesus was a young man of good health so he would have lasted the longest I presume.)

He died at 3pm Friday (Matthew 27:46) and resurrected at dawn on Sunday (Matthew 28:1)

A 1st Century tomb was usually underground or in a cave (Luke 24:12) hence the term 'buried in the Earth'

The Jonah reference gives one the picture of the time frame: 3 days. Nothing more.

Jesus did not die a natural death, he stopped His life (Mark 15:37, John 10:18)

Duane pointed out that comparing the Dead Sea Scrolls found that everything else was different except Isaiah.

Duane you said this?

[AdamB]

18 Woe unto them that draw iniquity with cords of vanity, and sin as it were with a cart rope:
19 That say, Let him make speed, and hasten his work, that we may see it: and let the counsel of the Holy One of Israel draw nigh and come, that we may know it!
20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
21 Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!
22 Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:
23 Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!

Dspike can you with unbiased thinking explain the above please. I'd like to know what are your thoughts?

I note you use the KJV. When it comes to scholastic studying of scripture, I'm afraid this version with its archaic idiom and improper translations doesn't cut it at all. Anyone who swears by this version alone deserves whatever AdamB tells them regarding "tampered scripture"...

The Book of Isaiah is actually produced by at least three fellows, as the writing style changes, and the writing spans from the eighth century BC right into the sixth century BC.These verses are written by the "original" Isaiah, also called "Proto-Isaiah". They serve as part of his reference to the danger posed by the late eighth century expansion of Assyria into the Kingdom of Judah. They are part of his prophesy of judgment against God's people, which implies that their covenant with God cannot protect them when they have broken it by idolatry and other sins.
These six verses are from chapter five and are aimed at the sinful folk who have willingly loaded themselves with the burden of their transgressions. These folk challenge God brazenly, almost taunting Him to stick to His covenant and zap the enemy... all the while perverting moral standards and practicing injustice and bribery. They think they are wise enough to handle any situation and reject a humble dependence on God (a clear shot at Ahaz ) and clearly spend a lot of time boasting about their strength while liming at bars - though their only strength seems to be lifting glasses.

You need to look at the historical setting:
Assyria was the super-power at the time, and Judah had just refused to join Israel and Syria in a revolt against Assyria. These two countries then threatened invasion of Judah. Isaiah advised Judah's king, Ahaz, to seek God's protection, but Ahaz asked the Assyrians for protection instead, thus making Judah an Assyrian vassal. (Assyria later thrashed and trashed Israel.) Isaiah didn't approve of this belittling of his country, and proceeded to foretell the results of the error of kowtowing to goyim Assyrians.

When I read it "Isaiah" 5 these words remind me of the world we are living in right now. But this was in isreals time. So why does it bear striking accracy to now.?

Simply because of the human condition - "All men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God", to quote Paul. Because of our love to err, we fall, repeatedly. Due to this, the errors of the past often repeat themselves. (Take this thread as an example. Do you know why it is so bloody long? Because people keep saying the same old things, bringing up the same old arguments over and over and over... and to just look back at what went before is so simple it is laughable. Some of us just quote ourselves ad nauseum to deal with the monotony of it all. ) History is full of Ahazes and Isaiahs... and to consider these ancient writings (whose focus is quite clear) as a specific modern prophecy is yet another foolish error that is oft repeated...

Dspike take a look at this taken from Daniel "I am quoting from the good book because it is relevant"

22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

Do you know who is the ancient of days?
And do you know which is the fourth kingdom being spoken about in this text?

I fail to see how it is relevant.
Daniel is a remarkable book, written partly in Aramaic and partly in Hebrew. It is written in the apocalyptic style which was popular between 200 BC and 100 AD - unfortunately, many literalists/fundamentalists are convinced that it hides prophecies of modern and future events, simply because they ignore the idiom of the time, the focus of the author and his concerns.
While the book seems to be set in sixth century BC Babylonian times, it is actually a lot newer - the second century BC, to be precise.
The traditional stories of the first six chapters are legends older than the visions of the later chapters. Those visions were written by an anonymous author in the Maccabean era, who compiled the legends with the visions as one book, in the second century BC.
The visions describe the national crisis that occurred under Antiochus IV Epiphanes, a Seleucid king who attempted to introduce Hellenistic religious practices, including the worship of idols, into the temple and the Jewish religion more generally, sparking outrage from the more traditional holy rollers - such as the writer who produced Daniel.

Within the foreign royal court, the hero and his friends survive all sorts of dangers, rising to the highest positions in the land. Daniel foretells both the individual punishment of the Babylonian kings and the overthrow of their empire. Then Daniel has visions, which culminate in frightening depictions of a powerful king who, like the Babylonian rulers of the court tales, attacks Israel, defiles the temple, and incurs divine judgment.
quote]
habit7,

Was searching and realised that it was Daniel not Isaiah but found this from Dspike.

[Habit7]

Well one the reasons I decided to insert myself into this thread was because there were a lot of errors being proclaim and no adequate retort. One thing I have attempted is not to just spout my own opinion but but an opinion that has been formed through ample study and an well placed and referenced scholarship. I would like to challenge Dspike on what you are quoting him on as I don't know him personally nor do I know the basis for his opinion or scholarship. I would have been great if he referenced scholars in those precise views he shared but from what he saying, it is of no greater significance to me than a Wikipedia article. But I guess that is where the problem lies...

Likewise, I am hoping you are not doing what other Muslims like to do? I hope you are not referencing someone who is attacking Christianity but who would likewise attack Islam. Because, that would be disingenuous, just saying.

[megadoc1]

Merlener,
Back to the "sign of Jonah". If Jesus died on Friday evening, spent 3 days and 3 nights IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH...how come he "was resurrected" on Sunday instead of Monday? That's at least 1 night short if you count the parts of the days on Friday and Monday as 1 each.

Adam B this argument is perfect only in ignorance, in the ancient world Jewish reckoning of time was not like how we reckon time in this modern age ,back then any part of the day was considered a day but I will
leave you to research the rest or continue making a fool of yourself no wait let me give you something practical to butcher
Luk 13:32 And he said unto them, Go and say to that fox, Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures to-day and to-morrow, and the third day I am perfected.
Luk 13:33 Nevertheless I must go on my way to-day and to-morrow and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

I was hoping that one of you guys would say what time on Friday he was supposed "killed" and what time on Sunday he was supposed "resurrected".

the bible says Friday 3pm
and it says early Sunday morning for the resurrection

The quote said 3 days and 3 nights, that's kinda clear but anyway you guys say 3 GODS = 1 GOD, so 3 DAYS + 3 NIGHTS = 2 DAYS + 2 (OR 3) NIGHTS should be perfectly acceptable to you.

yuh see why yuh should study what others believe before you offer your objections? let me give yuh more headache on the first day of the week (sunday) after Jesus' grave was found empty, two guys on the way to Emmaus was telling Jesus that Today(that same day his tomb was found empty) is the Third Day since he (Jesus) was crucified so go read it and tell me if yuh still want to argue their way of reckoning luke 24:13-27

It was also quoted from the mouth of Jesus that "just as Jonah was in the belly of the fish/whale", he would be "IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH". Now since "that was ancient times", you would say that ON THE CROSS = BEING "BURIED" IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH. Of course, that's logical to you because it helps to justify your NEED to have a MAN-GOD die for you to be saved.

great so here is where you went wrong, where underlined, I used the term "ancient time" regarding reckoning of time back then compared to now and nothing else ! please do not try to stretch that! second, you are 'forgetting' that Jesus' heart was also pierced on the cross
Joh 19:34 "But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. now you see how quickly your objections falls apart?

You say jesus died, I want to know clearly: DID JONAH DIE IN THE BELLY OF THE FISH AND WAS RESURRECTED?

Jesus died on the cross not in the earth so your comparison is a bit off

Also, could you also advise that "in ancient times", how long did it take for a person to die on the cross? (since the point of crucifixion was to have a long painful death, and Jesus was a young man of good health so he would have lasted the longest I presume.)

again "ancient times" referred to ancient reckoning of time vs our modern time nothing else.
Jesus suffered long before being nailed on the cross and the bible said "he Gave up the ghost" ah mean he can do anything being God and all that anyways read on
Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

adam b,read the bible nuh!

[megadoc1]

I love how you gloss over the highlighting of the errors of your claims over the Book of Isaiah and its unchanged script. Furthermore, that you ignore the fact the 700 years prior Isaiah prophesies the birth, life and death of Jesus in vivid detail along with the His role as intercessor, a role that the man Muhammad attempts to claim.

You repeatedly make false claims and cite dubious references and when corrected you refuse to acknowledge and go on accusing the Bible of being corrupted and altered (again with no proof). I wonder if it is even possible to reason with you, because you don't use truth as a basis of belief.

habit7, it has always been this way with adam b as soon as you address his claims, he just jumps onto another one without even responding to or defending his first,
there was a time I believe he was a BOT or maybe worst. I don't think he intends to reason with anyone who does not believe what he believes, as far as he is concerned ,you are filth

[AdamB]

Not filth, just engrossed in misguided until the true message of ALMIGHTY SETTLES IN THE HEART OF THE ONES WHO ARE SINCERE.

[nareshseep]

553214_455273994547091_1538142593_n.jpg (32.34 KiB) Viewed 1935 times

559056_457107337697090_190474888_n.jpg (46.14 KiB) Viewed 1935 times

[maj. tom]

Spent half a minute looking for the Onion News link in this one... especially after the statement about peace, tolerance, etc.


http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/2012-05-03/kuwait-parliament-approves-death-penalty-for-insulting-god.html

[metalgear2095]

Not filth, just engrossed in misguided until the true message of ALMIGHTY SETTLES IN THE HEART OF THE ONES WHO ARE SINCERE.

Blah blah blah more senseless crap

[Habit7]

64793_455077201233437_293383637_n.jpg

So Spiderman equates to the God of the Bible even though Stan Lee admits to Spiderman being a fictitious character he developed to sell comic books

Hey, why don't secular humanists really live out what they believe in. If there is no God, no life after death, no accountability, etc. why are you wasting your time posting in the religious thread of a internet forum. Be a true hedonist, be a epicurean. If this is the one and only life you will live, live it up. Whatever you do in this life is just an interlude to your sure and certain death and collision with inexistence and insignificance. Squeeze every sensual joy out of life with no inhibition for morality, distant outcome and even law because if the consequences are too steep, the most that could be done to you is that you die and avoid all responsibilities.

The Bible explores this position. It says, If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die" (1 Corinthians 15:32). And it says of Christians in 1 Corinthians 15:19, If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.

So don't waste your time here with cheesy internet memes that could only convince the weakest of minds. Go and fulfil every fleshly desire you have...

...or you might be all totally wrong and have now steeped a greater condemnation on your life.

[Sacchetto Boutique]

Habit7, can you explain the Christ died for your sins thing? I dont understand how it works. Can a christian commit a sin and all will be ok bc Christ died for his/ her sins?

[Kasey]

^^its all made up, to keep man in check, just like all other religions.

Because some people are not smart enough to know that they shouldnt do wrong. They need religion i.e. a promise of reward/punishment, to keep them in check.


Why do you want to understand? Will it change ur perspective on your religion?

[Sacchetto Boutique]

@ kasey, knowledge is power..seek knowledge from the cradle to the grave...
it wont change my perspective but i am curious as to how that works within their beliefs.

[Kasey]

@ kasey, knowledge is power..seek knowledge from the cradle to the grave...
it wont change my perspective but i am curious as to how that works within their beliefs.

And what will you do with that 'Power'? Is it the same reason AdamB wants it? He wants to know about Christianity to pelt stones, and find faults/holes in it.

BTW, re-read ur anecdote, you may wanna try to better understand it. It does not mean what you think it means.

[TonyM]

@ kasey, knowledge is power..seek knowledge from the cradle to the grave...
it wont change my perspective but i am curious as to how that works within their beliefs.

hahaha!

What you said there is "seek knowledge from the cradle to the grave...but it wont change my perspective[/b]

That is hypocrisy, ignorant behavior and closed mindedness all rolled into one.

What you are saying is that even if you hear the truth you will stick with your pre-conceived beliefs

[marlener]

Kasey don`t you educate urself regularly on things that you would like to know about?If Sacchetto Boutique has a question concerning Christianity then let her ask,people ask about Islam all the time and she responds when she can.I could asnwer the question but seeing that it was posed to Habit& I will allow him to answer if he does not in a timely fashion then I will.
People who don`t believe in the divine search the internet for things that they think may contradict and support what they believe,believe who believe search the scriptures.

[Sacchetto Boutique]

@ kasey, knowledge is power..seek knowledge from the cradle to the grave...
it wont change my perspective but i am curious as to how that works within their beliefs.

hahaha!

What you said there is "seek knowledge from the cradle to the grave...but it wont change my perspective[/b]

That is hypocrisy, ignorant behavior and closed mindedness all rolled into one.

What you are saying is that even if you hear the truth you will stick with your pre-conceived beliefs

u dumber than i thought if thats how u interpret what i typed.

[Habit7]

Habit7, can you explain the Christ died for your sins thing? I dont understand how it works. Can a christian commit a sin and all will be ok bc Christ died for his/ her sins?

We have all sinned, whether it is by breaking the known commandments of God (lying, stealing, lust) or going against our God given conscience. We deserve God's punishment for the sins committed against Him. But God being rich in mercy, sent the Son, who is a person of the Godhead as a man, to live the sinless life we failed to live. And He summited Himself according to the forknown plan of God to die as a sacrifice for the sin of man. Their sin would be placed on Him and He will receive their punishment, and His righteousness would be placed on them and they will receive adoption. He not only died but He rose again to new life. So that if one repents of their sin and puts their faith in His work for the forgiveness of their sins, His actions would be made efficacious to them. In addition not only would their sins be forgiven, but they will have a new mind with new desires to truely please God, just as Christ rose to new life.

During Christ's life He warned of false converts, the wheat and the tares, the sheep and the goats, the wise and the foolish, in parables and even explicitly. There are many who call themselves Christians and fail to demonstrate a new life in their actions. If one professes to be "saved" (from God's punishment) and yet lives a lifestyle of continual unrepentant sin, there is no assurance of their salvation, and quite likely it proves that they are a false convert.

They need religion i.e. a promise of reward/punishment, to keep them in check.

If this is true does it make religion wrong? What system doesn't attempt to keep man in check? Capitalism, Socialism, secular humanism, they all set and ideal and tell you to reach it.

[Sacchetto Boutique]

Ok i thought about it carefully. I think I understand. If a person accepts Jesus (as) as "God", that person's sins will be forgiven since Jesus died to save his followers. The person will be 're-born' with no sin providing that they follow Jesus (as) totally.

I get that however, I disagree that Jesus (as) is God in human form. If God wanted to send himself as a human, why didnt he send himself as Adam, or Moses, or Noah or Jonah. Why 'Jesus'?

I think, if a person were to follow Jesus or any other prophet to live their life the way he lived, that person would infact be a muslim(following ONE God). I do not believe that Jesus ever claimed to be "God". I believe that the original bible was changed over time which resulted in people straying from God's true word and this was corrected in the Quran.

Afaik, the only religion in the world from Adam(as) till Muhammad (saws) was the religion that says "God" is one, supreme being with no relatives, limits or faults.

In the Quran, there are accounts of all the prophets and how they lived their lives and there is mention of how the world was created, how the earth is 'dome' shaped, it even mentions orbiting of the earth and day n night which is found in Surah Yasin - "It is not allowable for the sun to reach the moon, nor does the night overtake the day, but each, in an orbit, is swimming."

These things are in the Quran that is over 1400yrs old.