***The Official Rapid Rail Thread***

[Slartibartfast]

I'm more concerned about the junior secs. What do they expect to happen by putting all of the delinquents in one place? Teachers are doomed from the start and then blamed for their failure. On the other end of the spectrum you have some crappy teachers in prestige schools getting a good rep because the students do a lot of the work on their own.

I thought they got rid of Junior Secs about 6 years ago. The whole deshifting process. All schools are 5 year now. That's why Eldo Junior is now Eldo West.

What they call it now is insignificant.

It kind of matters if Junior Secs no longer exist

All the schools are still there buddy. All of them are still last choice schools. So what if Junior Sec isn't in the name. Or they aren't shift scheduled anymore. I am more concerned with "What do they expect to happen by putting all of the delinquents in one place? Teachers are doomed from the start and then blamed for their failure. On the other end of the spectrum you have some crappy teachers in prestige schools getting a good rep because the students do a lot of the work on their own."

[Slartibartfast]

Its a pity people don't see the value of the additional time they would save if spend less time commuting to and from work, as quality time they could spend with their families.

Very much so...

Let's say you save 1hr in traffic to and from work every day (30 mins instead of 1.5hrs)
That's 2 hrs a day
22 work days in a month means 44 hours a month saved
Times 12 months in the year gives 528 hours a year
divided by 24 give you 22 days saved per year

Now consider that you spend on average about 8 out of 24 hrs sleeping or 1/3 of the day
That means you spend 2/3rds of the day awake
Those 22 days saved are only waking hours which means you really save (22x3/2) 33 days a year.

That means every year you basically get the equivalent of 33 days extra to do whatever you want.

[pugboy]

how is security going to be implemented on a train ?
would hate to get rob on a train

[pete]

My company moved my department up to Arima earlier this year, my commute is now 15km and takes 25 minutes. Port of Spain used to be 25km and last week took me 1hr and 45 minutes at 615am. That extra hour in the morning I use to do exercise and spend time with my family and it really has improved my life tremendously.

Sent from my LG-P880 using Tapatalk

[Redman]

Its a pity people don't see the value of the additional time they would save if spend less time commuting to and from work, as quality time they could spend with their families.

Very much so...

Its a pity so many people view the RR as the ONLY solution

[Slartibartfast]

True. Motorcycles also offer the same benefits wrt time saved and you can't get robbed on a motorcycle

Of course that comes with it's own problems.

[Habit7]

Its a pity so many people view the RR as the ONLY solution

Actually I prefer this

[VII]

how is security going to be implemented on a train ?
would hate to get rob on a train

In the stations,just like an airport scan bro..

Also real time cctv monitoring from trains etc.

[EFFECTIC DESIGNS]

Its a pity people don't see the value of the additional time they would save if spend less time commuting to and from work, as quality time they could spend with their families.

Very much so...

Its a pity so many people view the RR as the ONLY solution

Because the RR is the only solution.

Dr Rowley is an intelligent man, he has 3 degrees from the UWI. People voted him based on a promise to deliver a RR among many other things.

Maybe if you disagreed with the good doctor you should have supported Kamla instead of him, you would of gotten that 500 useless chinese buses that will all break down in 1 year. I doh get trinis nah, support the man 100%, he was very clear on the RR promise, bad talk Kamla 100% then when the man win suddenly we shocked at the RR and we doh want he no more. Amazing!

[Redman]

I guess when you disagree with yuh wife or Sig other...you get a divorce or kick her out.....

What data do you have that indicates that the RR is the only solution.

[EFFECTIC DESIGNS]

^ just look around, buses are obviously not the solution they all park up in city gate broken down, no mechanic, no parts, Volvo and Marcopolo etc has refused to do business with PTSC anymore. Was told monies being owed to these companies is part of the reason. So PTSC cannot get parts the only way is to use parts from other buses now. So thats why you see so many buses being scrapped now. Not to mention PTSC workers always on strike because they are part of a union, most likely the RR could be placed under a different name with new workers, make it work like Airport Authority part government part private where no one is able to strike but they can still be part of a union.

Even worse Air Condition break down in most of these buses aswell, very uncomfortable!!! the Rapid Rail should work with just 1 huge Aircondition unit so if it breaks down is only 1 you have to fix!! Which require less manpower, less parts less of everything.

Everytime PTSC buys new buses its a totally different brand, so using parts from older buses is now out of the question. They going from one Chinese bus to the next, for months I have not seen the bus pass up on my side.

And you seriously buses are the answer? allyuh fellas keep dreaming yes, allyuh really doh use public transport it seems. Redman let me guess, you own a Vehicle yes? or atleast use a company vehicle? As Imbert said those who are against the RR are clearly those who don't have to travel and hence don't know the suffering of a people who depend on public transport.

Before the election even when I was siding with Kamla, I was infact 100% for the Rapid Rail cause I know its the only real solution anybody ever come up with in this country. I get it, people against the RR don't give 2 sheit about loans we chirren hadda repay and all that kinda assness, we is eat ah food culture so doh push that smoke screen on me. Allyuh worried about the fuel subsidy because allyuh know it will be gone to subsidize the RR.

[Dizzy28]

^ just look around, buses are obviously not the solution they all park up in city gate broken down, no mechanic, no parts, Volvo and Marcopolo etc has refused to do business with PTSC anymore. Was told monies being owed to these companies is part of the reason. So PTSC cannot get parts the only way is to use parts from other buses now. So thats why you see so many buses being scrapped now. Not to mention PTSC workers always on strike because they are part of a union, most likely the RR could be placed under a different name with new workers, make it work like Airport Authority part government part private where no one is able to strike but they can still be part of a union.

Even worse Air Condition break down in most of these buses aswell, very uncomfortable!!! the Rapid Rail should work with just 1 huge Aircondition unit so if it breaks down is only 1 you have to fix!! Which require less manpower, less parts less of everything.

Everytime PTSC buys new buses its a totally different brand, so using parts from older buses is now out of the question. They going from one Chinese bus to the next, for months I have not seen the bus pass up on my side.

And you seriously buses are the answer? allyuh fellas keep dreaming yes, allyuh really doh use public transport it seems. Redman let me guess, you own a Vehicle yes? or atleast use a company vehicle?

Seriously are you retarded?

[EFFECTIC DESIGNS]

^ Aah here is the guy I have been waiting for the guy to finally answer the question I have been asking for the longest while, explain to us Dizzy how the AC system in this RR work will.

Since clearly you know more about this you would want to explain to those of us who don't. How will it work, how many compressor etc will it have. the documentary on trails from National Geographic I have seen has clearly deceived me with that 1 cart dedicated to a huge AC system.

[ingalook]

Just because we have mismanaged the bus system in the past does not rule it out from being a potential solution to our transportation woes.

By your logic what possible assurance do you give that rapid rail will not be a failure? YOU CAN GIVE NONE

The difference is the failure of a revamped BRT service will cost the country less than $500 million, while the cost of a failed RR will be $10+ BILLION... hell, we could have implemented BRT with the money we spent on the FEASIBILITY STUDY for your hallowed RR

Couple that with the fact that BRT could be implemented inside a year vs the 5+ years or so for RR and you start to look like you are truly misguided in your support of RR

[EFFECTIC DESIGNS]

^ Quick question, how come the water taxi is not a failure and works so well compared to the Bus service?

[ingalook]

Because we can properly maintain and manage a service if we actually try

[EFFECTIC DESIGNS]

^ check this article I found, "the-silly-argument-over-brt-and-rail"

Keep in mind we cannot manage a bus service in Trinidad and major companies refuse to do business with PTSC anymore. So unless you fire the whole PTSC staff and start over from scratch with preventing union interference, a bus service will never work in Trinidad. But his article is a good read.

http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2011 ... -and-rail/



Reserving respect for each mode.

As if operating in parallel, Toronto’s Globe and Mail and The Wall Street Journal each published articles last week describing the merits of bus rapid transit, which each newspaper described as the future of urban transportation.

Both noted that BRT was cheaper to construct than rail lines. Each suggested that in an age of government pull backs and general skepticism over the value of public investment, BRT could offer substantial benefits to a transit system at a reasonable price. And each article concluded with a warning by rail proponents that buses wouldn’t be able to attract people out of their cars.

This is a sensationalized opposition between two modes of transportation that should be thought of as complementary. There are advantages to improved bus service in some corridors, reasons to support rail in others.

What is clear is that for the majority of American cities — excluding only a few in the Northeast — buses will remain the predominant mode of public transit for most riders, even after major expansions in train networks planned for cities from Charlotte to Phoenix. So even cities that choose to invest in rail projects must also spend on the improvement of their bus lines.

Nor is the difference in costs between rail lines and BRT nearly as great as some would argue. The Journal article quotes Dennis Hinebaugh, head of a transportation center at the University of South Florida, saying “You can build up to 10 BRT lines for the cost of one light-rail line.” That might be true if you’re comparing a train operating entirely in its own right-of-way with a bus running in a lane painted on the street. But a streetcar is probably cheaper than a busway. Just ask Hartford, whose busway project will cost $60 million a mile to build.

Just as importantly, the argument made in the Journal by Simon Fraser University Professor Anthony Perl Pearl that “Rail has a proven record of being able to take people of their cars; buses don’t,” is quite frankly premised on antiquated views about the differences between buses and trains. A well thought-through BRT line, operating in its own right-of-way, can offer riders most, and sometimes more, of the comfort, convenience, and accessibility of a rail line.

The Globe and Mail notes that “LRT advocates often argue that light rail has better interaction with the streetscape and is a better way of achieving dense, transit-oriented development than BRT,” and indeed, that point is frequently made. But plenty of vibrant neighborhoods in American cities have developed just fine without rail. The City of Seattle, whose first modern light rail line opened in 2009, nevertheless has been densifying for decades, increasing in population from 494,000 in 1980 to 609,000 in 2010 (with no annexation).

The best argument for rail is that it has the ability to provide massive rush-hour passenger-carrying capacity without destroying the city through which it runs. Whether buried in a subway or operating quietly along in grassy medians, trains can be integrated into the public realm without diminishing the pedestrian-friendly qualities all urbanists should hope to encourage. BRT boosters often argue that their mode of choice can carry a similar number of riders, but neglect to mention that this is only possible when buses arrive every 10 seconds along highway-like four-lane corridors. These are conditions that destroy the walking environment.

Fortunately for American cities looking to invest in new public transportation infrastructure, there are few places that demand the passenger-carrying capacity provided by those freeway-based BRT lines in places like Bogotá. In most metropolitan areas, a two-lane busway inserted on an arterial is perfectly appropriate and sometimes even beneficial for a city. Indeed, as we all know, the story that is too complicated for any mainstream paper to explain is that BRT can mean any number of things. The most rudimentary elements of BRT — the nice buses, the well-articulated stops, the traffic signal priority — are basics we should expect from all of our bus lines. Pushing for their implementation along certain corridors shouldn’t arouse much controversy.

But these points are rarely discussed when the argument between modes are made.

The real divisions between bus and rail are political: For those who would fight for improved transit systems in their cities, the truth is that rail projects do certainly have more appeal among members of the public. Thus a billion-dollar rail project may be easier to stomach for a taxpaying and voting member of the citizenry than a quarter-billion BRT line. While the former is qualitatively different than what most car drivers are used to, the latter mode is too easily lumped in with the city bus, which car users have already paid to avoid.

Better transit can come in many forms, but in a country in which the vast majority of people have no contact with public transportation this side of Disney World, making the argument for investments in more buses is difficult, to say the least. BRT is just not sexy until you’ve experienced it. Which is why the considerable success of BRT in South America has not convinced many U.S. cities to abandon their ambitions for more rail.

[pugboy]

And during trips between stations ?

how is security going to be implemented on a train ?
would hate to get rob on a train

In the stations,just like an airport scan bro..

Also real time cctv monitoring from trains etc.

[ingalook]

The article points out that BRT is not "sexy" that may be... neither was the water taxi, people ride it because it is reliable, comfortable, fast and they arrive at their destination rested.

I remember begging my wife for 2 weeks to to try the water taxi, she was very hesitant because she worried about motion sickness. She literally tried the service once and was hooked... so much so that she has said that if the service is stopped she may have to quit her job.

This could be the case with BRT it will take awhile for people to try it but once they do they are likely to become reliant on it. Admittedly RR is "sexy" and everyone will want to try it, but over time through positive word of mouth and some marketing usage of BRT will reach about the same percentage of people.

The massive difference remains cost

[VII]

And during trips between stations ?

how is security going to be implemented on a train ?
would hate to get rob on a train

In the stations,just like an airport scan bro..

Also real time cctv monitoring from trains etc.

Well theoretically they should only stop at stations,so stations could actually be a great collection/interception point for possible offenders,unless they gonna jump off a speeding train.

[pugboy]

So u jump on a train with say 3 guys
And when it roll off they rob you then run off at the
Next stop while u holding a busshead

[VII]

So u jump on a train with say 3 guys
And when it roll off they rob you then run off at the
Next stop while u holding a busshead

Then we back to the good old days!! Sounds like a good old fashioned London mugging..


But seriously,remember they still have to pass through the station channels to get out ok.

How many people do you hear getting robbed on ptsc buses and the perps running out and through a station anyway? Also these wouldn't be just open platforms onto a road,commuters would have to pass through controlled channels/funnels.

[Habit7]

So u jump on a train with say 3 guys
And when it roll off they rob you then run off at the
Next stop while u holding a busshead

To enter station you will pass through a corridor of CCTV, even the car might have CCTV. It would be idiotic to mug somebody on a train. There are already retired police officers used as security of articulating buses, nothing stopping expanding the transit police to be on the train, like other countries, we wont be the first to deal with this problem.

The article points out that BRT is not "sexy" that may be... neither was the water taxi, people ride it because it is reliable, comfortable, fast and they arrive at their destination rested.

WT was always sexy. http://www.trinidadexpress.com/news/1-H ... 25249.html

If WT closes why doesn't your wife see the Deluxe Coach as an option? Since she doesn't, what makes you think she will take a BRT?

[EFFECTIC DESIGNS]

Deluxe Coach is likely on its last limb anyways. They started using it for Piarco - POS service something never done before, when I inquired about it the driver told me they are now considered old and no longer considered reliable enough for the $20 Sando to POS no stop trip. It is supposed to be an executive service of the sort different from other bus service hence the price.

PTSC no longer buys these coach buses for whatever odd reason. Should we cancel the RR and buy more bus bet your bottom dollar its going to be cheap chinese buses. Yes its true if you bought proper coach buses, Volvo, Mercedes Benz etc. We would have an alternative to the RR, but that is never going to happen, to top it off many of these companies has blacklisted PTSC "from what a PTSC manager told me"

So this talk about a world class bus service as an alternative to RR is never going to happen even if the Government wanted to. For bus service to work, PTSC has to shut down and replace with part government part private company, sell out all the current buses and replace with brand new world class Euro / Brazil buses. Get drivers who do the right thing and not allow their 1 million friends to come on the bus without a ticket.

But even then we would still not have the fast point a to point b service you would get from a rail. You would have to build a completely new road network specifically for these new buses, to avoid traffic. In which case you are better off building a rail seeing how much a new highway costs to begin with. So its as habit7 says, you doing something do it good and done, its a one time investment, get something good and done where future generations would be able to utilize.

[pete]

For the commuter what is the difference between a Chinese and European? If you can buy 2x as many Chinese buses at the same price wouldn't it make more sense to do that?

One way to get more buses would also be to allow companies to buy and operate them(like the Maxi taxis now). Have them tender for the routes and make them keep to a schedule with quarterly reviews wrt increasing capacity or decreasing capacity at various times. I guess people might have a problem with one company making a lot of money off of the service but it's one way to do it. Also it should be done on a schedule and not the "We leave when its full" way maxis operate.

Lots of technology available now to track buses so you could stand at a bus stop and see when the next bus to your location would arrive via apps, get routing information so you can plan your whole trip if you need to move from one bus to another. Could have electronic bus passes with discounts for monthly/annual passes etc etc.

[Daran]

EFFECTIC DESIGNS,

Have you ever been outside of Trinidad? Buses provide are extremely reliable and quick service throughout most of Europe, and especially in the UK. Frequent service buses cover areas of usually 10 to 30km radius (with some intercity links covering longer distances). Buses and trains are meant to compliment each other there.

You need to ask yourself what is PTSC doing wrong. Look at the personnel and unions. Privatize the bus service and introduce penalties if timetable schedules are not met. You'll see how quickly things turn around.

An effective traffic plan for Trinidad requires many changes. The Rapid Rail is like a brute force solution with ultimately very high risks.

Do you know the entire project plan for the rapid rail is almost 10 years? I'm pretty sure the cost will double, the timeline for completion will exceed what was planned and the project scope will be reduced along the way.

And in the mean time what are we going to do?

Easy:
- Replace maxis with organized shuttle systems and designated bus stops (no more F*cking stopping where ever they please. A few years back I did a stochastic analysis of that start stop behavior of maxis and the resultant effect on traffic was horrendous)
- Investigate all bottle necks and introduce flyovers/tunnels/overpasses/roundabouts
- Use intelligent traffic lights that can sense traffic and give priority to the major roads while anticipating impacts in upcoming bottlenecks
- Offer comfortable rapid (little or no stops) intercity links
- Use bus stop timers at major stops so passengers can see how far away their next bus is
- School bus shuttles
- Mandatory staggered company hours
- Encourage private business to decentralize

A combination or all of the above will be exponentially cheaper, create more jobs and far less havoc on our infrastructure.

Don't get me wrong though, the Rapid Rail would be very very nice to have, but it aint solving many of existing traffic problems. Meaning, it's far from the best solution to our traffic woes.

[Cantmis]

hope nothing like this occurs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

[bluesclues]

True. Motorcycles also offer the same benefits wrt time saved and you can't get robbed on a motorcycle

Of course that comes with it's own problems.

yeah.. leh we start a rapid motorcycle taxi service nah? lol

[EFFECTIC DESIGNS]

^ Pete, the European buses have better acceleration for all those frequent stops you are making the better engineered buses makes the whole trip a lot faster, travel in a Volvo then in a Chiney bus and see the difference even those old Volvo buses PTSC has is significantly quicker than Chinese bus. And as an added bonus the Volvo can stop incredibly fast even at top speed where as the Chinese bus would kill everyone.

The Chinese bus break down often, you get stuck half way when it reach a traffic light and shut down. When last you see Volvo or Mercedes Benz or Thomas bus shut down? Chinese buses the doors can't even close half the time frequently having the driver remain parked longer trying to close the door because the AC cold air escaping. The Chinese bus rotten very quickly, looks like cheap junk quickly. They look ugly compared to Euro buses, the list goes on.

Yes you get 2 Chiney bus for 1 Volvo but again you get what you pay for. If you really serious about alternative to RR you talking a lot of money for a PROPER first world BRT, its own dedicated road network etc.

By the time you done you would have been better off building a Rail which would still be quicker than even the best Bus Service.

[EFFECTIC DESIGNS]

EFFECTIC DESIGNS,

Have you ever been outside of Trinidad? Buses provide are extremely reliable and quick service throughout most of Europe, and especially in the UK. Frequent service buses cover areas of usually 10 to 30km radius (with some intercity links covering longer distances). Buses and trains are meant to compliment each other there.

You need to ask yourself what is PTSC doing wrong. Look at the personnel and unions. Privatize the bus service and introduce penalties if timetable schedules are not met. You'll see how quickly things turn around.

An effective traffic plan for Trinidad requires many changes. The Rapid Rail is like a brute force solution with ultimately very high risks.

Do you know the entire project plan for the rapid rail is almost 10 years? I'm pretty sure the cost will double, the timeline for completion will exceed what was planned and the project scope will be reduced along the way.

And in the mean time what are we going to do?

Easy:
- Replace maxis with organized shuttle systems and designated bus stops (no more F*cking stopping where ever they please. A few years back I did a stochastic analysis of that start stop behavior of maxis and the resultant effect on traffic was horrendous)
- Investigate all bottle necks and introduce flyovers/tunnels/overpasses/roundabouts
- Use intelligent traffic lights that can sense traffic and give priority to the major roads while anticipating impacts in upcoming bottlenecks
- Offer comfortable rapid (little or no stops) intercity links
- Use bus stop timers at major stops so passengers can see how far away their next bus is
- School bus shuttles
- Mandatory staggered company hours
- Encourage private business to decentralize

A combination or all of the above will be exponentially cheaper, create more jobs and far less havoc on our infrastructure.

Don't get me wrong though, the Rapid Rail would be very very nice to have, but it aint solving many of existing traffic problems. Meaning, it's far from the best solution to our traffic woes.

Yes as a person who use the bus service I can defenitely say you make a very good case,
I can also provide a lot of first hand experience of this company. The biggest issue right now with public transport isn't the lack of a Rail but its the horrible 3rd world service of PTSC and its management.

Then look at Maxi Taxi, if you try to travel from Arima to POS well brother, the amount of stops the people make, you hear passengers cussing the driver, they would park up at lights and literally wait and wait 7 minutes to see how much passengers they get. Its really a disgusting experience, the alternative is PTSC which is faster but they are not reliable at all.

The amount of time I waited in City Gate for a bus that was 1 hour late sometimes 3 hours late if you waiting for the Piarco Bus. Every person who looks 60 years old using the bus free, every school child uses it free. Drivers allowing their million and 1 friends to use the bus free, never having mechanic to service simple things like the AC filter in the Bus. Bus not getting Brake, gear can't change, workers on strike.

AND BEST OF ALL "SORRY TO INFORM YOU WE HAVE NO WORKING BUSES AVAILABLE"!!!!!!!!!!

When you ask management, "we have no parts to service the bus" "Bus manufacturer won't do business with us anymore" and the list goes on.

If it is we want a Bus service to work in this country, PTSC has to be privatized, and you have to prevent Union involvement. Otherwise any talk about Bus service inplace of RR is a pipe dream but which government even going and do anything with PTSC? thats like asking the government to privatise Port Authority and that never gonna happen.